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Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?

You don't want all sentient life to die? Very disappointed in you.

Of course not. Some of the birds are ok

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 12:30:16


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Going back to the OP's question about Chapter VS Chapter. I don't think it's something that you can easily quantify and personal bias plays heavily into it.
I play Deathwatch who have all sorts of weapons and ammo designed to melt through a Carnifex or burn a target inside to out. Add to that the huge number of Watch Fortresses with unknown numbers of Astartes and it kind of means by default the Deathwatch would win, right? But then the Deathwatch doesn't operate like a normal Chapter and each Watch Fortress is basically a Chapter unto itself.
Each Chapter has its strengths and weaknesses.
My biggest gripe about the Minotaurs is that they never seem to have a weakness outside of "the High Lords tell them what to do". Moloc is such a great warrior even the Custodes know of him, the Minotaurs never seem to lose a battle/war. It reads like bad fanfiction IMO. At least the Carcharadons have super rage they need to control and exist basically in exile, reducing their effectiveness.
   
Made in eu
Dakka Veteran




 Gert wrote:
Going back to the OP's question about Chapter VS Chapter. I don't think it's something that you can easily quantify and personal bias plays heavily into it.
I play Deathwatch who have all sorts of weapons and ammo designed to melt through a Carnifex or burn a target inside to out. Add to that the huge number of Watch Fortresses with unknown numbers of Astartes and it kind of means by default the Deathwatch would win, right? But then the Deathwatch doesn't operate like a normal Chapter and each Watch Fortress is basically a Chapter unto itself.
Each Chapter has its strengths and weaknesses.
My biggest gripe about the Minotaurs is that they never seem to have a weakness outside of "the High Lords tell them what to do". Moloc is such a great warrior even the Custodes know of him, the Minotaurs never seem to lose a battle/war. It reads like bad fanfiction IMO. At least the Carcharadons have super rage they need to control and exist basically in exile, reducing their effectiveness.


The Minotaurs are massive douchebags though and virtually nobody in the lore likes them or wants to work with them. Maybe that's their negative?
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The problem is the behaviour of the Minotaurs never seems to result in an actual negative. Oh no, they're banned from Ultramar, which doesn't actually need them because the Ultramarines and like 20 of their Successors have their homeworlds within the 500 Worlds. Most Chapters hate them because they're puppets of the High Lords, oh well here's loads of brilliant equipment and priceless relics.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony



   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:
You've shown them before. The problem is that they don't claim what you've said.

It claims that mutation is common. This is evident, but it doesn't imply that the eradication of all mutation is, and where it does explain what a "mutation" is, they refer to entirely fictional and particularly outlandish cases - not "disabled kids".

Additionally, if the Imperium institutionally killed "mutants" at birth, that wouldn't explain the line of "another thousand that dwell hidden in the shadows" - nor would it explain such phenomena as the irradiated and near-crippled populace of Baal, or the Van Saar gangs, or really *any* of the countless dozens of disabled citizens we see in the various fictions.

It simply isn't true what you claim that the Imperium is institutionally genocidal of *all* mutations.

So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.
No it doesn't. If it was killing babies with cleft palettes, how come "thousands dwell hidden in the shadows"? Moreover, the only mutations it specifically calls out are outrageous fantastical ones. Not "mundane" ones.

Look, you're either trolling, or deliberately misrepresenting stuff to prove some kind of point, but it's pretty dull, whatever it is.


Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.
Would you care to voice that reason, instead of playing coy?


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.
Does someone who unironically likes Tyranids want to consume all biomass and devour the very stars themselves?

While I myself am *very* critical of anyone who sees the Imperium as "good" or "justified" or in any way an "ideal" society, you can *enjoy* a fictional faction without supporting it in the real world, and this almost certainly doesn't apply to all factions, because that would be ridiculous.
The issue is when their enjoyment of fictional toy soldiers starts manifesting in their real world actions and behaviours.

But, hey, if you want to call all Imperial players fascists, please, do so with your whole chest, instead of hiding behind these coy, sly slights. Make your opinions known, if you believe them so strongly.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Arcanis161 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony





Nah, I know exactly what it means. Read your own definitions again.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.

No, I did not collect Necrons for over a decade out of irony nor because I think omnicide is good
It's almost as if your stance is absurd to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 19:00:18


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony





Nah, I know exactly what it means. Read your own definitions again.


No, by all means, enlighten us "uneducated simpletons". I insist.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.

No, I did not collect Necrons for over a decade out of irony nor because I think omnicide is good
It's almost as if your stance is absurd to begin with.

I like Necrons because I like the spooky undead faction basically whenever that's an option. My nihilistic desire for the extinction of all life is unrelated
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Arcanis161 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.

I dislike violence and loud noises.
I play Orks.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.

I dislike violence and loud noises.
I play Orks.


Apparently you both can't unironically enjoy those factions then, because Hecaton knows better than you why you want to play those factions.

At this point I am almost convinced that Hecaton is just a massive troll.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




Andykp wrote:
That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.


So you're saying you unironically like those factions and find them interesting? Like you actually enjoy playing and collecting them and even maybe enjoy their lore?
Well then let me tell you that you are not only violent (orks) but also a fascist (marines, guard), into omnicide and nihilism (necrons) and into religious dogma (admech)....oh and apparently you are a racist, cause why not....

So even if you tell me that you have a nuanced view of the setting and you do not actually support fascism for playing marines because you are not an idiot, I won't believe you, because I know better than you what you think and what your worldviews are.
*Hecaton in a nutshell*

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 22:32:31


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





If we're diving down this rabbit hole, I'm a socialist-humanist agnostic-atheist anti-warite. But as I can separate fantasy from reality, I can entertain an idea without accepting it.

I can play make believe and pretend without buying into or ironically accepting the premise on which said make-believe is built. I have no problem consuming fantasy horror and fantasy war without it either reflecting my values or requiring an ironic hypocrisy of my values.

Many people wish to stare at a car accident as they go by, and it has nothing to do with wanting car accidents to happen or ironically accepting car accidents happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 02:53:03


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Necrons don’t want to wipe out all life though, do they?

They want to reverse bio-transference. Without a suitable host species, that’s just not going to happen. So wiping out all life is big trouble.

Hence The Silent King turned back from his exile when he encountered the Tyranids in the void.

If he wanted all biological life exterminated? Why bother, just leave it to the Nids, and rule over the wasteland they leave once the Galaxy is consumed - given they don’t tend to scoff metals.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Depends on the Cron I guess. Some a happy with being immortal murder machines, some aren't.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Szarekh wants to reverse bio-transference, the Sautekh are mostly concerned with reclaiming the old empire, the Novokh are murder machines with unique frenzy protocols that activate when they sense blood. As much if not more diversity in goals among the Necrons as any other faction, really.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Tiberias wrote:
Andykp wrote:
That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.


So you're saying you unironically like those factions and find them interesting? Like you actually enjoy playing and collecting them and even maybe enjoy their lore?
Well then let me tell you that you are not only violent (orks) but also a fascist (marines, guard), into omnicide and nihilism (necrons) and into religious dogma (admech)....oh and apparently you are a racist, cause why not....

So even if you tell me that you have a nuanced view of the setting and you do not actually support fascism for playing marines because you are not an idiot, I won't believe you, because I know better than you what you think and what your worldviews are.
*Hecaton in a nutshell*


Well that makes me sound pretty complex! What are you if you play demons I wonder?
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Necrons don’t want to wipe out all life though, do they?

They want to reverse bio-transference. Without a suitable host species, that’s just not going to happen. So wiping out all life is big trouble.

Hence The Silent King turned back from his exile when he encountered the Tyranids in the void.

If he wanted all biological life exterminated? Why bother, just leave it to the Nids, and rule over the wasteland they leave once the Galaxy is consumed - given they don’t tend to scoff metals.

They did when I started them
Although "wipe out all life" isn't exactly accurate per se.
A more accurate description of their MO was "prepare the galaxy to be the C'tan's all you can eat buffet"
If the Tyranids were locusts out to eat everyone, Necrons were factory farmers. It also explained why the Necrons would bother fighting nids - the bugs are killing the C'tan's livestock.

But yes, Wardcrons are mostly into reversing biotransference. Although there are subfactions who still want to wipe out life (such as the Destroyer Cults), those are a minority.
The plot-lines about C'tan aiming to harvest all life, creating new generations of Necrons (Pariahs) and separating off the galaxy from the Warp were all dropped, which is a pity because those were freaky as hell. The last page of the 3rd ed codex tells of an Eldar vision about what would happen if the C'tan win, and it's pretty disturbing.

C'tan were really evil and a huge threat in 3rd ed. They didn't want to eat people because they needed to, the codex made it clear that the C'tan's natural food source, stars, were enough for them. They wanted to drain life because it was tasty. They were the Vampires Counts of the setting, right down to having a superiority complex.
Then GW made them into bloody pokemon

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 01:06:10


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Having played Necrons in 5th when that new Codex came out, that doesn't really track with the book. Most Necrons were fine with the Biotransference but not with the C'tan using their meat bodies as food which they saw as just a bit rude. Imotehk very much doesn't want to reverse the procedure and most Necrons seem to be the same. Anrakyr the Traveller seems to just vibe, Trazyn uses his long life to be a general prat and giant nerd, Zandrehk and Obyron are awesome, Szeras likes cutting people up. There are some Necrons that regret the procedure but most are insane or are doing really not nice experiments on squishies.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Having played Necrons in 5th when that new Codex came out, that doesn't really track with the book. Most Necrons were fine with the Biotransference but not with the C'tan using their meat bodies as food which they saw as just a bit rude. Imotehk very much doesn't want to reverse the procedure and most Necrons seem to be the same. Anrakyr the Traveller seems to just vibe, Trazyn uses his long life to be a general prat and giant nerd, Zandrehk and Obyron are awesome, Szeras likes cutting people up. There are some Necrons that regret the procedure but most are insane or are doing really not nice experiments on squishies.

I'll have to dig the 5th ed codex and reread it then. I could have sworn there was some passage about attempts to reverse bio-transference. Might have just been in reference to the Silent King.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Hellebore wrote:
If we're diving down this rabbit hole, I'm a socialist-humanist agnostic-atheist anti-warite. But as I can separate fantasy from reality, I can entertain an idea without accepting it.

I can play make believe and pretend without buying into or ironically accepting the premise on which said make-believe is built. I have no problem consuming fantasy horror and fantasy war without it either reflecting my values or requiring an ironic hypocrisy of my values.

Many people wish to stare at a car accident as they go by, and it has nothing to do with wanting car accidents to happen or ironically accepting car accidents happen.


It's not an ironic hypocrisy of your values, per se, but enjoying the fethed-up antihumanist setting that 40k is needs a healthy dose of irony for any well-adjusted person.
   
 
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