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I have heard Blood Angels being the number 1 followed by Space Wolves and White Scars.

And then the least gifted psychically is Imperial Fists successors.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Blood Ravens clearly, but that'll happen if your the sons of the sons whose pop did nothing wrong...

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The Blood Ravens aren't confirmed Successors of anyone, it was one line in a short story then it became internet "common knowledge". The individual who the short story was about became Janus of the Grey Knights, not the founder of the Blood Ravens.
None of the First Founding Chapters had any irregular numbers of Psykers in their ranks and while there was a Successor Chapter that did have a large amount of Psykers, that was due to their recruiting worlds population than any genetic reasons.
The Ultramarines and Blood Angels both have very powerful Psykers in Tigirius and Mephiston but a lot of that comes from experience and training as well as raw power.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gert wrote:
The Blood Ravens aren't confirmed Successors of anyone, it was one line in a short story then it became internet "common knowledge". The individual who the short story was about became Janus of the Grey Knights, not the founder of the Blood Ravens.
None of the First Founding Chapters had any irregular numbers of Psykers in their ranks and while there was a Successor Chapter that did have a large amount of Psykers, that was due to their recruiting worlds population than any genetic reasons.
The Ultramarines and Blood Angels both have very powerful Psykers in Tigirius and Mephiston but a lot of that comes from experience and training as well as raw power.


although blood angels and ul;tramarines also have something in common in that both tend to value knowledge book learning etc and are noted for keeping libraries. makes you wonder if reading and recording books etc tends to help put you in a good mind to use psykic powers well.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't think there are any first founding legions where it can be said that their successors in general have more psykers across the board. There are specific successor chapters that have a high number of psykers, but there is such a degree of variation between successor chapters that I don't think it is really possible to generalise in this way.

Some successor chapters are very different from their ancestral legion.

As for successor chapters with lots of psykers, as mentioned the Blood Ravens are the obvious one, but the First founding legion they come from isn't confirmed, as mentioned above, and even if they are a successor of the Thousand sons, a sample of one is hardly enough to establish a pattern.

The Exorcists for instance have a lot of psykers IIRC, and are Imperial fists successors, but then again Black Templars are also Imperial Fist successors and have no psykers.

Generalising, it seems that the stock a chapter recruits from is a bigger factor in the number of psykers in a chapter than the geneseed used.
   
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






BrianDavion wrote:

although blood angels and ul;tramarines also have something in common in that both tend to value knowledge book learning etc and are noted for keeping libraries. makes you wonder if reading and recording books etc tends to help put you in a good mind to use psykic powers well.

Scholarly work tends to be something akin to meditation and mental training for Librarians, so for them sitting down and reading/writing the histories of the Chapter helps train their mind. Astartes have close to photographic memory IIRC so the more a Librarian reads, the more knowledge they have access to. For example, the Chronicles of Ursh is a noted example of a book that mentions Daemon-creatures and how to bind/destroy them so if a Librarian needed to banish a Daemon they could call upon the knowledge of that book, even if the book itself was hyperbole and anecdotal, as Daemons pretty much exist within those definitions.
   
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The Shire(s)

The Blood Angels are the only loyalist Chapter to have a psychic primarch IIRC, so I would not be surprised if they generally had more adept psykers, although as noted not greater numbers of them.

Blood Angels and their successors are the only Chapters to field Librarian-Dreadnoughts, so there may be some truth to them being especially gifted in the psychic arts.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Technically all of the Primarchs were Psykers but it manifested in the form of Super Charisma for most of them.
Sanguinius and Kurze's foresight was not a Warp ability either at least not in the same way as TSons Corvidae used the Warp to scry the future.
The Librarian Dreadnoughts AFAIK is just because BA got a special Dreadnought kit and GW added more options, in-universe there doesn't really seem to be a real explanation for why the BA have them and others don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 15:11:48


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





@ Gert, yep the 1k Sons thing has become a tad over exposed but can imagine them sticky fingered Ravens 'discovering' 'lost' caches of geneseed from many chapters which admittedly isnt really doable with team dust in a can

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Aren’t the grey knights the most psychic of all space marines?
   
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Exalted Beastlord




mrFickle wrote:
Aren’t the grey knights the most psychic of all space marines?


Yes, but by recruitment (of only powerful psykers) and brutal murder of failed aspirants (failed meaning lack of talent or arbitrary 'purity'), not by some quality of their geneseed or their training.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Yes but their gene-seed is derived from the Emperor, not the Primarchs. They didn't come from one of the 9 Loyalist Legions.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Yes but their gene-seed is derived from the Emperor, not the Primarchs. They didn't come from one of the 9 Loyalist Legions.


I've yet to see this stated definitively. I put this in the same category as Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors, hinted at but by no means certain. Besides, not relevant to the topic of this thread, Grey Knights don't have successors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Aash wrote:
I don't think there are any first founding legions where it can be said that their successors in general have more psykers across the board. There are specific successor chapters that have a high number of psykers, but there is such a degree of variation between successor chapters that I don't think it is really possible to generalise in this way.

Some successor chapters are very different from their ancestral legion.

As for successor chapters with lots of psykers, as mentioned the Blood Ravens are the obvious one, but the First founding legion they come from isn't confirmed, as mentioned above, and even if they are a successor of the Thousand sons, a sample of one is hardly enough to establish a pattern.

The Exorcists for instance have a lot of psykers IIRC, and are Imperial fists successors, but then again Black Templars are also Imperial Fist successors and have no psykers.

Generalising, it seems that the stock a chapter recruits from is a bigger factor in the number of psykers in a chapter than the geneseed used.


This. Well put. You have chapters like the Blood Ravens and the Silver Skulls who field more psykers than usual and whose psykers are more central to their battle plans/organization. But as far as I'm aware, there isn't any one loyalist primarch whose geneseed is confirmed to be especially prone to producing psykers or stronger psykers.

And what even counts as a "psychic ability" is a bit of a gray area. Raven Guard stealth has been described as supernatural-ish in some stories. Space Wolves seem to be able to manipulate the warp (albeit in the form of shutting down psychic powers) by carrying around severed wolf tails. Exorcists have full on flash supernatural effects that "aren't" psychic powers for some reason.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Wyldhunt wrote:
Aash wrote:
I don't think there are any first founding legions where it can be said that their successors in general have more psykers across the board. There are specific successor chapters that have a high number of psykers, but there is such a degree of variation between successor chapters that I don't think it is really possible to generalise in this way.

Some successor chapters are very different from their ancestral legion.

As for successor chapters with lots of psykers, as mentioned the Blood Ravens are the obvious one, but the First founding legion they come from isn't confirmed, as mentioned above, and even if they are a successor of the Thousand sons, a sample of one is hardly enough to establish a pattern.

The Exorcists for instance have a lot of psykers IIRC, and are Imperial fists successors, but then again Black Templars are also Imperial Fist successors and have no psykers.

Generalising, it seems that the stock a chapter recruits from is a bigger factor in the number of psykers in a chapter than the geneseed used.


This. Well put. You have chapters like the Blood Ravens and the Silver Skulls who field more psykers than usual and whose psykers are more central to their battle plans/organization. But as far as I'm aware, there isn't any one loyalist primarch whose geneseed is confirmed to be especially prone to producing psykers or stronger psykers.

And what even counts as a "psychic ability" is a bit of a gray area. Raven Guard stealth has been described as supernatural-ish in some stories. Space Wolves seem to be able to manipulate the warp (albeit in the form of shutting down psychic powers) by carrying around severed wolf tails. Exorcists have full on flash supernatural effects that "aren't" psychic powers for some reason.


the wolf tails may not be a psykic ability in and of itself... rather there's some evidance that a strong eneugh sense of faith can protect you from the warp. so the wolf tail talismens protect space wolves because they belive they will

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Aash wrote:

I've yet to see this stated definitively. I put this in the same category as Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors, hinted at but by no means certain. Besides, not relevant to the topic of this thread, Grey Knights don't have successors.

Its not ambiguous, its been in their background since 5th Edition and is known as "the Emperor's Gift". It's relevant because someone pointed out the GK were the Psyker Chapter.
   
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Been Around the Block





Blood Ravens.
   
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The Blood Ravens aren't a confirmed Successor and considering their hunt for knowledge (both of their Founders and in general) it makes sense they would have a large Librarius.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Aash wrote:

I've yet to see this stated definitively. I put this in the same category as Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors, hinted at but by no means certain. Besides, not relevant to the topic of this thread, Grey Knights don't have successors.

Its not ambiguous, its been in their background since 5th Edition and is known as "the Emperor's Gift". It's relevant because someone pointed out the GK were the Psyker Chapter.


I'd be happy to be corrected, but I understood that the GKs referred to their geneseed as the "Emperor's Gift" and that assumptions are made that it is somehow directly from the Emperor, but I don't believe that has been categorically established. Especially given the HH novels depiction of the foundation of the GKs, it seems unlikely that any GKs, including the founding members, are fully aware of the source of their geneseed.

To say that geneseed is derived from the Emperor is true for all SMs in the sense that the Primarchs were created using The Emperor and Erda's genome. In this way the Primarchs can be thought of as the Emperor's sons (and often are), and the SMs are in effect his grandchildren.

I understand that the Primarchs are all derived from a single Primarch gene-matrix which was then altered to make the individual Primarchs (additional canid genes for Russ etc). The Space Marines from each legion were created using geneseed derived from their Primarch's gene matrices (some of which needed additional genetic information/material from the Primarch once recovered in order to stabilise the geneseed).

I think it much more plausible that the GKs geneseed is derived from this unaltered, original Primarch matrix rather than directly from from the Emperor himself. I also seem to remember it suggested that the "Emperor's Gift" wasn't in reference to the geneseed at all, but to the psychic protection against corruption that GKs seem to enjoy.
   
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Aash wrote:

I'd be happy to be corrected, but I understood that the GKs referred to their geneseed as the "Emperor's Gift" and that assumptions are made that it is somehow directly from the Emperor, but I don't believe that has been categorically established. Especially given the HH novels depiction of the foundation of the GKs, it seems unlikely that any GKs, including the founding members, are fully aware of the source of their geneseed.

The original 8 Grandmasters had their gene-seed replaced by new ones created from the Emperor and all Grey Knight gene-seed is the same "pure" stock. The original 8 even met the Emperor before being transported to Titan just before the Siege of Terra.
Its only outsiders that believe the "Emperor's Gift" nickname is a boast or jest.

To say that geneseed is derived from the Emperor is true for all SMs in the sense that the Primarchs were created using The Emperor and Erda's genome. In this way the Primarchs can be thought of as the Emperor's sons (and often are), and the SMs are in effect his grandchildren.

The difference being that the Primarchs are diluted versions of the Emperor and regular Astartes are diluted versions of the Primarchs. The Grey Knights are Astartes but do not use a Primarch for their source of gene-seed so the connection to the Emperor is far greater. None of the Primarchs are truly His sons because they only share some genetic similarities, they were essentially made from alchemy.

I think it much more plausible that the GKs geneseed is derived from this unaltered, original Primarch matrix rather than directly from from the Emperor himself. I also seem to remember it suggested that the "Emperor's Gift" wasn't in reference to the geneseed at all, but to the psychic protection against corruption that GKs seem to enjoy.

Except its been a fact in the Codexes from 5th to 8th and likely 9th that their gene-seed is derived from the Emperor. Its not a case of "We don't know it could be many reasons". It's very much confirmed they use the Emperor as their genetic source, IIRC its one of the reasons why people didn't like the Grey Knight background because they were so pure and perfect.
   
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Spoiler:
 Gert wrote:
Aash wrote:

I'd be happy to be corrected, but I understood that the GKs referred to their geneseed as the "Emperor's Gift" and that assumptions are made that it is somehow directly from the Emperor, but I don't believe that has been categorically established. Especially given the HH novels depiction of the foundation of the GKs, it seems unlikely that any GKs, including the founding members, are fully aware of the source of their geneseed.

The original 8 Grandmasters had their gene-seed replaced by new ones created from the Emperor and all Grey Knight gene-seed is the same "pure" stock. The original 8 even met the Emperor before being transported to Titan just before the Siege of Terra.
Its only outsiders that believe the "Emperor's Gift" nickname is a boast or jest.

To say that geneseed is derived from the Emperor is true for all SMs in the sense that the Primarchs were created using The Emperor and Erda's genome. In this way the Primarchs can be thought of as the Emperor's sons (and often are), and the SMs are in effect his grandchildren.

The difference being that the Primarchs are diluted versions of the Emperor and regular Astartes are diluted versions of the Primarchs. The Grey Knights are Astartes but do not use a Primarch for their source of gene-seed so the connection to the Emperor is far greater. None of the Primarchs are truly His sons because they only share some genetic similarities, they were essentially made from alchemy.

I think it much more plausible that the GKs geneseed is derived from this unaltered, original Primarch matrix rather than directly from from the Emperor himself. I also seem to remember it suggested that the "Emperor's Gift" wasn't in reference to the geneseed at all, but to the psychic protection against corruption that GKs seem to enjoy.

Except its been a fact in the Codexes from 5th to 8th and likely 9th that their gene-seed is derived from the Emperor. Its not a case of "We don't know it could be many reasons". It's very much confirmed they use the Emperor as their genetic source, IIRC its one of the reasons why people didn't like the Grey Knight background because they were so pure and perfect.


I assume this quote from the 5th Ed GK codex is what you are referring to:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.


I can see that this can be interpreted as the GK’s geneseed is produced directly from the emperor, but I don’t think it’s the only valid interpretation. There’s just enough wiggle room that it could be something else.

New geneseed, without flaws - derived from the original Primarch genetic matrix fits this.
Carry’s the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul - sounds like it has had something added to it, probably to enhance the psychic resistance against Chaos seeing as GKs haven’t been corrupted.

Personally I like my 40K with the mystery still intact, so I’m going to hang onto this wiggle room unless there is a more recent and more specific quote that categorically states that GK geneseed is derived solely from the emperor’s genome. Considering that Erda and her genetic involvement in the Primarchs and Space Marines wasn’t a part of the lore until quite recently, I don’t expect GW to drop her involvement any time soon.
   
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Spoiler:
Aash wrote:

I assume this quote from the 5th Ed GK codex is what you are referring to:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.


I can see that this can be interpreted as the GK’s geneseed is produced directly from the emperor, but I don’t think it’s the only valid interpretation. There’s just enough wiggle room that it could be something else.

From the Beast Arises: The Beheading;
‘They are called the Grey Knights,’ said Veritus. ‘They are a force of warriors without peer, engineered from gene-seed taken from the Emperor Himself a thousand years ago. A last, parting gift from our god before He was taken from us to sit upon His Golden Throne.’

Veritus is an Inquisitor, the first Inquisitor actually Kyril Sinderman but with a new name. Only he knew of the Grey Knights and their creation by Malcador. The Grey Knights origins aren't ambiguous, you can headcanon if you want but it doesn't change facts.

New geneseed, without flaws - derived from the original Primarch genetic matrix fits this.

The Primarchs were made by a combination of the Emperor's DNA and that of Erda. Gene-seed is derived from a single being. It wasn't a genetic matrix that made the Primarchs it was just 20 test tube babies, each designed as an individual.

Carry’s the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul - sounds like it has had something added to it, probably to enhance the psychic resistance against Chaos seeing as GKs haven’t been corrupted.

You mean like the fact that the Emperor is anathema to Warp Spawn? Something that could very easily be transfered to gene-seed derived from Him? A Knights lack of corruption also comes from wards, runes, ritual and the most intense training of any Space Marine.

Personally I like my 40K with the mystery still intact, so I’m going to hang onto this wiggle room unless there is a more recent and more specific quote that categorically states that GK geneseed is derived solely from the emperor’s genome. Considering that Erda and her genetic involvement in the Primarchs and Space Marines wasn’t a part of the lore until quite recently, I don’t expect GW to drop her involvement any time soon.

Multiple sources confirm the gene-seed is derived from the Emperor, it's not ambiguous like "Is Alpharius really dead?". Erda was only added in the Siege of Terra novel Saturnine and will likely never be brought up again since she specifically cuts herself off from the Imperium. She isn't important to the story of 30k/40k beyond her small role in that book. GW has done some exploration of the Astartes project in Birth of the Imperium but pre-Crusade books are rare at best.
Again, you can headcanon if you want but the majority of information disagrees.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 22:55:20


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Also I seem to recall a novel where a deamon called a grey knight "the anamatha's get"

which means no matter the source of that geneseed just about everyone belives it's the emperor, INCLUDING Chaos

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Aash wrote:

I assume this quote from the 5th Ed GK codex is what you are referring to:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.


I can see that this can be interpreted as the GK’s geneseed is produced directly from the emperor, but I don’t think it’s the only valid interpretation. There’s just enough wiggle room that it could be something else.

From the Beast Arises: The Beheading;
‘They are called the Grey Knights,’ said Veritus. ‘They are a force of warriors without peer, engineered from gene-seed taken from the Emperor Himself a thousand years ago. A last, parting gift from our god before He was taken from us to sit upon His Golden Throne.’

Veritus is an Inquisitor, the first Inquisitor actually Kyril Sinderman but with a new name. Only he knew of the Grey Knights and their creation by Malcador. The Grey Knights origins aren't ambiguous, you can headcanon if you want but it doesn't change facts.

New geneseed, without flaws - derived from the original Primarch genetic matrix fits this.

The Primarchs were made by a combination of the Emperor's DNA and that of Erda. Gene-seed is derived from a single being. It wasn't a genetic matrix that made the Primarchs it was just 20 test tube babies, each designed as an individual.

Carry’s the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul - sounds like it has had something added to it, probably to enhance the psychic resistance against Chaos seeing as GKs haven’t been corrupted.

You mean like the fact that the Emperor is anathema to Warp Spawn? Something that could very easily be transfered to gene-seed derived from Him? A Knights lack of corruption also comes from wards, runes, ritual and the most intense training of any Space Marine.

Personally I like my 40K with the mystery still intact, so I’m going to hang onto this wiggle room unless there is a more recent and more specific quote that categorically states that GK geneseed is derived solely from the emperor’s genome. Considering that Erda and her genetic involvement in the Primarchs and Space Marines wasn’t a part of the lore until quite recently, I don’t expect GW to drop her involvement any time soon.

Multiple sources confirm the gene-seed is derived from the Emperor, it's not ambiguous like "Is Alpharius really dead?". Erda was only added in the Siege of Terra novel Saturnine and will likely never be brought up again since she specifically cuts herself off from the Imperium. She isn't important to the story of 30k/40k beyond her small role in that book. GW has done some exploration of the Astartes project in Birth of the Imperium but pre-Crusade books are rare at best.
Again, you can headcanon if you want but the majority of information disagrees.


Ah, thanks for the quote from "The Beast Arises", I haven't read that. It does seem pretty cut and dry now.

I can't say I like it, or that it makes a lot of sense, but it is what it is!

   
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The Shire(s)

 Gert wrote:
Technically all of the Primarchs were Psykers but it manifested in the form of Super Charisma for most of them.
Sanguinius and Kurze's foresight was not a Warp ability either at least not in the same way as TSons Corvidae used the Warp to scry the future.
The Librarian Dreadnoughts AFAIK is just because BA got a special Dreadnought kit and GW added more options, in-universe there doesn't really seem to be a real explanation for why the BA have them and others don't.


Well, technically all humans excepting nulls are psychic to some extent, I'm not sure how helpful a distinction that is.

Sanguinius's powers are sufficient that if he was some nameless mook he would be carted away on the Black Ships. I think that is enough to view him as a psyker, even if he has limited control of his powers.

In addition, none of the other Primarch deaths affected their legion so profoundly, suggesting that Sanguinius had a stronger psychic link to his legion than, say, Ferrus Manus. The Iron Hands are affected culturally, but they are not still having psychic nightmares ten millennia afterwards.

If nothing else, Blood Angels often seem to display a particular aptitude for divination, so perhaps the Primarch merely affects the character of any manifested abilities.

I did forget about Corax though- he had a psychic ability with his stealth skills. I haven't seen anything suggesting Raven Guard are especially psychic, they more seem to have inherited the stealth effect.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Yeesh. Is it just me or does the Grey Knights' fluff feel like someone wanted to make their super special OC-do-not-steal that's just way cooler than the other boring chapters?

Anyways, can geneseed make a non-psyker into a psyker? I'm almost sure it can't, which means that the amount of psykers in a chapter depends more on their recruitment than their progenitor.
   
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 Tiennos wrote:
Yeesh. Is it just me or does the Grey Knights' fluff feel like someone wanted to make their super special OC-do-not-steal that's just way cooler than the other boring chapters?


It's called Matt Ward. The same guy behind the 5th Ed Space Marines Codex that stated that all other Space Marine Chapters looked up to the Ultramarines.
   
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 Tiennos wrote:
Yeesh. Is it just me or does the Grey Knights' fluff feel like someone wanted to make their super special OC-do-not-steal that's just way cooler than the other boring chapters?

The Grey Knights were always a special Chapter anyway, their background just got expanded out of almost nothing.

Anyways, can geneseed make a non-psyker into a psyker? I'm almost sure it can't, which means that the amount of psykers in a chapter depends more on their recruitment than their progenitor.

All Grey Knight Initiates are already Psykers. The gene-seed helps a bit but its the super rigorous training turns a Knight into a really good Psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arcanis161 wrote:

It's called Matt Ward. The same guy behind the 5th Ed Space Marines Codex that stated that all other Space Marine Chapters looked up to the Ultramarines.

In many ways Chapters do look up to the Ultramarines and Guilliman. The Codex caused the Chapters to exist in the first place and is the basis for their structure and tactics. With the value of hindsight and growing up, so much of Matt Wards work was nothing out of the ordinary and the reactions to it were way out of line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 10:33:11


 
   
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 Gert wrote:


You mean like the fact that the Emperor is anathema to Warp Spawn? Something that could very easily be transfered to gene-seed derived from Him? A Knights lack of corruption also comes from wards, runes, ritual and the most intense training of any Space Marine.


Plus a good ol' Sororita blood shower every now and then.
   
 
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