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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Im a big Total War player and love WHTW 1, 2 and have pre ordered 3.

Now it seems that GW have contacted many of the big mod makers for the TW games and asked/demanded that they stop their work and/or remove their patrons. Seems that they can still uplaod thier mods for now, but GW will not allow them to make any money or accept donations for modding on anything Warhammer or GW

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/oxbdff/games_workshop_is_going_after_total_war_modding/h7npgbp/?context=3

Not sure how this will affect other big mod makers like Venris who makes the Grimhammer overhauls.

Damn.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 21:01:23


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Seems he might have been going against the Total War: Warhammer Workshop guidelines by profiting off the mods via patreon / having files hidden behind a paywall?

Creating Mods for Total War: WARHAMMER
In addition to the above guidance, bear in mind that Total War: WARHAMMER contains IP owned by Games Workshop, and as a result you should consider the following when creating mods for this title.

When uploading TW:WARHAMMER mods to the Steam Workshop via the mod manager, you’ll need to confirm you’ve read the section on Mods in the game’s EULA. This is provided as a pop-up message when you are uploading.
Please ensure your mod meets the requirements laid out in the EULA, especially with regard to the treatment of Games Workshop and Total War IP, and ensuring that no third party IP is present.
Do not include or alter content in a way that is offensive or denigrating to the World of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Please only include Warhammer Fantasy Battles content in your mods – other Games Workshop IP like Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40,000 is separate and is often licensed to other companies, or used in other games.
It is not permitted to charge or ask for money for your Total War: WARHAMMER mods.


The wording of part of some of his response to that reddit post sort of come across as if he's going for the "Evil GW!" narrative, too.

I don't think there's been anything to indicate GW were the ones who contacted him, either.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 21:11:37


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




The modder patreons were never going to last, it's kind of amazing to me that people even thought they could get away with making money directly from mods
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Heaven forbid folks get into trouble by breaking previously established guidelines and rules. Also, it's a pretty bold move to think you'll be allowed to make money charging folks for mods you make without permission from the games creator.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Yeah im not surprised, the Modding community has been getting hammered for years.

Its very ironic because for the most part they flat out fix broken products or vastly improve games.

In TW example CA just rakes it in after most of the work was done as well as having good market data.

Imrik for example was probably the most popular lord pack mod for years and years until CA released the patch which people then bough anyway.

Its unfortunate. But I also think it could possibly be the beginning of the end for the industry which has been taking the piss for years. Its got to come to a head at some point.

Bring on the future of open source block chain based gaming I say.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Snord






Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





This is pretty common for videogames. Capcom has policies that prevent modders from accepting money for access to the mod as do a lot of other large companies. Been that way for since patron really took off.

You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 22:11:31


 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Laughing Man wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.


The mod is freely available on Steam, regardless of whether you are a patron or not.

They are not charging for the mod.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 22:42:14


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't think Catalyst is a good company to reference here considering they really like refusing the pay artists for the work they do on the shadowrun line. They've even faked an embezzlement scandal to avoid paying out contracts (they guy Catalyst accused is running the current battletech kser).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.


The mod is freely available on Steam, regardless of whether you are a patron or not.

They are not charging for the mod.


A lot of video game companies see pateron's for modders as being paid to do the work as opposed to the old method of doing the work and getting donations after the fact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 22:45:21


 
   
Made in us
Snord






 Monkeysloth wrote:
A lot of video game companies see pateron's for modders as being paid to do the work as opposed to the old method of doing the work and getting donations after the fact.


I'm so glad we have giant corporations with huge legal departments to decide things for us. It makes me feel so safe.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 jaredb wrote:
Heaven forbid folks get into trouble by breaking previously established guidelines and rules. Also, it's a pretty bold move to think you'll be allowed to make money charging folks for mods you make without permission from the games creator.
The game's creator is Creative Assembly, and they're fine with mods.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... Capcom has policies that prevent modders from accepting money for access to the mod ... If you want to make a mod and give it away for free.
They're not asking for money for access. The mods are free.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Already talked about it in the other thread, and to quote myself :


Sarouan wrote:
Wait and see, but after reading some comments in the Total War Warhammer modding community, it seems like that this Radious is seen with suspicion with his recent post from the own modding community...especially the part on his statement where he's oddly avoiding to name who actually contacted him. He didn't clarify this as well when he intervened on the reddit topic about this (see there if you want to have fun with 800 comments : https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/oxbdff/games_workshop_is_going_after_total_war_modding/). On the Da Modding Den discord (https://discord.com/invite/SvR7sbr), he did intervene (rather angrily) against someone named Venris who also seems to have been contacted / knows more about that but "can't say any information so far" saying what he says isn't entirely true and "wait for the official statement".

A person from CA, the editor of Total War Warhammer, simply made that statement so far :


OtherTomCA

Aujourd’hui à 16:04
Hi all, I know that there are a lot of questions relating to modding for Total War: Warhammer right now.

I wanted to assure you that the stance has not changed in any fundamental way from what was outlined back in 2016 here: https://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Content_Creators.html#Creating_Mods_for_Total_War:_WARHAMMER.

We are monitoring the conversation and will look at clarifying any questions or situations at a later date.


The stance he's talking about is this one :


Creating Mods for Total War: WARHAMMER

In addition to the above guidance, bear in mind that Total War: WARHAMMER contains IP owned by Games Workshop, and as a result you should consider the following when creating mods for this title.

When uploading TW:WARHAMMER mods to the Steam Workshop via the mod manager, you’ll need to confirm you’ve read the section on Mods in the game’s EULA. This is provided as a pop-up message when you are uploading.

Please ensure your mod meets the requirements laid out in the EULA, especially with regard to the treatment of Games Workshop and Total War IP, and ensuring that no third party IP is present.

Do not include or alter content in a way that is offensive or denigrating to the World of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Please only include Warhammer Fantasy Battles content in your mods – other Games Workshop IP like Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40,000 is separate and is often licensed to other companies, or used in other games.

It is not permitted to charge or ask for money for your Total War: WARHAMMER mods.


So...since Radious never says the name of who contacted them, maybe it's not GW at all and it's actually CA, specifically about the mods of their video game.

Some say GW didn't contact nor removed content from any modder so far, but I can't verify their sources.

Radious seems to be known to be someone always going to monetize his mods and doesn't look to have a good reputation in the TW Warhammer modding community.


Anyway, better to be careful before trying to jump to conclusions too fast...


In resume :

- Only one modder has made that statement so far, and it's Radious.
- He never said who contacted him, even though he was asked to clarify on the same post. We actually don't know if it's GW.
- Radious is known to have a bad reputation in the modding community because of moneytisation / putting content behind paywalls on his patreon and previous lies / alleged thefts from other modders. Him using the current buzz to have people come to his patreon and boost donations wouldn't be surprising. He certainly does benefit from the confusion by his statement carefully not naming the company who contacted him...
- CA was never fine with modders asking to be paid / for money for their mods using Warhammer IP, as stated in their own guidelines for creating mods.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 23:08:04


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Argive wrote:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.


Because that's just profiting off of other people's work? I don't get to take academic papers, write a sick new introduction and get payed for "my research" either.

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





ERJAK wrote:

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.


Not "these". Radious, in this particular case.


Would be nice if people actually took time to read the pertinent facts rather than making assumptions on generalities that don't apply here.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.


umm yes catalyst blinks an eye, a few months back they issued a round of C&D orders to people.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Pretty easy rule I live by:

If I'm doing a project based on another entity's IP and I'm profiting in anyway, even if its a tip system, I know I'm going to get shut down.

Erego any profits I make will be short-term until I' m C&D'd.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and could be another thread all by itself (that being - should someone else be able to work on projects around another company's IP and profit from it either directly or via tips).

That is the current landscape that we have lived in for forever. If you are profiting off of another company's IP in any way, you should know you run the risk of getting shut down.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





ERJAK wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.


Because that's just profiting off of other people's work? I don't get to take academic papers, write a sick new introduction and get payed for "my research" either.

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.

Flip the script a bit: if the only reason people are still playing your game is because of mod support, you are making money from the free labor of the community. Bethesda's entire business model is putting out a crap game and getting fans to do the unpaid labor to fix it, if other fans want to pick up the cost of that labor then its better than nothing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Monkeysloth wrote:
You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.


Whether it's CA's policy or not, I cannot see the justification behind declaring that a person who spends their time and effort to improve a commercial product shouldn't even be allowed to take donations for it. We're not talking about someone taking GW/CA's IP and selling it as their own independent product; it's not detracting from CA's profit nor competing with their products.

It's like saying if you write and distribute your own freeware, you shouldn't be allowed to take donations for it unless you get a license from Microsoft, because you're trying to make money off their IP/operating system.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.


Whether it's CA's policy or not, I cannot see the justification behind declaring that a person who spends their time and effort to improve a commercial product shouldn't even be allowed to take donations for it. We're not talking about someone taking GW/CA's IP and selling it as their own independent product; it's not detracting from CA's profit nor competing with their products.

It's like saying if you write and distribute your own freeware, you shouldn't be allowed to take donations for it unless you get a license from Microsoft, because you're trying to make money off their IP/operating system.


That's how the law works. If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot. Sure, you can challenge in court to see what a judge things of the terms of service but you're on the hook for all the legal costs yourself if you loose and it's a lot. Don't like it, don't click agree and play the game.

Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 23:38:09


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 Ghaz wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).

And both Piranha and Catalyst are happy to issue DMCAs to folks who make BattleTech models for printing.
   
Made in au
Tunneling Trygon






Splitting hairs, but Patreon is a platform for creators getting paid to create. Doesn't matter if the mods are free to access, the use of the site suggests the modder being paid to create the content. It's highly pedantic, but that's often how these things are.

Despite being functionally the same, a platform like Ko-Fi with a more explicit "Use us to donate to creatives" slant might make the difference
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Laughing Man wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).

And both Piranha and Catalyst are happy to issue DMCAs to folks who make BattleTech models for printing.

It just depends on whose design is being pirated as to who sends you the DCMA. Until Catalyst ran their Clan Invasion Kickstarter, 99% of those 3D printes would have come from Piranha Games or Harebrained Schemes designs and they would have been the ones sending out the DCMAs and not Catalyst.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Monkeysloth wrote:
That's how the law works.


I didn't think 'I agree with 100%' was you stating a legal assessment free of personal opinion, but okay.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot.


Whose TOS?

A TOS gives the owner the right to cancel service. If it's CA's TOS that comes with the game, that just means you can't play the game anymore.

The relevant TOS here would be Patreon's. Does Patreon disallow collecting donations for software writers who create content for existing applications/OSes? Doubtful.

Of course Steam's TOS might have some blanket clause that allows the developer to contest the existence of a mod. That's all fine and dandy, but all it means is the mod gets pulled from Steam. Host it on any other platform and keep taking donations if you want.

If it's an IP concern then TOS is completely irrelevant; that's just straight to the courts.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 auticus wrote:
Pretty easy rule I live by:

If I'm doing a project based on another entity's IP and I'm profiting in anyway, even if its a tip system, I know I'm going to get shut down.

Erego any profits I make will be short-term until I' m C&D'd.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and could be another thread all by itself (that being - should someone else be able to work on projects around another company's IP and profit from it either directly or via tips).

That is the current landscape that we have lived in for forever. If you are profiting off of another company's IP in any way, you should know you run the risk of getting shut down.


This. So much this.

If you're dodging this then you're a dashed liar.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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