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There is a cabal ritual that lets you cast one witchfire spell that has already been attempted that presumably overrides that limitation. Presumably the same thing is why a GK special rule lets them cast some non smite spells more than once.
Key thing to note is it only lets you cast a witchfire spell, the res is not a witchfire.
The maximum res you can do in a turn is 1 from Cult of Time and 1 from the 1 CP strat that needs an unmodified 9+ to either heal a wounded model or res if there are no wounded models in the unit. The odds of this second one going off are a flat 10/36 for your Scarab unit. I've not checked if you can use the cast another spell for 1 CP strat on Scarabs or if it is character locked but that would give you 2 10/36 chances to get the second res.
There is going to be so much unintentional cheating while everyone learns the rules, but TSons are also shaping up to be a really bad army for TFG to play against newbies. If you don't know the rules yourself it is very hard to follow the psychic phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to add, there are a bunch of rules in the codex requiring a 9+ and a bunch requiring an unmodified 9+, another avenue for unintentional or intentional cheating.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 07:41:24
The strats are called Great Sorcerer (can use on a Scarab) and Warped Regeneration. So you could get an above 50% chance to pull it off by spending 2 CP per turn. Just make sure you've healed any injured Scarabs to full first (I'll be using the 15 point upgrade).
I'm playing my first games tomorrow and my two goals are (1) melt some faces with spells and (2) do as little unintentional cheating as possible.
Two games Saturday, won by a 45 point margin both times, but it was against weaker codexes (an 8th edition one and an early 9th edition one). Sisters/GKnights/AdMech/Dark Eldar would currently worry me, first two as they have strong anti psyker and the last two as they bring so much for 2,000 points.
Overall it feels like a very high damage output army with both the psychic and shooting phases being strong and the melee phase also being ok with the right units.
Survivability is good but also depends on terrain and your opponent.
Speaking of the right units, Scarabs are fantastic, if only you could take more than 3 units!
Eldenfirefly wrote: Egleighen's Orrery is such a good relic. Suddenly, ALL your units within 6 inches of the relic bearer gets to ignore ALL modifiers including damage -1...
That irritating Redemptor Dreadnaught no longer gets to ignore -1. Mortarion or Magnus with -1 to hit, -1 dmg ? Now you get to ignore all that. A forgefiend with twin Heavy Hades Autocannon now gets to shoot 8 Str 8 shots and its dmg 2 shots don't get reduced to 1. That suddenly makes it damage output pretty amazing.
And there is a strategem to increase a shooting vehicles's AP by 1. So now the Hades Autocannon is shooting at AP3.
Hellbrute heavy plasma cannons do flat 3 damage. So, if they are in this relic's aura, each failed save is a dead terminator (even if you are a DG or Dark Angel's terminator).
This new Thousand Sons codex has too many good relics. lol
The Orrery is CORE only, I think that is just Rubrics/Scarabs/Helbrutes/Contemptors.
I'd say it is worth some experimentation, which I feel is the same for quite a few of our relics rather than them being autopicks.
Mushkilla's all warpflamer Duplicity list he posted a few days ago was interesting and very different to the Scarab heavy Time list I used to great effect in my first two games, but I notice he had 90 wounds of Rubrics and I had 100 wounds (60 Scarab/40 Rubrics). Has anyone ran a lot less wounds and regretted it?
Has anyone tried any Tzaangor heavy builds yet? Or even used any cultists?
As long as you are not standing out in the open turn one with your Rubrics they are tough enough. So Rhinos don't do very much for surviability.
They don't add much movement if you pop out turn one and they remove your ability to spell cast and shoot if you stay in them until turn two. I think they also remove your cabal point generation as well.
It could just be that non open topped transports are just generally overcosted currently.
They would be a lot more interesting if Tzaangors could ride in them.
dreadlybrew wrote: False alarm, 10 hellions had extra stratagems used on them and wernt allowed to do all those things it was accidental cheating. And the TO of the league might be awarding me a win.
All as planned it seems.
I was thinking about asking about the loadout for the Helions as that seemed a bit too good. You can of course buy 20 Helions and still have a lot of change left over compared to 10 SOTs, but that is because the points are wrong on most of that codex. I was recently laughing at the 3rd power from pain ability as it is actually probably stronger on its own than the entire Death Guard Inexorable Advance ability.
I've listened to the first half and the way he talked about the Rhinos and how he uses them is very cool. Although I was imagining trying to do the same at the extremely variable terrain setups I get at the tournaments I go to and shaking my head.
I would be interested to know what his win rate against various factions was/is. Has he been beating Dark Eldar and AdMech or getting lucky to avoid them? Which can happen. My last 10 tournament games have been 8 power armour factions, 1 necron, 1 (not dark) elf.
whembly wrote: What are your thoughts on the Terrax-Termites?
A 14W T8 3+ 5++ distraction carnifex seems pretty spicy!
What loadouts do you prefer? I think I'm digging the 2x heavy flamers as the range aligns with the 5 melta shots.
If you can fit a pair of them, seems like a great way to get Engage and maybe an auto delivery to get your rubrics for the Burn secondary.
Wait, Forge World gets 5++ ? Did they errata them to have the Arcana Astartes keyword ?
Yes, even the FW daemon engines get Arcana Astartes/Bubonic Astartes.
Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.
As just mentioned, the Dreadclaw and the Kharbydis both get the 5++.
Unlike Rhinos they are able to transport Tzaangors (and Scarab Occult).
The Warpflame Gargoyles strat works best on a melee capable vehicle with as big a base as possible. The Biomechanical Mutation strat might also see use on them.
I think it could be worth 1CP and 100 points to threaten a 12 point ROD/RND with them. If we get the rumoured CA change to having to take mono cults they will probably show up more for Time cults to make up for their slowness.
I assume the 30 man is for match ups where you put a 4++ and -1 to hit on them and put them in front of the 10 Scarabs to completely bubble wrap from them charges. The backup use in shooty matches is you just the 150 point cultists like a 115 point spawn unit to go get the point turn one while being a pain to shift.
I think 10 Scarabs have been the MVP of every win I've had. They are the 430~450 point lynchpin unit you wish Primarchs were.
10 - 5 - 5 has been good to me. I've been trying to resist getting the second squad of 10 for a long time, but my losses tend to be situations where the 10 man has to be sacrificed (or I mess up) and then there is no where to drop the good buffs. That is where second breakfast/10 man comes in.
xeen wrote: Just a quick tip I have found helpful. I ordered large (golf ball size) D6 from Amazon for like $5. I put on one 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for smite and the other 4,5,6,7,8,9 for mutate. Whenever I use smite I turn the smite dice and same with mutate. It has really helped keep track of how many smites have been cases and what is needed and also helps me remember that mutate also goes up (I forgot this a time or two). Hope this is helpful.
I have a feeling it might end up similar to my pre Nachmund Dark Eldar games. You get to turn 3/4 and the DE (now AC) just seem to have 1 unit (or 2 small units) too many and then the domino effect happens.
I am very unhappy that the 4+++ chapter seems to be the best and most popular chapter. I was really hoping it would be one of the other ones.
The AC 4+++ into fall back and charge happens in the wrong order for TSons.
In their turn they move, shoot and charge the Scarabs. Then you get your turn to smite into the 4+++. Then in their next turn they activate fall back and charge (and shoot for another CP) and either finish off the Scarabs or go for an even better target. After two turns of shoot and charge they can die with their normal 6+++ knowing they traded up substantialy. (At which point the second unit of bikes has started the next round of this).
The Orrery doesn't work on transhuman style abilities only on minuses to wound. It is a good relic but I prefer Crystal, Prism, Scrolls at the moment. Although the Scrolls are maybe the luxury relic I need to drop if I want to be more optimal.
I'm all in on Duplicity currently, although I don't take the WL trait as too often I deployed for going second and then just used it to boost the alpha strike slightly. I don't even use the spell that much, but the threat of it keeps entire enemy units out of the game which is so valuable.
I've yet played a Nachmund game with Tsons and my meta has tons of Tau and Custodes.
So, theory hammering here.
I have four Terrax Termites....now hear me out.
You don't have to put any units in the Termites, which effectively becomes a tough Carnifex distraction unit that your opponents must deal with on turn 2 in their zone. They'll be able to guarantee getting 2 heavy flamers and 5 melta shots off per Termite...all the while unloading a TSon unit if embarked for that game (game & opponent dependent).
The Termite is a M8" W4 BS3 S7 T8 W14 A3 3+ save unit that gets the Tson 'Aracana' detachment bonus benefiting from 5++ invsave.
My list goes something like this:
Cult: Duplicity
Cabal Points: 14
Starting CP: 9
E: Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Weaver of Fates
F: 5x Spawns
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
Turn 1, we have the option to:
Spawns + Crystal = In Yo Face Spawns
10x warpflamer + Sorcerous Facade = BBQ times
Alternatively, and probably most commonly, I'd only be sending the warpflamer units out in turn one, and the Spawns is escorting (provide counter assault) the DP and/or Shaman.
I really like having 6 Rubric units on the table, then add 4 tough Termite units to keep the heat off the Rubrics seems really spicy, as the Rubrics are free to maximize the mission objections while casting smite/doombolt and plinking.
Thoughts guys?
Thanks!
Missing 30 Scarabs! Just kidding...
You can't Crystal Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY only (or the character holding it).
You can't Facade Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY or MONSTER only. (So no teleporting Exalteds on Discs).
You can Misinformator Spawn (but still can't do it to vehicles). CULT only so no Tzaangors of any kind can be redeployed including Shaman.
Also, as this came up for a friend recently. For those TS players who don't currently know this, you can't use Temporal Surge's move again after redeploying from either Crystal or Facade or coming in from reserves or deep strike. Also, Surge is INFANTRY, BEASTS or CAVALRY only. Note that this is different to Facade. MONSTERS can teleport but not move twice, while CAVALRY can move twice but not teleport...
As you can see INFANTRY can do pretty much everything. One of the many reasons 20~30 Scarabs are the way...
For your list, I'm not sure the Spawn do much. The Drills are sort of a counter melee threat and for defence I'm pretty sure you want to be casting 4++ and -1 to hit on a Drill rather than Spawn.
Also, you could drop 1 Drill for 2 Rhinos. More capacity but less melta.
Can Drills carry Tzaangors? Maybe take some cheeky goats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/17 21:07:29
Sadly the goats aren't that cheeky. They just make for some good throwaways on early turns.
Like Mariongodspeed I was thinking of at least one transport starting on the board. I know it doesn't sound much, but the 3" disembark does make a difference when trying to move to or charge the other side of the board.
A general issue for the AoR is being limited to 3 Enlightened datasheets and 3 Spawn datasheets in most games.
From the looks of it you lose:
Daemon Princes
Volkite Contemptors
Temporal Surge!
Presage!
5++ on Rubrics
+1 to cast on everything
And gain:
5++ on Spawn
5+++ vs MWs on Characters, Tzaangor and Spawn
6" pre game move on Characters, Tzaangor and Spawn
The WLT previewed works on Tzaangors but not Characters and Spawn.
The strat previewed works on Tzaangors but not Characters and Spawn.
The extra cabal ritual previewed works on Characters for the casting portion but is limited to Mal/Bless and Tzaangors but not Spawn for the resurrect effect.
There is some sort of boost to cabal points for Shaman via Tzaangors, probably +1 per Tzaangor unit near the Shaman or something.
So the hope is they aren't mentioning some bonkers WLTs, strats (six left) and rituals.
The other hope is Tzaangors to 6 points, Enlightened to 15 (or 12), Spawn to 20 in the next points update.
Or a general dataslate turning CAVALRY into either INFANTRY or BIKERS depending on how big their mount is (so all disc riders would be flying INFANTRY to match Hellions/jump packs).
Sasori wrote: The only hope is at the end of the article, it hints of more in the book. If this is a supplement, that would be great. It could as well be crusade stuff or nothing at all with how past Warcom articles have gone.
I'm expecting a page in the book to bring Scarabs in line with Blightlords, removing ObSec and upping the points cost to 42.
Grotrebel's list (similar to mine) and your list are both good lists and where the faction is if it wants to be winning.
I'm trying to add some monster/vehicles to my Grotrebel style list to lessen the No Prionsers points I give up and I do think 3 War Dogs at 3 CP are probably the best option.
I'd rather take Executioners (D3 is something we lack as well as D6+2) or Stalkers w/ daemonbreath (melee threat) over Brigands (the chaincannon is very much more of the same kind of shooting we have).
The Codex Monster/Vehicle options continue to look poor when compared to War Dogs and Volkite Contemptors, but they both cost precious CP (and the VolCons are pricey pointswise too).
I am going to try some Vindicators/Las Preds on the tabletop soon I hope in a test game, but I suspect even at 120/115 they will feel expensive.
It is also a shame the Tzaangor/Mutalith parts of the codex were ignored in the points. Tzaangors at 6, Enlightened at 12 and Mutaliths at 130 would have been nice.
I would be tempted to ask the TO before taking it to a tournament, but it should clearly work.
This is the only possible restriction in the main rules text for CRs.
A unit can only benefit from a Cabbalistic Ritual if it has this ability.
This is the cast again CR.
Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a unit from your army is selected to manifest psychic powers. Until the end of the phase, that unit can attempt to manifest one Witchfire psychic power that another PSYKER in your army has already attempted to manifest during the phase, even though the same psychic power cannot normally be attempted more than once per Psychic phase, and even if that unit does not know that psychic power.
So 2 x Bolt of Change or 2 x Infernal Gateway are both an option.
Always pleasing to hear about the space pups being slaughtered.
But, for future games, you can't cast Facade on Ahriman or Magnus as they don't have the cult keyword. Also you can't cast it on CAVALRY units (if he wasn't on foot).
Today's Forge World FAQ updates the various CSM units that can go into Thousand Sons. In theory they couldn't be taken since the CSMFWFAQ but I guess most people ignored it.
They also added machine spirit to a bunch of stuff and some tweaks to a few rules for the FW Daemons.
Wait and see for 10th edition, but be aware of the structural issues of the army and how GW rules writing compounds this for anit-tank.
TSons exclusive units - Wizards, Rubrics, Scarabs, Goats, Goats on Surfboards, Vortex Beasts.
None of these have historically had much good anti-tank.
Units shared with loyalist and heretic Space Marines - Dreadnoughts, Predator chasis, Land Raider chasis, FW-tank chasis, daemon engines.
In 9th there wasn't really a good anti-tank option in this list, even for CSM/DG/loyalists. The loyalists used their unique dreads and vehicles, while CSM/DG had the same anti-tank issue (somewhat fixed with their own unique units but not quite).
So, for 10th we need the shared units to be decent.
But we also need the unique "free rules" (army rule / detachment rule) to be good for TSons or for GW to use a different points setting method. What is this issue?
Well, lets look at a Defiler in 9th. 175 points in TSons, 175 points in DG, 175 points in CSM.
In Tsons it gets 0 special rules, no army wide rule, no chapter tactic.
In DG it gets a special rule, -1T when it gets close.
In CSM it gets all the rules. So a Black Legion Defiler is getting exploding 6s with Heavy turn 1, exploding 6s with melee turn 3,4 & 5, extra hits with its flamers all turns, and is also getting +1 to hit in most circumstances.
These three defilers shouldn't cost the same.
Similar example where TSons were favoured somewhat but the problem was the unit was garbage in 9th. A Predator in 9th. 115 points in DG. 115 points in TSons. 115 points in Iron Hands.
In DG it gets two bad special rules, when you drive your anti-tank unit close to the enemy, give them -1T and ignore the heavy penalty for shooting in combat.
In TS it gets a good special rule, a 5++, wee!
In Iron Hands it gets all the rules. Permanent dev doc gives rr 1s to hit on its heavy weapons, +1AP on its heavy weapons, then the chapter tactic gives 6+++ and a better degrading profile.
These three Predators shouldn't cost the same.
So, one of the early things in 10th I will do is look at a few shared units between the space marine factions and check their points to see if GW are still doing this.
If they are, then I will compare the TSons free rules to the other factions to work out which shared TSons units will be undercosted and which will be overcosted.
Then I will look at the TSons unique units and the TSons undercosted shared units as the base line for army building (and check for anti-tank as well as other basic building blocks of a functional army). Maybe an overcosted shared unit will be worth adding but history suggests not.
Xyxel wrote: Units in transports will generate Cabal Points?
They will need a specific rule we haven't yet seen.
As will deepstrike/reserves units.
Also, if they don't have a specific rule, the timing now will be:
Command Phase generate Cabal Points.
Movement Phase climb out of transport or arrive on battlefield.
For attaching, my theory is:
Rubrics will take:
Ahriman on Foot
Exalted on Foot
Sorcer in Power Armour
Infernal Master
Scarabs will take:
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour
Enlightened will take:
Shaman
Lone operative but with a condition (probably have to be within 3" of INFANTRY):
Ahriman on Disc
Exalted on Disc
Daemon Prince (edited this in as I forgot them)
Based on this, you would think the "new unit" TS get for the edition might be a second Terminator Armour character.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/29 21:14:34
