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Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






How do!

Fog up, apologies for the pathetic headline, I just wanted your attention. And to set out the discussion topic wouldn’t fit the topic limit.

So I’ve been selectively watching Daredevil’s most fighty moments. You know the ones. The ones in corridors. Those ones. Yeah, now you’ve keyed in.

Daredevil does well in those not due to his super powers, but sheer skill and indeed talent.

If you’ve not seen the show? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV1Vzn6xwqQ

Right, now imagine DD as even an unarmoured Astartes in that scrap. Every hit a kill. The unarmed opponents doing absolutely no lasting harm.

At the Astartes level, you probably don’t need to know or even be proficient in any given martial art. Because short of anti-tank weapons, you’re just gonna keep on going and going and going and going. You don’t tire. You don’t feel stress or fear as us weedy mortals do.

If you get a clean punch as someone’s head? That’s…..that’s curtains for your foe. Kick to the chest? You’ll need to shake their ragged corpse off your feets.

With so much raw power at your disposal? Why not go the Brock Lesnar (a magnificent athlete) route in WWE (where for my money he’s a poor entertainer) and just Splunge your way to victory by only ever doing three moves?

I mean, if even a casual cheeky love tap is going to be terminal, why bother beyond the good old (and psychologically effective) Splunge?

The answer is simple.

Astartes are well established as not just being inhumanly strong, but also inhumanly fast.

Imagine a Heavy Weight boxer with the speed of, well….this movie scene.




Then add in that their power armour adds to their strength, but barely reduces their speed. Understand that a fully armoured Astartes can do that, and more.]

The poor sod that gets the old Fist Solo to the chest and face? Pulped. Literally nothing in the head and chest region left recognisably human.

Astartes are effing terrifying. Not because of their strength (which is pants filling on its own), but because they’re so, sodding, fast.

Mob them? Ever seen 10 men’s heads get punched clean of their shoulders? No, of course you haven’t. That’d be silly. Very silly indeed. Because not matter how big, buff and trained you are? We remain weedy humans. Yet Astartes can do it. Because they’re carefully designed to do it.

I don’t care how naught you are. How revolutionary your political intent. If any of us saw an Astartes doing what they do? We’d all fall in line.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Now remember something else their opponents. Against an Eldar there faster against an Ork they are almost as strong and tough. Some Tyranids manage to combine both and Necrons are slowere but even more resilient. 40k is terrifying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 17:04:14


"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
 
   
Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





I see two problems with this line of reasoning. The first being the opposition. The second being the astartes training. First problem. The opposition the astartes face is usually very competent. Eldar, necrons, tyranids and orks all have inhuman physics that let them to a greater or lesser extent fight on equal grounds with astartes. Yes the inhuman speed of an astartes would destroy a human. But imagine the fear of seing that speed and strength matched or even overcome. You'd probably collapse in fear.

Second is that astartes are trained in manners far surpassing that of any currently alive depicted hero. They only recquire very little to no sleep and spend almost all their time awake studying war and combat. You're not looking at just someone swinging away, using their strength and speed to their advantage. You are also looking at someone who knows every aspect of close quarter combat and can probably predict an outcome long before the first fist is swung.

As a side note I wanted to include this clip since you mentioned hallway fights. Probably the best hallway fight scene ever put to film, from the movie old boy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 17:11:03


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Euh Astartes have been shown to be killed by simple lasguns on several occasions. They are not immune to small arm fire, just resistant to them. It be like wearing a good quality armored vest and screaming "I AM BULLET PROOF, NOTHING CAN HARM ME!". Armored vest don't work like that. Astartes are very fast, but they are not inhumanly fast either. In many novels and source material, highly trained humans do dodge or even parry blows from Space Marines. Hell, some humans even engage them in close combat and kill them like that. They aren't superheroes, at least not until they reach an august rank and are basically capable of curb stomping other Space Marines. They are "just" super soldiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 17:48:58


 
   
Made in no
Been Around the Block




1) Ninjas worked against human enemies, in prepared operations. They (as far as we know historically, different than Hollywood) infiltrated enemy camps and gathered information/assassinated leaders. But in WH40K the enemy is often non-human and there is no time for slow infiltrations - the Ork invasion must be stopped NOW! Or the Eldar psykers/Necrons sensors will nocite any human, ninja or not, within 500 meters. So the whole idea of "astarte ninjas in WH40K" is suboptimal.

2) The Imperium have already filled the role of ninjas, but with cheaper or more specialised assets. The Callidus assassin is the super-ninja and can do far more sneaky things than an Astartes. In general the Inquisition does a lot of ninja stuff and storm troopers are trained for infiltration/assassination, although in a more kinetic way. By adding a psyker to a squad it may be as sneaky as any ninja, Astartes or not. The Mechanicum have in lore had tech-assassins that could infiltrate other Magos Forges, and they could probably be used against xenos or heretics.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




If a fully equipped Astartes tried to do what DD does in that corridor the level of destruction would be so large that probably the whole building will collapse on top of him... if the Astartes is not killed because of plot armor, it will be rendered useless until rescued.

You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?


Well if you are very large, you are by definition easier to spot than a very small person. If you are very large, you are very heavy which means you are also more noisy than a light footed person. That doesn't strictly prevent you from being stealthy (though up to certain point it becomes impossible), but you will never be as good as a small light person if you are large and heavy at stealth if you both train similarly to that task. There are bodies that are more appropriate for certain task. If you want to sneak around unnoticed in my garden, a 7 years old clever little girl will have a tremendous advantage over an enormous mountain like wrestler, but if it comes to beating the gak out of me, the later will have a tremendous advantage. So no, you can't always have the butter and the money for the butter.

Also there is the point of being a stealthy assassin-like type of fighter and some sort of massive hulk that smashes people like glass. If each time you punch someone you splatter them like insect and burst them through walls, you are not exactly stealthy there. You can't pulverize people (and much of the environment in the process) and be considered stealthy. You can't fight and have the size of the Hulk, but do the things Batman does. They are completely different sets of skills that requires completely different kinds of people. That's why, though gymnast are freakishly strong in some ways, they are very different in body type and style than boxers who are themselves very different than weightlifters who are themselves very different then weigh throwers, etc.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?


Well if you are very large, you are by definition easier to spot than a very small person. If you are very large, you are very heavy which means you are also more noisy than a light footed person. That doesn't strictly prevent you from being stealthy (though up to certain point it becomes impossible), but you will never be as good as a small light person if you are large and heavy at stealth if you both train similarly to that task. There are bodies that are more appropriate for certain task. If you want to sneak around unnoticed in my garden, a 7 years old clever little girl will have a tremendous advantage over an enormous mountain like wrestler, but if it comes to beating the gak out of me, the later will have a tremendous advantage. So no, you can't always have the butter and the money for the butter.

Also there is the point of being a stealthy assassin-like type of fighter and some sort of massive hulk that smashes people like glass. If each time you punch someone you splatter them like insect and burst them through walls, you are not exactly stealthy there. You can't pulverize people (and much of the environment in the process) and be considered stealthy. You can't fight and have the size of the Hulk, but do the things Batman does. They are completely different sets of skills that requires completely different kinds of people. That's why, though gymnast are freakishly strong in some ways, they are very different in body type and style than boxers who are themselves very different than weightlifters who are themselves very different then weigh throwers, etc.


killing everyone in the area before they can report your presence IS a form of stealth

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
killing everyone in the area before they can report your presence IS a form of stealth


The problem is that if you do the killing "Hulk style" people a block away will be able to hear and report you and you won't even know it. The same goes if you get building and start punching people through walls. Your element of surprise disappears almost in an instant and everybody can call for help or make enough of noise to attract attention. No "killing everyone" isn't stealth. The hard part of stealth is the "before they can report your presence" and shock and awe power armored giant a terrible at that.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






This is of course where Primaris (searches correct term) Reivers come in, given their armour has baffles and silencing systems to make them quite as a mouse.

Is it full plate power armour? No.

Does it do pretty much the same job, except you can totally sneak around in it? Yup.

Just imagine that. An Astartes in Reiver armour popping out of nowhere, and not just putting your head through the wall, but happily following you through it for the lols. All the time striking with the speed and precision of Donny Yen in the Ip Man scene.

I like to consider myself fairly brave for someone who’s never really been in an average “new pants please” type situation. But I can tell you, seeing that level of speed, violence and stealth? Regardless of which side I’m on? I’d be passing my kidneys in a fraction of a second.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is of course where Primaris (searches correct term) Reivers come in, given their armour has baffles and silencing systems to make them quite as a mouse.

Is it full plate power armour? No.

Does it do pretty much the same job, except you can totally sneak around in it? Yup.

Just imagine that. An Astartes in Reiver armour popping out of nowhere, and not just putting your head through the wall, but happily following you through it for the lols. All the time striking with the speed and precision of Donny Yen in the Ip Man scene.

I like to consider myself fairly brave for someone who’s never really been in an average “new pants please” type situation. But I can tell you, seeing that level of speed, violence and stealth? Regardless of which side I’m on? I’d be passing my kidneys in a fraction of a second.


Compare a 8 foot giant in a perfectly silent plate armor (plate armor is not noisy btw unless you make contact with other hard surfaces) to a 3 foot tall fleet footed ratling in adaptive camo cloak. One is armed with a knife and a submachine shaped mini-rocket launcher, the other with a rifle that shoot poisoned needles at near supersonic speed thanks to an electric impulse (thus no recoil or sound). One will struggle to be as stealthy as a guardsman in flak armor, the other will kill you without you even noticing he was there is in the first place. One needs to be within a few hundred meters of you to kill you, the other could be a kilometer away. No, even in the best conditions, a Space Marines struggles to do what a less skilled human can do in the department of stealth and sneaking around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 20:07:52


 
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






Others being naturally stealthier doesn’t preclude stealthy Astartes being efficient.

I’d even wager losing someone to an unseen Sniper is a good deal less unsettling than an 8’ foot tall post human successfully infiltrating your base, and then unleashing horrific levels of violence. Because once they’re in, they don’t really care if you know they’re present.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Why dont we have an eye rolling ork moticon

So astartes dont need to be sealthy at all because they are unstoppable juggernauts whos mere pressence just make most foes to panic and despair... But somehow they do stealth just for hubris and the cool factor?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Space Marines always have to be the best at everything, that is the point of the 40K setting. Stands to reason they'd be amazing ninjas.

   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

In the novels there are Deathwatch Marines who use carapace or lighter armour so they can sneak around.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Da Boss wrote:
Space Marines always have to be the best at everything, that is the point of the 40K setting. Stands to reason they'd be amazing ninjas.



TBH I expect Marine stealth is differant from say.. Ninjitsu.

Things to consider about space Marines, despite their size they have some pretty key advantages, superior sight, hearing and even small to humans, augmented by the autosenses in their armor Marines likely can adjust course, take cover etc,

Marines likely can avoid contact with unaugmented troops when they need to.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





BrianDavion wrote:
marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them
Honestly, that applies to just about every form of stealth!

But yes - Space Marines absolutely can be both strong, fast, and stealthy where necessary. Why? Because the lore claims so, and make no claims counter to that.


They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them
Honestly, that applies to just about every form of stealth!


it does but we know Marines have super sharp senses soo...

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






Plus an Astartes doesn’t need to get out of there once rumbled. Instead, they’ll just squish everyone in the local vicinity with their trademark ultra violence.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thematically if you want ninjas, I think you should be looking at Imperial Assassins, or Eldar Exarchs and Phoenix Lords. After all they are basically mystical martial arts masters.




From 1:52 onwards if you want space ninja action and especially 3:45-4:15.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/09 11:44:43


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Da Boss wrote:
Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.


marines will employ camo where nesscary. there's some examples of it

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Honestly, I would be more afraid if a bright blue and gold giant managed to sneak into my command bunker than one wearing camo pattern.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.


marines will employ camo where nesscary. there's some examples of it


The best camo for a Marine is to cover in the blood and guts of their enemies... that way their foes wont be able to locate them in the carnage that will ensure the moment that the Astartes engage in close quarters... after all a human, ork or tyranid will just turn into a red, green, ¿purple? mist the moment the Astartes fist come nearby

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/09 13:02:16


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Honestly, I would be more afraid if a bright blue and gold giant managed to sneak into my command bunker than one wearing camo pattern.


I'd be really afraid. It would mean my troops are spectacularly incompetent to a degree that's almost unimaginable.

As for the advantages provided by their senses, this is indeed playing in their favor, but makes them good at spotting infiltrator not so much at infiltrating themselves. Space Marines work well as guards and sentry because they are really tough to kill, especially to kill swiftly and silently, they have super sharp senses that can't be fooled easily, never sleep, wear armors that makes them in constant communication with their leaders, wear brightly colored armors that makes them easy to spot for other sentries and are imposing and menacing. Good luck taking them out "ninja style". Space Marines are perfect for counter stealth operation, but at their weakest in stealth operation.

Space Marines being great at stealth and sabotage is extremely stupid. Some might be capable of doing in a pinch, but they are not naturally apt to it. It's also important to note the difference between stealth and infiltration mission and covert or clandestine operations. Nothing prevents Space Marines from being exceptional at the later two. The difference between a covert and regular operation is the level of military secrecy surrounding it.
   
Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Well, Raven Guard marines do the 'stealth giant' thing pretty well

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
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 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

In this thread: Terribly unrealistic goon fight scenes from cheesy films that are beyond laughable and the posters inspired by said nonsense who overinflate what space marines can do in a way that does not match lore, fluff nor anything depicted in the gane since its inception.

On Dakkadakka you are quite clearly free to be racist and abusive if it is the right kind of abusive and racist.

If someone calls it out, just shout 'whataboutism' and 'off topic' 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




A good example of marine stealth was operation sedna during the badab war. Due to plot reasons, they couldn't assault directly. So instead, A combined force (iirc couple hundred...)of Raptors and Salamanders made planet fall a few hundred kilometres from their target. Over the course of 3 weeks (I think) they moved on foot towards the location and once in position launched a devastating attack.




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