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Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Hi,

I'm not completely sure if this question is better of here or in the general topic, but I'll give it a shot.
I was reading and playing around a bit with the only war RPG rules, not really to play but more to get a better grasp on the fluff for my homebrew regiment and came about the equipment, most notably the different types of las- and projectile weapons in service with the line infantry of the guard.

As I lack practical experience with the different "classes" of weapons (rifle, carbine, shotgun, sniper, pistol) as well as jungle environments I wanted to ask those that do, which seems the most practical item out of these:
lasgun
lascarbine (as far as I understand lighter, with shorter range)
shotlas (a bit heaver, shorter range, more and spreaded damage)
longlas (good for hunting, but big...)
laspistol
autogun
shotgun

given the situation that your regiment is
a) intended for jungle fighting
b) has to plan for bad (re)supply
c) is intended for long range missions on foot, so have to march a lot and carry their stuff in the meantime
d) wants to be able to use it to hunt in the jungle to fill up on provisions(so there should be left enough of a potential prey to eat it)

From my limited understanding I would assume a lascarbine would be the best compromise, but I read that the US marines in Vietnam were really fond of shotguns. Meanwhile in the Gaunts Ghost books the snipers sometimes went hunting with their longlas in low powered setting, with Larkin underlining that one should aim for the head or else a lasweapon will not leave much to be edible, which makes the longlas or projectile weapons also seem a sensible choice. Any input you could give me?

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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Almost certain a Lascarbine

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Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







I would agree. While I ha lve never experienced it, I would imagine that there are no long sight lines, and there wil be hard cover in the form of trees everywhere so long range stopping power would be of limited utility. The close confines lead to a bullpup or carbine configuration so the weapon doesn’t upkeep getting caught in stuff.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Current military doctrine would be a carbine - something smaller and lighter than a rifle but firing the same ammunition. In 40k terms that probably translates to a lascarbine. Las weapons have rechargeable power packs so ammo isn't a major issue. They're also supposed to be really reliable.
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





I don't speak from experience but from what I understand, jungle combat means a lot of short-range fighting in relatively cramped spaces. So, focus mostly on small, short range weapons: shotguns, lascarbines, flamers, meltas... Also, the machete is almost essential for trekking in a jungle, so a laspistol/machete combo would make sense.

Comparatively, a sniper rifle wouldn't be great since you'd rarely have the range to use it. Lugging around something as big as a missile launcher or lascannon in a jungle would be a pain in the butt and probably not that useful either. I suppose those are the kind of weapons you'd take only if you know you're actually going to need them.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Northumberland

The one thing you want really is versatility.

Yes it can be narrower sight lines and close conditions but that isn't always the case.

A carbine is a safe bet for regular infantry.

Flamers and whatever the equivalent of a SAW (stubber or heavy stubber I guess) to round out the unit.

Also don't forget all that poor sightline stuff is true when you're moving but when you're in the guard you also love those entrenched positions.

When you are in an environment that is not in your favour you do your damndest to make it better. The more guns the better to cover all those potential threat locations.

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Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Thanks already for the input. Funny enough I modelled all my dudes with flamers and grenade launcher as special weapons, which seems to be not to far of the mark.
As to that: what about Grenades? Are they useful in such a dense vegatation or is this more something for urban/trench fighting?

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Jungle fighting? Mortars...

For a general point about Jungle weaponry and doctrine (small squads, lots of firepower) wikipedia has it covered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_tactics#Jungle_warfare

What is doesn't say and something that is hard for military RPGs to show is... riflemen don't really shoot people. They do a lot in films where they are heroes, real life, not so much. For a start 'the empty battlefield' is a thousand times worse in a jungle. They carry ammo for the heavy weapons and 'fix' the enemy to allow those heavy weapons to engage. Yes they have to assault and hold positions, provide visible presence, do a bunch of other jobs, etc, but the majority of their combat utility is in that role.

Now some armies keep giving soldiers heavier weaponry to make them more relevant, and you could argue that is what a las weapon is, but if you wanted realistic your las armed soldiers would pin the enemy and the heavy weapons would disrupt/kill/force the enemy to retreat.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 12:24:52


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)


Mortars can be tricky in the jungle due to the canopy.
It's light ~50mm mortars which get used, which are honestly more like grenade launchers.

Something else to consider is how do lasweapons work? Can a lasbolt penetrate the undergrowth?
If so, a lascarbine is definitely the best infantry weapon.
If not, you're looking at shotguns or autoguns by necessity.

Descriptions of las weaponary varies wildly between books and sometimes even within the same book. I remember in Gaunts Ghosts one guy got his arm blown off by a lasbolt, the next guy got hit square in the throat and survived (albeit with medical attention). So it's pretty much impossible to draw any real conclusions on how a lasgun behaves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 11:59:19


 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 Pyroalchi wrote:
Thanks already for the input. Funny enough I modelled all my dudes with flamers and grenade launcher as special weapons, which seems to be not to far of the mark.
As to that: what about Grenades? Are they useful in such a dense vegatation or is this more something for urban/trench fighting?
I'd say grenades are definitely useful. I don't think the vegetation would be a huge problem, especially since you don't need pinpoint accuracy. At the very least, it's useful to disorient/force the enemy to move. Also, even if this isn't an urban setting, if the enemy has been there for a bit of time they should have bunkers and hidey-holes all around; grenades would come in handy to clear those.

And if we assume that heavy mortars and artillery aren't practical, a bunch of grenade launchers are probably the next best thing.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





In what environment wouldn’t it be the las rifle
   
Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





The Tanith First and Only was originally a Jungle Based Scouting regiment and even after they were thrown into other theatre's of war, they were often under supplied and/or cut off. They use the Lascarbine for the standard troops while having sniper squads using the Long-Las.


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Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Thanks again, that was helpful, and the wiki link was quite informative.
I thumped further through the only war pdf and found something very fitting in the "anti plant" grenade/missile that seems to do exactly that: rapidly removing flora. Also there the "treat fether" as downgraded, shorter ranged missile launcher that is much lighter than the real thing is mentioned. And I assume fighting in jungles you would tend to not expect many tanks to show up.

So I guess what I take from it might be:
A compact lascarbine with optional low power setting for hunting
A machete/big knife
Anti plant and frag grenades
1 grenade launcher per squad (anti plant, frag and few krak grenades)
1 treat fether per platoon (Krak missiles)

Sound sensible?


Edit: and to mention it: they so far almost exclusively fought Renegades and heretics, so baseline humans. I guess when they meer Tyranids and Orks they will realize some more stopping power might be needed. So the above is meant as kind of a starting gear up on the tithe.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 14:51:37


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





For infantry on patrol: lascarbines/lasguns, grenade launchers, and either heavy bolters or heavy stubbers. Possibly the stubbers over the bolter for an increased volume of lower-caliber ammunition, as the gunner is doing suppression through brush and trees. Shotguns can be handy for the occasional specialist, but are probably too short-range even for jungle fighting to be a primary weapon.

Unless you have a reasonable expectation of encountering armor, grunts given rocket launchers will inevitably use them on foxholes, bunkers, or other dug-in targets. If you're widely issuing grenade launchers, they're of very limited usefulness and probably best kept in reserve.

At firebases and outposts you'd want your heavy artillery for long range fire support, and heavy stubbers/bolters, autocannons, and mortars emplaced for defense. A sniper with long-las or other specialists are likely to be set up here as well. Sentinels--especially with saw blades to cut back encroaching brush--are best used patrolling the perimeter of these bases. On patrol a walker will be more difficult to move quietly and will have to spend more effort clearing brush to make itself a trail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 15:10:27


 
   
Made in us
Ship's Officer





Dallas, TX

it all depend on the lore history of your IG regiments; if all you have is dress uniform Bluebloods with laslocks, then you send them into the jungle like the British redcoats in the Carribeans.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






As it's an RPG, and you can go a bit more in with the weapons beyond a simple 'lasgun', you may want to look into the different patterns of lasguns/carbines also.

For example, the Lucius no.98 pattern lasgun is harder hitting, utilising more energy per shot with the downside being of having less shots per mag - This is Kriegs weapon of choice.

There's loads! - https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/25 18:16:47


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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would say lasguns with a hearty support of heavy bolters and grenade launchers and maybe a few flamers here and there. Support platoons with mortars and artillery units would be important too. Jungle fighters often require a dense level of firepower and lots of autonomy of leadership.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Definitelys something with enough punch to make it through underbrush and dense cover. If we are talking base level humans here, Autoguns or Heavy Stubbers. Anything not using solid rounds is likely to not punch through. If they could all use Bolters that would be best, but good luck finding a IG unit that all use Bolters. In the Gaunt Series, there was a mission where they have to use jetpacks, or something, assaulting a airborne spire. The men are issued some type of Auto-stubber that basically pulps anything it hits, then explodes. Basically a man portable Heavy Bolter/rifle thing. That. That is what would be "best".
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






 Big Mac wrote:
it all depend on the lore history of your IG regiments; if all you have is dress uniform Bluebloods with laslocks, then you send them into the jungle like the British redcoats in the Carribeans.


It's more the other way around. I want (for my fluff) a sensible equipment for a regiment that hailes from a jungle region and have experience fighting baseline humans and expects (in an adorable example of misplaced optimism) that they will be deployed accordingly. So it is more likely that they find themself in an open plane pitted against CSM being hopelessly misequipped.

@ endlesswaltz123: I had a rough look at the different lasgun patterns and I think what most fits my view of how "my dudes" would be outfitted from their homeworld would be a more rugged type of lascarbine. I found that those are also used by Taniths and Catachans, who are pretty close. On the wiki there were even a handful of patterns, namely the ones from both regiments, a HH era one and and more sophistated one. As none of those really fits my bill and its only my fluff anyway I will just invent my own pattern and describe it as a bit less powerful (maybe less range), but very low maintenance and energy conservant (as they have problems getting replacements and powerpacks)

@ Fezzik: I don't really see them getting bolters and quite honestly I would avoid having to rely on different kinds of ammunition. Kirotheavenger already implied that it might be unclear if lasweapons can penetrate undergrowth and you mention again that one would need solid rounds. My question would be: why? Is there a reason why a lasbolt would not penetrate undergrowth? (The question is not meant rhetorically, I just can't come up with a convincing reason)


@ rapid fire/suppression weapon: as it was mentioned multiple times that this would be extremely useful: Maybe (again just for fluff, not on the tabletop) something like a light machine gun version of a lasgun, using the same or at least similar components and powerpacks would make sense as a squad support weapon? I imagine something like a hot shot volleygun, just without the hot shot. So a slightly heavier version of a lasgun (same bolts, just with the ability for continuous fire), wired to a backpack power source. And as a special knack: that powersource basically just has 6-8 slots for standard powerpacks. So the whole squad could use the same ammunition.
=> right now that seems like something you could come up with, if as a regiment you expect problems with your supply, so you try to keep it as simple as possible. Obviously it would be worse than a heavy stubber/bolter, but... it would make a kind of sense I think? But I'm very open to input and criticism if you see a blatant logic error in this idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/25 19:54:19


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





A laser weapon meant to burn through body armor and explode flesh is not going to be much inconvenienced by brush. It's not ACTUALLY a flashlight. You would end up with foliage smoldering and crackling all around you instead of being shredded by solid bullets, which would be a different kind of horrifying.

On a later note: I could totally see a sort of downscaled multilaser being fielded in an attempted to maximize ammunition interchangeability. And for tabletop purposes, giving it equivalent stats to a heavy stubber should make for a solution that can't be accused of unbalancing the game.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Las weaponry is notoriously weak to things like chaff and detraction over distance. It's why ship to ship weapons don't use them much, and most drop flyers deploy smoke and chaff, because it literally blocks and nullifies Las Cannons. If you are telling me that a Las carbine has better punch over distance than a las cannon, I don't know how to respond to that. Solid shot weapons are better.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Las weaponry is notoriously weak to things like chaff and detraction over distance. It's why ship to ship weapons don't use them much, and most drop flyers deploy smoke and chaff, because it literally blocks and nullifies Las Cannons. If you are telling me that a Las carbine has better punch over distance than a las cannon, I don't know how to respond to that. Solid shot weapons are better.


Laser weapons that can pack a punch like projectiles but can be diffused by smoke don’t make sense, it has to be one or the other. the diffusion of lasers by smoke makes sense in reality but real world lasers don’t blast holes in Wales like in sci fi

Anyway I thought of a reason not to take lasers into the jungle, they will star random fires. If the jungle is in a dry season a gunfight turns into a wild fire
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Las weapons would in theory lack penetration. I think that was even a slight plot point in a hammers slammers story.

Back to your support weapons… it’s the Imperial Guard. It sucks. I would think the type of heavy machine gun that sucks to pull through the bush would be great. In 40k terms perhaps a multilaser like in Astartes.

A weapon like the one shown in the video here used by Vietnamese troops.
https://youtu.be/WNTb9_zTvcQ
   
Made in us
Giggling Nurgling





I forget the book, but a special boat unit-esque regiment had to assault a jungle fortress and had a solid number of autoguns and slug thrower weaponry. I wanna say they quoted that it dealt with brush and foliage better than lasguns, but its kind of a hazy memory and I think I lost the book when I moved cross country.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

Anti-plant grenades to allow the Leman Russ tanks to do the Emperor's work.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Lasguns aren't laser pointers. If they have enough energy to burn a person to the point that they can cause lethal wounds, a bunch of leaves will be incinerated instantly. If it couldn't punch through leaves, a T-shirt would be viable armor against lasgun shots.
   
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There is only one correct answer to this question.
Which in itself is a question..

"You call that a knife?"

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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




There is a reason most catachans don't use lasguns, but Shotguns, bolt pistols, and HBs, or combat knives.

Arguably the greatest living jungle fighter of all time, (Redacted) only uses a combat knife and a Needle Pistol. Otherwise, Harker uses Payback, and the other guy uses a special shotgun.

Are we going by fluff or real world here. Because in both, lasguns are the wrong weapon for Catachan-esque environments.
   
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Dakka Veteran




Pretty sure Catachans use the galaxy pattern of lasgun, which is shorter than the ones Cadians use (name escapes me what that variant is called starts with a K from memory).
   
 
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