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Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

If you run the numbers, you realize that a "fleet-based chapter" is not so much a Space Marine chapter that lives on ships, as a fleet that carries a Space Marine chapter to complement its already massive armament and personnel.

According to some sources, even the smallest Warp-capable Imperial ships (corvettes and frigates) have a crew in the tens of thousands. For example, the Claymore-class corvette, considered a freaking escort ship, has a crew of 21,000. This means that an entire Codex-compliant chapter would make up less than 5 percent of that lone ship's crew... if that was their only ship. But we're talking about fleets of ships (what's the minimum number of ships to qualify as a "fleet"? Five?), some of which will be quite a bit larger. Some chapters have a 20+ km long Gloriana-class battleship as a flagship (vs. 1.4 km for the aforementioned Claymore).

Even non-Codex-compliant chapters such as the Black Templars will be a drop in the bucket compared to the size of their fleet's personnel. The ships and their non-Marine crews probably have enough guns, fighter craft and boots on the ground to be a massive force in their own right, capable of doing about 99% of the work in a military campaign while the Marines do the remaining 1%.

.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

-Guardsman- wrote:
If you run the numbers, you realize that a "fleet-based chapter" is not so much a Space Marine chapter that lives on ships, as a fleet that carries a Space Marine chapter to complement its already massive armament and personnel.

According to some sources, even the smallest Warp-capable Imperial ships (corvettes and frigates) have a crew in the tens of thousands. For example, the Claymore-class corvette, considered a freaking escort ship, has a crew of 21,000. This means that an entire Codex-compliant chapter would make up less than 5 percent of that lone ship's crew... if that was their only ship. But we're talking about fleets of ships (what's the minimum number of ships to qualify as a "fleet"? Five?), some of which will be quite a bit larger. Some chapters have a 20+ km long Gloriana-class battleship as a flagship (vs. 1.4 km for the aforementioned Claymore).

Even non-Codex-compliant chapters such as the Black Templars will be a drop in the bucket compared to the size of their fleet's personnel. The ships and their non-Marine crews probably have enough guns, fighter craft and boots on the ground to be a massive force in their own right, capable of doing about 99% of the work in a military campaign while the Marines do the remaining 1%.

.

It is true for planet-based Marines as well. Most Chapters will maintain a force capable of deploying their 10 companies- so most likely at least 4-5 strike cruisers and 2-3 battle barges per Chapter plus escorts, Chapters with heavy casualties notwithstanding. Prestigious Chapters often have more (the Ultramarines appear to have a strike cruiser per company plus many battle barges including a Gloriana). The planet-based Chapter keep likely also contains similar numbers of serfs and servitors to the space-fortress monasteries of their fleet brethren.

It is worth noting that Astartes vessels are hinted as being especially automated, with larger numbers of advanced systems and servitors than equivalent Imperial Navy vessels. Servitors are not counted in the crew totals, so Space Marine vessels will have somewhat lower crew complements (still vastly outnumbering the Marines however).

Space Marines are just the very sharp tip of the spear that is their extensive fleet assets. They are basically force-multipliers for a fleet specialised in orbital combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 05:43:15


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




what's the minimum number of ships to qualify as a "fleet"? Five?


What actual goes into a navy battle group is 2-5 capital ships and some escorts.

The battle fleet for the entire Corona sector is 7 battleships and 26 cruisers, plus more than the same in escorts. This is bigger than the Scarus sector battlefleet of 5 and 19, which is itself larger than average.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





I mean, this is 40K we're talking about. There's some nasty stuff out there in the universe that could make a real mess out of even trained baseline humans. To say nothing of the fact that a lot of the people on those ships would be non-combat personnel just keeping things functioning for the marines.

The whole point of space marines are that they are these semi superhumans that can survive against and even kill some of the worst that's out there. I'd imagine a single squad or small warband of chaos marines could hack and chop their way from one side of a ship to the other until they met something that was their equivalent.

I am assuming of course this is a "why do marines exist when we have big ships and big guns" sort of thread.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

never run the numbers for 40k, never it won't work out

the whole thing was written as a satire with big numbers to make a point, so if you apply logic it does not work any more

back in time were 10 Marine-Scouts were enough to fight and control an entire planet, and a single gun on a Space Ship needed 5.000 people to operate it, this gets down very fast
lets make this 5k being the whole crew including the additional non-operative people needed, the smaller ships having 8 big guns and you get 40.000 crewmen just to keep the guns running on a total crew of 21.000


lets base this on more realitic numbers, taking a Carrier as base
~5.000 people to get ~80 planes, make each fighter pilot a Space Marines (as his armour and weapons need maintenance in a similar way, yet 40k has servitors but those would be similar to modern day automatism) and a chapter would need ~60.000 people per battle bark making a fleet based chapter ~500.000 non-Marines

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I've always found the fleet based marines fascinating, I really like the idea of these civilisations in space ruled over by developmentally frozen, war obsessed monstrosities.

I love the idea of them recruiting from the crews, and therefore maintaining harsh conditions on the ships just to produce the right kind of aspirant. Imagine the lower decks of a black templars vessel, intentionally creating a tough environment where violence is needed, so that you have a sufficient supply of battle scarred eight year olds to recruit from.

I'd also like to see more reference to the distinct strain of humanity that is "void born", one of the cooler concepts from the 40K RPGs, and what it means to raise space marines from Void Born stock, whether they would also be pale and sinister looking.

Or stuff like the Carchadons, where they operate outside of Imperial space, and their fleets are battered monster hunters in the deep void. Loads of evocative potential there.

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I love the concept of fleet based chapters and both of my homebrew chapters have been such, my current one, the Void Hunters, focusing on the theme a bit more.

That being said, the numbers do not make any sense whatsoever. As you note, the tiniest escort ship could easily carry the whole chapter, yet, the marines have fleets of far larger ships (sizes of which each writer seems to keep inflating.) And remember the square-cube law, the volumes of several kilometres long ships are insane. Yet somehow we are to believe that a Strike Cruiser could carry and deploy only one company and a battle barge three. It doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, any combat power the actual marines would contribute, would be utterly dwarfed by the might of their fleet. Chapters would be mainly known for their naval superiority, and any planet or boarding actions they would undertake would just be a side note.

   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

In my head I shrink 40K ships down most of the time. The sizes as presented don't make any sense. But then again, barely anything about 40K space ships make sense, but they are just so damned cool.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Well the last bit of fluff on what a marine ship carried was in Epic Armageddon.

Strike Cruiser
Transport 100 marines, 20 vehicles, six Thunderhawks, enough drop pods plus many spares and enough Thunderhawk transporter and Landing craft to carry the vehicles (and troops if required) planetside.

BattleBarge
Transport 300 marines, 60 vehicles, nine Thunderhawks, enough drop pods plus many spares and enough Thunderhawk transporter and Landing craft to carry the vehicles (and troops if required) planetside.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Then look at Angels of Death, where the strike cruiser has one thunderhawk - which is broken (as of ep2).
   
Made in us
Crazed Troll Slayer




Charlotte, NC

P 30 of the Space Marines Codex has a crew compliment of a Cobra Class Destroyer. The crew consists of:

5 Space Marine( I assume that they are Tech Marines to sail the ship and not to use the boarding torpedo's.)
150 Serfs

I am sure that they have all kinds of Servitors to man the mundane functions of the ship, but over ten thousand seems a little extreme to me. As far as I can tell, the referenced source on how many are on escort ships come from a 2009 RPG game that was licensed to Fantasy Flight, meaning to me that I would take it with a ton of salt compared to what the creators had intended when BFG came out.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






TinyLegions wrote:
P 30 of the Space Marines Codex has a crew compliment of a Cobra Class Destroyer. The crew consists of:

5 Space Marine( I assume that they are Tech Marines to sail the ship and not to use the boarding torpedo's.)
150 Serfs

I am sure that they have all kinds of Servitors to man the mundane functions of the ship, but over ten thousand seems a little extreme to me. As far as I can tell, the referenced source on how many are on escort ships come from a 2009 RPG game that was licensed to Fantasy Flight, meaning to me that I would take it with a ton of salt compared to what the creators had intended when BFG came out.


Sure, I'd take FFG numbers with a grain of salt. But Cobra is, what? a kilometre and half long*? Aircraft carriers that are about 300 meters long have a crew of over five thousand. And Cobra has roughly 125 times the internal volume! Even if we assume that a space ship uses larger portion of its volume on engines and other tech, that is still insane amount of space. And this is literally the smallest ship that existed in BFG. A six kilometre long battlebarge would have 8000 times the volume of an aircract carrier! And then there was a mention of a twently kilometre long ship, that would have almost 300 000 times the volume of the carrier!

(* This may be FFG number as well though. Before FFG books, IIRC the fan estimation of Cobra was about 600 metres, which would give it 'only' eight times the volume of an aircraft carrier.)

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Space Marine vessels are superior to normal Navy vessels in most instances with regards to tech and whatnot. A lot of systems that might be manual on a Navy vessel could very well be automated.
As for crew, failed aspirants will make up a good portion of this. They can be made into servitors or if they aren't crippled just regular crew, perhaps even armsmen. So if you have 100 aspirants and 95 don't make the cut, that's 95 well trained serfs/potential meat sacks.
   
Made in us
Crazed Troll Slayer




Charlotte, NC

Some things to consider: The size of the crew on an aircraft carrier has more to do with the air operations rather than the physical crew to man the ship. Same thing for MEU ships, the crew to man the ship is a lot smaller than the marines that they are going to disembark. A better example would be the Arleigh Burke class Destroyers and Ticonderoga class Cruisers. Their numbers are as follows:

ABD = 303 Crew/155M = 1.95 Crew per meter of length
TC = 353 Crew/173M = 2.04 Crew per meter of length

I would assume that most surface fleets run with similar compliments. Submarines, and specifically Ballistic Missile submarines, may be a better comparison to space ships, however they have smaller crews:
Ohio Class Submarine = 155 Crew/170M = .90 Crew per meter of length.
Delta Class III(Russian) = 130 Crew/166M = .78 Crew per meter of length

Taking the 600 meters for a Cobra Class Destroyer(which makes sense to me) and taking an average of 2 crew per meter of length would get a compliment of 1200 crew to man a Cobra Class Destroyer. This is assuming that the functions of a starship needs the same manpower to run the ship are the same needs in the contemporary surface naval fleets. 1200 seems more reasonable compliment on a boat of that size to me than say 15000. Going back to my post from earlier that would mean that 155 active and thinking crew with 1045 servitors, but don't forget that Space Marines automate a lot more on a ship like that than standard Imperial Navy so even 1045 servitors may be a bit overly redundant for them.

Personally a Submarine is more in common with a space ship in my mind, so I would say that a Cobra that is 600 meters long, will likely have 600 to 700 as crew members, with Space Marines having more automation and more skilled/dedicated/entranced crew would lead me to believe that they have a smaller crew compliment. Also don't forget the dead space that a space ship will likely have. Those Warp Engines, Fusion Reactors, Missile Silos, etc. all take up a lot of space(half of the ship maybe?) and all are hazardous to humans, so the habitable space of a space ship like a Cobra is more like a Submarine to me than a Destroyer of today's Navy.

Your mileage may vary of course, but a crew of 15 thousand seems outlandish to me for a Cobra space ship.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 16:13:28


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






TinyLegions wrote:
Some things to consider: The size of the crew on an aircraft carrier has more to do with the air operations rather than the physical crew to man the ship. Same thing for MEU ships, the crew to man the ship is a lot smaller than the marines that they are going to disembark. A better example would be the Arleigh Burke class Destroyers and Ticonderoga class Cruisers. Their numbers are as follows:

ABD = 303 Crew/155M = 1.95 Crew per meter of length
TC = 353 Crew/173M = 2.04 Crew per meter of length

I would assume that most surface fleets run with similar compliments. Submarines, and specifically Ballistic Missile submarines, may be a better comparison to space ships, however they have smaller crews:
Ohio Class Submarine = 155 Crew/170M = .90 Crew per meter of length.
Delta Class III(Russian) = 130 Crew/166M = .78 Crew per meter of length

Taking the 600 meters for a Cobra Class Destroyer(which makes sense to me) and taking an average of 2 crew per meter of length would get a compliment of 1200 crew to man a Cobra Class Destroyer. This is assuming that the functions of a starship needs the same manpower to run the ship are the same needs in the contemporary surface naval fleets. 1200 seems more reasonable compliment on a boat of that size to me than say 15000. Going back to my post from earlier that would mean that 155 active and thinking crew with 1045 servitors, but don't forget that Space Marines automate a lot more on a ship like that than standard Imperial Navy so even 1045 servitors may be a bit overly redundant for them.

Personally a Submarine is more in common with a space ship in my mind, so I would say that a Cobra that is 600 meters long, will likely have 600 to 700 as crew members, with Space Marines having more automation and more skilled/dedicated/entranced crew would lead me to believe that they have a smaller crew compliment. Also don't forget the dead space that a space ship will likely have. Those Warp Engines, Fusion Reactors, Missile Silos, etc. all take up a lot of space(half of the ship maybe?) and all are hazardous to humans, so the habitable space of a space ship like a Cobra is more like a Submarine to me than a Destroyer of today's Navy.

Your mileage may vary of course, but a crew of 15 thousand seems outlandish to me for a Cobra space ship.


Why would you count by length rather than volume? It makes no sense.

   
Made in us
Crazed Troll Slayer




Charlotte, NC

Crimson wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:
Some things to consider: The size of the crew on an aircraft carrier has more to do with the air operations rather than the physical crew to man the ship. Same thing for MEU ships, the crew to man the ship is a lot smaller than the marines that they are going to disembark. A better example would be the Arleigh Burke class Destroyers and Ticonderoga class Cruisers. Their numbers are as follows:

ABD = 303 Crew/155M = 1.95 Crew per meter of length
TC = 353 Crew/173M = 2.04 Crew per meter of length

I would assume that most surface fleets run with similar compliments. Submarines, and specifically Ballistic Missile submarines, may be a better comparison to space ships, however they have smaller crews:
Ohio Class Submarine = 155 Crew/170M = .90 Crew per meter of length.
Delta Class III(Russian) = 130 Crew/166M = .78 Crew per meter of length

Taking the 600 meters for a Cobra Class Destroyer(which makes sense to me) and taking an average of 2 crew per meter of length would get a compliment of 1200 crew to man a Cobra Class Destroyer. This is assuming that the functions of a starship needs the same manpower to run the ship are the same needs in the contemporary surface naval fleets. 1200 seems more reasonable compliment on a boat of that size to me than say 15000. Going back to my post from earlier that would mean that 155 active and thinking crew with 1045 servitors, but don't forget that Space Marines automate a lot more on a ship like that than standard Imperial Navy so even 1045 servitors may be a bit overly redundant for them.

Personally a Submarine is more in common with a space ship in my mind, so I would say that a Cobra that is 600 meters long, will likely have 600 to 700 as crew members, with Space Marines having more automation and more skilled/dedicated/entranced crew would lead me to believe that they have a smaller crew compliment. Also don't forget the dead space that a space ship will likely have. Those Warp Engines, Fusion Reactors, Missile Silos, etc. all take up a lot of space(half of the ship maybe?) and all are hazardous to humans, so the habitable space of a space ship like a Cobra is more like a Submarine to me than a Destroyer of today's Navy.

Your mileage may vary of course, but a crew of 15 thousand seems outlandish to me for a Cobra space ship.


Why would you count by length rather than volume? It makes no sense.


To be fair you started with length. See below.

Crimson wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:
P 30 of the Space Marines Codex has a crew compliment of a Cobra Class Destroyer. The crew consists of:

5 Space Marine( I assume that they are Tech Marines to sail the ship and not to use the boarding torpedo's.)
150 Serfs

I am sure that they have all kinds of Servitors to man the mundane functions of the ship, but over ten thousand seems a little extreme to me. As far as I can tell, the referenced source on how many are on escort ships come from a 2009 RPG game that was licensed to Fantasy Flight, meaning to me that I would take it with a ton of salt compared to what the creators had intended when BFG came out.


Sure, I'd take FFG numbers with a grain of salt. But Cobra is, what? a kilometre and half long*? Aircraft carriers that are about 300 meters long have a crew of over five thousand. And Cobra has roughly 125 times the internal volume! Even if we assume that a space ship uses larger portion of its volume on engines and other tech, that is still insane amount of space. And this is literally the smallest ship that existed in BFG. A six kilometre long battlebarge would have 8000 times the volume of an aircract carrier! And then there was a mention of a twently kilometre long ship, that would have almost 300 000 times the volume of the carrier!

(* This may be FFG number as well though. Before FFG books, IIRC the fan estimation of Cobra was about 600 metres, which would give it 'only' eight times the volume of an aircraft carrier.)


You are right, it is not a good comparison, but I did not start off using length as a comparison. You have no mention of full dimensions for the Cobra and a passing mention on volume. Is there any "creditable" source on volume sizes of the BFG fleet? Where are you getting the 8 times the volume of an aircraft carrier, or for that matter 125 and 8000? Having said that, should a ship not be rated by displacement and not volume? Admittingly it may be harder to do for a space ship, but that is usually how most ships are compared against each other.
Displacement figures are as follows:

Arleagh Burke Destroyer = 9300/323 = 28.79 Tones per crewmen

Ticonderoga Cruiser = 9600/330 = 29.09

Ohio Ballistic Missile Submarine (submerged) = 18750/155 = 120.96 (surface) 16764/155 = 108.15

Ford Class Carrier(Full air compliment) = 100000/5000 = 20


This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 18:23:22


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






TinyLegions wrote:

You are right, it is not a good comparison, but I did not start off using length as a comparison. You have no mention of full dimensions for the Cobra and a passing mention on volume. Is there any "creditable" source on volume sizes of the BFG fleet? Where are you getting the 8 times the volume of an aircraft carrier, or for that matter 125 and 8000?

It's just math*, based on the assumption that 40K ships are roughly 'ship shaped' which they are. Sure, 40K ship and an aircraft carrier are not exactly the same shape, but close enough for ballpark estimates.

* The square–cube law: when an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier and its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier. So if you multiple the dimensions of an object by X, the new volume is X^3.

   
Made in us
Crazed Troll Slayer




Charlotte, NC

 Crimson wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:

You are right, it is not a good comparison, but I did not start off using length as a comparison. You have no mention of full dimensions for the Cobra and a passing mention on volume. Is there any "creditable" source on volume sizes of the BFG fleet? Where are you getting the 8 times the volume of an aircraft carrier, or for that matter 125 and 8000?

It's just math*, based on the assumption that 40K ships are roughly 'ship shaped' which they are. Sure, 40K ship and an aircraft carrier are not exactly the same shape, but close enough for ballpark estimates.

* The square–cube law: when an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier and its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier. So if you multiple the dimensions of an object by X, the new volume is X^3.


The above in bold is very condescending. How the hell is anyone know what you are talking about when you don't show what and how you come up with your figures! It also is lazy to make me read your mind, which I eventually was able to do, once I read through the Square-Cube Law. Last time that I was in math class was 20 years ago in Engineering calculus, so it may have come up but I certainly don't remember what the Square-Cube Law is off hand. Could you not have included any of this in your earlier posts? Now that I know how you came up with your size figure between a Cobra Destroyer and an Aircraft Carrier, I take it that a space ship eight times an Aircraft Carrier would have eight times the crew, but that would make a Cobra class Destroyer to have 40,000 crewmembers.(Aircraft Carriers being about 5000 in crewmembers: 5000*8=40,000 See that is how you show your work.) That is over 2.5 times what the outlandish numbers from FFG even with the larger size.

I am leaving this conversation so reply or not, it is up to you.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




You have to remember a space ship has to carry all its food and water with it, modern navy ships can get away with the latter these days by having water purifiers onboard. While you could say an Imperial Navy vessel might have some form of water recycling system it can't generate water from nowhere.

So I'd expect much of the vessels bulk would be made up of armour, as it has to resist weapons similar to what it carries and what it carries is devastating. Then it has the engines, the void shield generator, the warp drive, the weapons, ammunition storage, the generators/batteries to provide/store the power for all the former as well as the day-to-day electrical requirements, the bridge, room for the navigator, room for the astropaths, etc.

   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

TinyLegions wrote:
That is over 2.5 times what the outlandish numbers from FFG even with the larger size.
I am leaving this conversation so reply or not, it is up to you.

even if you leave, I already said in my other post that the numbers make no sense and there is no point using as a Cobra being 21.000 Crewmembers by FFG while the GW sources say that the weapons alone need 40.000 to operate

a Cobra might well only have 5000 Crewmembers and the rest being storage space which would make more sense for a ship that size


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




A post and short story about crew sizes by Andy Chambers (creator of BFG) on the old BFG mailing list is preserved at https://www.wolfedengames.com/battlefleet-gothic-crew-sizes-in-battlefleet-gothic-at-the-wolfe-den/

1.5-2k per damage point for Imperial ships, yielding about 12-16k crew for a cruiser (+ability to embark Imperial Guard 1/3-1/2 their crew size so up to an additional 8k infantry, the average size of a Cadian infantry regiment).


Whenever people try to bring up real world ship crew densities, people forget that it is not a direct translation to equivalent density in 40K.

Yes, ships are packed in certain areas tightly with crew, akin to the Age of Sail. However other areas are described as vast cathedral like spaces and for senior officers to have lavish palatial quarters (see the Gordon Rennie novels). So it is equally possible to have both kinds of environment. In fact, given the low priority the Imperium places on the average crew member, it would not be surprising that the crew quarters are cramped, because all the space has been allocated to "essential" ship functions. That includes big cathedral like spaces for religious ceremonies since in the Imperium that is an essential function. Smaller shrines are also tucked away here and there in the ship.

Likewise as others have said, large chunks of the ship are going to not need crew. Remember, that crew fulfill a purpose. Just having volume doesn't mean crew is needed. Fuel tanks, power conduits, bulkheads, ammunition stores, etc... are all areas that don't need constant babysitting with somebody sitting there all the time. Also, 40K is a universe where machinery has been engineered to be able to be mothballed for literally centuries and work fine (see Forge World Siege of Vraks books), and where ships can have thousands of years of operational lifespan. This far exceeds modern ships. So much of the function of crew, that of maintenance, is likely not needed to the same extent. This is especially so when it comes to the Adeptus Mechanicus and its jealous hoarding of knowledge. Much of the machinery on a ship is going to be "black boxes" that nobody is going to touch outside of dry dock.

This is shown in the novel Execution Hour where a daemon manifests in an out of the way part of the ship that is deserted during combat. This means that not all parts of the ship are going to be crammed to the brim flying ghettos of humanity.

There is also the bit from Andy Chambers that I posted earlier saying Imperial ships also have additional space to transport ground troops from 1/3 to 1/2 their total crew size. This adds further to the amount of space allocated and essentially not needing crew.

Finally, 40K ships have missions that can last far longer than comparable modern ships, and is more akin to the Age of Sail. See below:


Marquis Lex
Held the record until 657.M41 for ship on longest patrol (1,741 days)
(BFG supplement Warp Storm p. 75)


A lone ship on nearly 5 years patrol. That is a lot of stores to carry, and also atmosphere (or atmosphere processors). By comparison, modern ships like a carrier, are surrounded by various support ships and have shorter duration patrols.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

cody.d. wrote:
I'd imagine a single squad or small warband of chaos marines could hack and chop their way from one side of a ship to the other until they met something that was their equivalent.

If they stay in decks with narrower confines where superior numbers cannot be brought to bear, then yes, possibly. Though the crew can still lay traps and explosives in their path.


I am assuming of course this is a "why do marines exist when we have big ships and big guns" sort of thread.

I don't think anybody questions the usefulness of highly-trained tactical squads in certain situations. Sometimes you need to take back the captured facility without destroying it, or make extra sure the target is dead, or get the governor out alive, etc.


 kodos wrote:
back in time were 10 Marine-Scouts were enough to fight and control an entire planet, and a single gun on a Space Ship needed 5.000 people to operate it, this gets down very fast

I'd probably ignore those numbers, then. What do those 5,000 gun operators even do, on an individual basis?


Iracundus wrote:
There is also the bit from Andy Chambers that I posted earlier saying Imperial ships also have additional space to transport ground troops from 1/3 to 1/2 their total crew size.

I imagine Marines use that area to carry their own regiments of Imperial Guard (or some chapter serf equivalent). A chapter isn't big enough to occupy territory and garrison fortresses without non-Marine auxiliaries.

.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






-Guardsman- wrote:

I imagine Marines use that area to carry their own regiments of Imperial Guard (or some chapter serf equivalent). A chapter isn't big enough to occupy territory and garrison fortresses without non-Marine auxiliaries.

Remeber Astartes vessels are designed for boarding actions both aggressive and defensive. A lot of "space" on an Astartes vessel isn't actually anything but armour plating or boarding launch points.
Astartes also don't garrison planets or territory besides their homeworld, if they have one. They are a mobile force and are oftne deployed in small groups. A Chapter might garrison a sacred place or recruiting world but even then it will be a support officer, like a Chaplain or Librarian, and a single squad. They certainly don't have Militarum regiment sized auxiliary forces under their command, the Codex Astartes forbids it.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

-Guardsman- wrote:
I'd probably ignore those numbers, then. What do those 5,000 gun operators even do, on an individual basis?

well, loading and aiming?




operating a gun means anything from loading to keep it working, in 4 shifts and might as well include the additional non-operative crew you need to get things running (starting from the people to prepare the meals)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Is there any reason why you need 10k people to run a ship? Can’t 1k marines do the same work flying the ship as 10k humans? The souls drinkers were space based and ran their own fleet.

However I do prefer the idea of space marine chapter having lots of serf running around keeping everything going while still the space marines arrogantly aren’t aware of what they are contributing
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







You do need 10k people to run a modern shop. They just arent all in that ship. According to Wikipedia, the US Navy has about 300 active ships and requires about 450k personnel to run the whole shebang. That doesn’t count the massively extended civilian supply chain required to construct, maintain and resupply all the ships. If you are sending a lone ship off into the void for a few years, quite a lot of that kit will need to go with them.

(I realise that 450000/300 is about 1k per ship. I’m hyperboleing )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/08 07:49:11


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Just to point out that Astartes Chapters are often specifically noted as having "empty" ships and bases. Many ships come from the Legion days when a compliment would often be two or more Companies per Cruiser, with Battlebarges being much more. Its noted in the Fists 8th Ed Supplement IIRC that the introduction of the Primaris to the Fists and their Successors ranks has seen the Phalanx actually almost fill its capacity as a Legion flagship for the first time since the War of the Beast. Maccrages Honour is talked about in the same way, that despite having multiple Chapters crusading with him, Guilliman notes the emptiness of his flagship compared to the days of the Legion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 08:04:04


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Yep Astartes are numerically and even militarily insignificant even inside their own Chapters.

Yet if you hint to the fact that the "emperor is naked" and that if you think about it for a minute Astartes are just (or mainly) a propaganda tool for the IOM in the 40k universe and a vessel for juvenile power fantasies for GW costumers in RL... Then quite a few people will get mad at you and start a witch hunt.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Because the favored action taken by many chaos factions and Space Marines as well is boarding. And because one squad of terminators successfully boarding a battleship means that battleship is dead because nothing on it can stand up against a single squad of terminators. It might take them a while to slaughter their way to the bridge, but they will eventually get there.

Mere mortals are no match for hulking space marines in the close confines of a spaceship. Space Marines will walk through them like chaff, and this would apply doubly for Terminators.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks for confirming by POV.... dear Eldenfirefly

If a single squad of termies was sent into a boarding action against a battleship they would be out of ammo for their bolter and heavy weapons and their CC weapons will be depleted/broken/useless at half the way ... even if the only thing the OPFOR crew/chaff did was sitting quietly and in order in the wide corridors of their battleship waiting for execution.

Perhaps with enough resupplies (from the chapter serfs and servitors) the termies might be able to slaugther the way into the bridge after a week.

Meanwhile, the "non astartes" elements of the chapter perhaps have been able to defeat altogether the OPFOR fleet... obviously all the honour and attetion will be won by the Termies.

Yep, thats how idiotic loyalist SM are in the setting because GW dont want to multiply their numbers in a significant manner for esoteric reason.
   
 
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