"Super Doctrines", do any new codexes not have them?

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**ph34r**

I'm talking about the sort where you must have only that sort of detachment, in order to get all of your army's special rules. Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marines, I know they have it but I'm not familiar with other new codexes. Are sororitas like this? Are Imperial Soup armies going to be made basically unplayable going forward?

**sanguine40k**

Pretty much - gw are doing their utmost to kill soup.

**Jidmah**

Well, orks don't have one, but that's neither here nor there since they can't form an army with another codex anyways. DG, Drukhari and TS have one, and additionally many benefits like relics and stratagems are tied to having a warlord of that faction.

**vict0988**

ph34r wrote:
I'm talking about the sort where you must have only that sort of detachment, in order to get all of your army's special rules. Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marines, I know they have it but I'm not familiar with other new codexes. Are sororitas like this? Are Imperial Soup armies going to be made basically unplayable going forward?

At the end of the day it all comes down to points, if an Imperium army ends up having a unit that is undercosted enough then players of other Imperium factions are going to soup that unit into their army.

Adepta Sororitas get Miracle Dice which allows them to store dice rolls depending on certain factors to later use for important dice rolls instead of rolling dice normally.

Adeptus Mechanicus get Doctrina Imperatives which changes the stats of half the units in the codex to make them better at one thing while making them worse at another thing, it's possible to keep them and include a Knight.

Grey Knights have Tides of the Warp which can buff different things depending on which tide is dominant.

Space Marines have Combat Doctrines which improves the AP of certain types of weapons, depending on the battle round and the player's choice. Space Marines also get an additional buff if their army contains only models from one chapter, this buff only applies when a specific Combat Doctrine is applied.

Death Guard get Contagions of Nurgle which give gradually a gradually larger aura as the game goes on, usually reducing Toughness of enemy units in reach of the aura.

Thousand Sons can spend a special currency to boost their psychic powers depending on how many psykers they have.

Drukhari get more and more buffs as the game goes on via Power from Pain.

Necrons get Command Protocols if they have the right type of Warlord and don't include units from multiple dynasties. Command Protocols lets the player decide after deployment which rounds they want what Protocol, at the start of each battle round the Necron player must decide to get one of the two auras listed under the protocol they assigned to the battle round and if conditions are met then characters get that aura.

Orks have nothing like this.

**hobojebus**

Soup lists were a broken mess, remember how every Eldar list was ynnari before the nerf.

**vipoid**

I mean, it depends what you count.

Marines got bonus rules relative to their previous books.

Dark Eldar just had one of their core rules changed into a super-doctrine (so they no longer benefit from PfP if they ally).

**Nym**

I guess it's just become normal for Orks to have less tools than Imperial armies. Ditto for Drukhari whose Super Doctrine is just their previous "faction" ability...

**Crispy78**

vipoid wrote:

Dark Eldar just had one of their core rules changed into a super-doctrine (so they no longer benefit from PfP if they ally).

Which is a little disappointing, as it would be entirely fluffy to take Harlequins as allies

**Crimson**

I get that soup was too dominant, but I really dislike all these new anti-soup rules. I feel that now that detachments cost CP, they are really not needed for balance. I really like doing all sort of mixed armies and many make perfect sense in the fluff.

**Jidmah**

Nym wrote:
I guess it's just become normal for Orks to have less tools than Imperial armies. Ditto for Drukhari whose Super Doctrine is just their previous "faction" ability...

Please inform yourself before defaulting to whining. Orks got two kinds of Waaagh!, Kustom Jobs, Kultures and Specialist Mobs, they just don't give a zog about what others are doing as long as there is a Warboss leading the way. While they technically do not have a doctrine that prevents them from souping (which they can't do anyways), they get about as much as everyone else.

**Galas**

Orks lost the warboss waaagh hability but the warboss received a +1 to hit aura in compensation. So the "general rule applied to the army to buff it" that they received is the new Waaagh! mechanic.

**Jidmah**

They also got the specialist mobs.

But but the OP was asking about anti-soup measures, and the person I was responding to assumed that orks didn't get anything.

**addnid**

Orks also have a strat and a WLT "locked in" the klan chosen for the warlord. But that is a slightly different matter.

**Jidmah**

I think most armies have that now. Unless you are marines, then you get a whole supplement book instead.

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
I get that soup was too dominant, but I really dislike all these new anti-soup rules. I feel that now that detachments cost CP, they are really not needed for balance. I really like doing all sort of mixed armies and many make perfect sense in the fluff.

Unfortunately, GW is only able to rebalance by means of a sledgehammer.

**Blackie**

Crimson wrote:
I get that soup was too dominant, but I really dislike all these new anti-soup rules. I feel that now that detachments cost CP, they are really not needed for balance. I really like doing all sort of mixed armies and many make perfect sense in the fluff.

You can still play soups of every kind. They just won't be competitive at tournament levels.

**Jidmah**

Blackie wrote:
Crimson wrote:
I get that soup was too dominant, but I really dislike all these new anti-soup rules. I feel that now that detachments cost CP, they are really not needed for balance. I really like doing all sort of mixed armies and many make perfect sense in the fluff.

You can still play soups of every kind. They just won't be competitive at tournament levels.

Yeah, this. We have a Guard/Salamanders/Knight(singular) player and his green men are doing just fine without a situational +1 to wound and extra AP.

**Galas**

Some factions lose more than others, and not even talking here about "competitive power"

As marine, losing your -1 extra AP doesn't hurt that much from a "I'm not gonna play this army competitively but because I like it" because is a straight up, boring bonus to your lethality.

But other armies lose their fluffy rules if they mix and match, for example Sisters of Battle losing Miracles or Drukhari losing Power from Pain.

**SemperMortis**

Jidmah wrote:
Nym wrote:
I guess it's just become normal for Orks to have less tools than Imperial armies. Ditto for Drukhari whose Super Doctrine is just their previous "faction" ability...

Please inform yourself before defaulting to whining. Orks got two kinds of Waaagh!, Kustom Jobs, Kultures and Specialist Mobs, they just don't give a zog about what others are doing as long as there is a Warboss leading the way. While they technically do not have a doctrine that prevents them from souping (which they can't do anyways), they get about as much as everyone else.

To be fair Jidmah, the point was that Orkz didn't get a super doctrine. We did get Kustom Jobz and Specialist mobz, not much of it is worth taking but we did get them. Kultures...everyone got these so its not really a fair comparison to that of a super doctrine and the WAAAAGH ability is a repurposed rule from the Warboss which was buffed a bit but reduced in duration while also increasing its tactical foot print (IE not an aura, its army wide now).

A comparable "buff" would be if Marine Chapter Masters lost their re-roll aura but it became a once a game ability while the Chapter Master himself gained something like +1 leadership aura.

**Galas**

I mean, +1 to hit is a pretty bit better than +1 leadership. (And chapter masters lost their rerroll aura. Is a targetable hability in the command phase now)

I believe orks ended up winning trading the warboss waaagh aura for a +1 to hit aura and the Waagh army wide hability.

The real shame is they spend all their budget in that one rule and they used it for literally everything in the codex, because they could have given much more interesting rules to the beast boss, the nob banner, etc...

**Jidmah**

Sorry Semper, but I'm not going to discuss that kind of thing with you anymore. If you think that extending an aura from 6" until the bearer's death to infinite range for two turns even if the bearer dies, that affects more units from before and gives +1 attack for every single model in your army, while also gaining a +1 to hit aura that affects himself is a nerf, more power to you. Just don't compare it to a +1 ld aura, that is 100% dishonest.

The Speed Waaagh! provides AP-1 to all weapons in a properly build army for two turns, plus extra bonuses in one turn. Sounds very much like a doctrine equivalent to me.

**VladimirHerzog**

I think theyre overcorrecting a problem once again. Soup is fine if the units are balanced.
And some soup shouldnt break "Super doctrines".

Allying a knight with anything Imperium/Chaos Space Marines should be allowed
Tzeentch demons + Thousand sons should be allowed
Nurgles demons + Nurgle should be allowerd
Drukhari + Harlequins should be allowed

**vict0988**

Crimson wrote:
I get that soup was too dominant, but I really dislike all these new anti-soup rules. I feel that now that detachments cost CP, they are really not needed for balance. I really like doing all sort of mixed armies and many make perfect sense in the fluff.

What is the correct amount of rules for a list to have?

If you play against Salamanders SM, Argent Shroud Sisters and Mars AdMech then you've got 3 Chapter Tactics. If you just play Salamanders SM you get 1 Chapter Tactic, 1 Combat Doctrine ability and 1 super Doctrine ability. So if GW thinks 1 ability is too little and 4 abilities is too much then the current rule makes sense. None of these abilities are balanced, if a unit is balanced with it then it will be underpowered without it and if it is balanced without it then it is overpowered with it. There might be a rare unit that is balanced with or without it due to some combination of factors, but generally no. It's just mini-games and fluffy stuff and then being mean to soupers. While you might think soup is fine, a tonne of people were fed up with soup in 8th and I have listened to tonnes of podcasters praise the bloat.

I don't like Chapter Tactics, Combat Doctrines or Super Doctrines, I think pick your own Stratagems and more varied and viable WL traits would better serve to flavour armies while avoiding bloat.

**Spoletta**

Doctrines are fine like they are.
They provide a meaningful choice between soup and no soup.

Grey knights are being played both in soup and in no soup.
DE are being played both in soup and in no soup.
DG are being played both in soup and in no soup.
Sisters are being played both in soup and in no soup.
Marines of all chapters are being played both in soup and in no soup.
Necrons are being played both in multi dinasty and in mono dinasty.

And I'm talking in competitive games.

Doctrines have really opened a lot of new kinds of list, instead of 8th's "The answer is soup".

**Cynista**

Spoletta wrote:
Necrons are being played both in multi dinasty and in mono dinasty.

That is because nobody cares about their version of super doctrines, as they are garbage. Nothing about command protocols is fine

**Spoletta**

Doctrine's bonuses are in line with the opportunity cost they involve.

They could technically be like Orks which have a big fat NOTHING as doctrine.

They instead were given a small buff if they want to go mono dinasty, since someone at GW decided that mono dinasty was fluffy and wanted to encourage it, while there is nothing wrong with Orks mixing clans.

Protocols are a small buff because the cost is small. Nothing wrong with them.

**Cynista**

Spoletta wrote:
Protocols are a small buff because the cost is small. Nothing wrong with them.

You're going to have to adequately explain that one. Without using Orks as an analogy, as has already mentioned in this thread they are a false equivalent who are plenty powerful without having a super doctrine baked in, unlike Necrons.

**vict0988**

Necrons lose access to multi-dynasty armies which is an insignificant loss and gain protocols, an insignificant buff. If protocols were stronger multi-dynasty armies would be relatively weaker. Orks are stronger than Necrons because of pts costs on a few units being low, not because of rules or Necrons being terrible.

**yukishiro1**

Doctrines and superdoctrines are two different things. Many books lack superdoctrines, which are bonuses for staying within one *subfaction* of a given Codex. Grey Knights and Thousand Sons both have no superdoctrine, for example - you can freely mix subfactions with no penalty. In fact, superdoctrines are quite rare - Necrons and Space Marines are, unless I'm forgetting someone, the only ones that have them?

No books lack doctrines, which are purity bonuses for not taking units outside the Codex, except those books that can't take units outside their own faction to begin with (Necrons, Orks).

It's very clear 9th edition will give bonuses to every faction for not allying in another faction, if they have the capability to do so. The power of those bonuses varies fairly wildly, however. You almost never see space marines taken with non-space marines, for example, because giving up doctrines is such a massive loss. Other factions, like DE, lose quite a bit, but also gain enough to offset it if you build carefully. And then there's factions like Grey Knights where the purity bonus is relatively small, so they are quite attractive as soup with another faction that doesn't have a significant penalty.

**NinthMusketeer**

I see it as three tiers;

A baseline bonus units get from being in an army that is battle forged.
-An additional bonus units get from being in an army that is battle forged from one codex.
--Another additional bonus units get from being in an army that is battle forged from one codex and one subfaction.

For the likes of Necrons or Orks the first two are indistinguishable; there is no need to write a rule to detail bonuses being lost from souping when the army in question cannot soup in the first place.

I really, really like the concept. It is intuitive and allows for more specific armies to get bonuses compensating for the loss of benefits from souping without invalidating either approach. GW botches the execution with horrible balance, but that's no surprise to anyone.