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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda


I'd like the communities thoughts on what is considered a fair rate for commission sculpting for miniatures. Nearly the majority of commission sculpts that have been requested of me on Dakka have ghosted me once I list my rates. I always found it curious. In other 3D modelling communities, my rates are low in comparison.

So I'm really curious what the community thinks a fair and reasonable rate for commission sculpting is worth. 3D modelling can take a lot more effort than a traditional 2D artist. Often the programs and cost tripling the amount of money required to do 3D modelling compared to 2D programs. Some programs and equipment costing over 800 to 4000 usd.

I did some quick googling and pulled up some numbers. On average rates.

"The type of 3D modeling you need — architectural, product, mechanical or graphic animation — can affect the total cost of your project. If you want to print a 3D model of your design, the cost of 3D printing will increase your project cost. The most significant cost factor is how much time a 3D designer estimates that your project will take. The nationwide average hourly rate for 3D designers ranges between $25 and $55, although rates can be higher for more skilled and experienced designers. The complexity of your design will affect the cost, as will the designer's experience, training and education. Most 3D design projects take at least half a day. Flat project fees can start around $300 and go up to $2,000 or more, especially if you require multiple revisions. To be cost-efficient with the 3D modeling and design process, frame as clear an idea of what you want the outcome to be as you can before you hire the professional. Making multiple changes to incorporate new ideas as you go will result in a longer process and a higher total project cost. If you need your 3D designer to have any specialized industry knowledge, be it science, construction or otherwise, there may be a higher cost for their services. " - https://www.thumbtack.com/p/3d-modeling-price

And when you compare that to just plain old 2D art. "On average, pricing for commissioned painting from an experienced artist starts at $100 and can go as high as $10,000."- https://www.mademay.com/post/how-much-does-it-cost-to-commission-customized-art-4-main-guideline

Now I've personally had to deal with illustrators that worked out a deal of around 4000$ on the low end for painting for commercial uses so that I could retain the copyrights for 10 images. However, I cancelled after the artist was unwilling to negotiate some minor details.

I personally consider the amount of work doing 3D modelling to take a lot longer than 2D art. So I'm confused as to why people think that hours and hours of highly skilled labour in a trade that a few people even know how to do is valued at less than barely legible furry art. Which is something I've often thought about doing simply because it's lucrative as heck.

So the question is why is one valued more than the other? Is it an inherent bias against 3D artists? Is our time not as valuable? Are we supposed to charge the same rate for a commission piece as Patreon models catalogues ?

To be clear I'm not making any judgments on people that ghost me on Dakka. The industry is saturated with 20$ miniatures on Thingiverse or 20$ for a pack of custom heads on a bitz website so I can understand people not understanding bulk selling vs custom work Commission rates. So I understand the reaction.

But it's still somewhat unfortunate that people outright ghost you after listing what I personally consider a low ball rate for miniatures. I've even had people ghost me over commercial rates assuming they could request hundreds of hours of complex works so they could profit off it for less than 20$. Literally assuming I'd be happy to lose money. (Meaning I could be doing something else more profitable with my time, plus rent, hydro equipment maintenance, lawyers fees to verify contracts are legitimate etc)

So what are your thoughts on commission rates? How much do you think is a reasonable price?

The above poll I'm listing is hourly rates USD or American Dollars. Not flat rates.









This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 10:22:15


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Welcome to the world of working.

It's important to realise that the kind of person who understands and appreciates the cost of 3D sculpting is likely the kind of person who already works in the industry at some level. Even then the level they are at and the nature of their industry and the country they are in will all influence their perceived value of the product.

Someone who sculpts for a Patreon releasing monthly models and selling those digital files at volume might well consider the value of an individual file less than someone making one off masters for a production firm. Similarly a "home user" who wants a cool part for their model will not only have a different perception of value, but a different budget to a company.


A person might consider an alternate arm worth £5 because that's what a part costs in plastic; meanwhile a company might consider it worth £100 because they can then turn around and cast hundreds to sell.



Against all that you've also got to consider that different artists work at different rates and speeds. Some will turn out in 1 hour what takes another 4 hours to complete.

On top of that different countries have a huge impact, you list just numbers above in the poll. 100 British Pounds are very different to 100 Mexican Dollars.



And we've not even touched on your own personal perception of the value of your skill and how much per hour you want to be paid and need to be paid to make it worth your while.






In the end yes if you are hunting around Dakka chances are you are at the lower end of the market. You're pitching to hobby level people who might just want a cool model or part or sculpt for fun. Their perception of value is going to be matching your sculpt against an already finished commercial STL/cast model for sale. At which point many will flake out because your prices are going to be too high for them.

You're basically sounding like you're pitching to the wrong kind of customers for your intended product.

Now you might overcome that by establishing yourself and showing off the quality of what you can produce. Basically marketing and advertising yourself a LOT LOT more than you currently do (I think in the past you had a website offering sculpting lessons and you had I think 3 or 5 or so displays and the only finished models were I think a few hammers and a mounted lancer).
Perhaps start a thread where you can show off your latest sculpts; show off prints of your sculpts. If you're doing parts for models show your parts that you've already made, printed and attached to existing models.

Basically instead of just giving people quotes, show them what they are buying. Show them what they are likely to get as a result of your time and their money. Heck doing a twitch channel and doing a stream when you sculpt can also help a lot. Now you're showing people how long things really do take; what care and skill you put into sculpting. You're making them part of the process at the same time as marketing toward the general population. Then when you start quoting prices your customers aren't just looking at other established brands; they are looking at the skill of your output; the time you put into them and your marketing is already making them want to own what you design.



Right now you're basically an unknown. You don't have enough or anything really up to show your style of sculpting; you don't have a huge body of work standing proud nor any community relations building to give you a casual fanbase. If you look around at artists who get commissions they have detailed portfolios; they have community relations; they market, they display, they attract those who like their style.


You're approaching this from the concept of perceived value of a thing and I've noted that really you're approaching it from the wrong angle. You're thinking purely in terms of money and I think you've got to step back from that because all you'll get from that is "cheaper is better"

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

From other projects of a similar nature I would expect an estimate of the hours needed, then a quote for hourly rate and a figure for equipment and materials. Laying it out like that makes things a lot clearer to the buyer and perhaps more understandable.

For a straight 28mm greenstuff/equivalent model from someone with a steady job (so extra work on the side) that can be done in a day (8 hours), normally involving elements of completed models, I have seen plenty of quotes for £100-£150 cash. For someone doing this as their job as an established studio as scheduled work £250 is more like the starting level. If you want bronzes, moulds etc that is all separately costed.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Similar with all kind of art, not only for 3D art/printing

people not understanding that a individual/comission work being much more expensive than a copy&paste machine one sold in packages of 100

why is the one hand drawn picture that is exactly like I wanted it to be 500-1000 while the printed one that looks similar cost 10
a C&C cut or printed wooden sculptuere sold for less than the material would cost to make the same sized one by hand

one big problem here is hobby vs job
those that don't need to make a living but just use it to get some extra from stuff they would do anyway and can use copy&paste a lot are going to sell art for much less than those who need to pay taxes and cover their costs
(even with professional artists as there are those were making art is their main job, while others work as teacher, for a university or anything else so they don't need to sell their art to survive)

Being not known in the community is a different story, as those who have a name can charge more than those who are unkown, not matter if they are better or not


So you get those people who sell stuff for cheap because they do it anyway and so can get at least something, those that need to cover their cost to make a living, and those that can be expensive because they are famous

That most people who want something individual to 3D print would be better of buying a box of plastic models and start kitbashing is another problem that comes with the illusion that 3D printing must be always the cheapest option

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Overread wrote:
Welcome to the world of working.

It's important to realise that the kind of person who understands and appreciates the cost of 3D sculpting is likely the kind of person who already works in the industry at some level. Even then the level they are at and the nature of their industry and the country they are in will all influence their perceived value of the product.

Someone who sculpts for a Patreon releasing monthly models and selling those digital files at volume might well consider the value of an individual file less than someone making one off masters for a production firm. Similarly a "home user" who wants a cool part for their model will not only have a different perception of value, but a different budget to a company.


A person might consider an alternate arm worth £5 because that's what a part costs in plastic; meanwhile a company might consider it worth £100 because they can then turn around and cast hundreds to sell.



Against all that you've also got to consider that different artists work at different rates and speeds. Some will turn out in 1 hour what takes another 4 hours to complete.

On top of that different countries have a huge impact, you list just numbers above in the poll. 100 British Pounds are very different to 100 Mexican Dollars.



And we've not even touched on your own personal perception of the value of your skill and how much per hour you want to be paid and need to be paid to make it worth your while.






In the end yes if you are hunting around Dakka chances are you are at the lower end of the market. You're pitching to hobby level people who might just want a cool model or part or sculpt for fun. Their perception of value is going to be matching your sculpt against an already finished commercial STL/cast model for sale. At which point many will flake out because your prices are going to be too high for them.

You're basically sounding like you're pitching to the wrong kind of customers for your intended product.

Now you might overcome that by establishing yourself and showing off the quality of what you can produce. Basically marketing and advertising yourself a LOT LOT more than you currently do (I think in the past you had a website offering sculpting lessons and you had I think 3 or 5 or so displays and the only finished models were I think a few hammers and a mounted lancer).
Perhaps start a thread where you can show off your latest sculpts; show off prints of your sculpts. If you're doing parts for models show your parts that you've already made, printed and attached to existing models.

Basically instead of just giving people quotes, show them what they are buying. Show them what they are likely to get as a result of your time and their money. Heck doing a twitch channel and doing a stream when you sculpt can also help a lot. Now you're showing people how long things really do take; what care and skill you put into sculpting. You're making them part of the process at the same time as marketing toward the general population. Then when you start quoting prices your customers aren't just looking at other established brands; they are looking at the skill of your output; the time you put into them and your marketing is already making them want to own what you design.



Right now you're basically an unknown. You don't have enough or anything really up to show your style of sculpting; you don't have a huge body of work standing proud nor any community relations building to give you a casual fanbase. If you look around at artists who get commissions they have detailed portfolios; they have community relations; they market, they display, they attract those who like their style.


You're approaching this from the concept of perceived value of a thing and I've noted that really you're approaching it from the wrong angle. You're thinking purely in terms of money and I think you've got to step back from that because all you'll get from that is "cheaper is better"


I've stated before that I'm already an established professional as in I make my living off of 3D modelling and that the lion's share of my portfolio isn't on Dakka for specific reasons relating to community feedback being wildly inconsistent from praise, to hostility and isn't germane to the poll and topic so I won't be going into detail as to why some of it under NDA's others are not being released until the IPs are finished, or are not related to miniatures. And nor do I think it's important when single images can show more than enough skill to demonstrate you can do what you need to do.

Whether or not something is printed is an interesting observation I've not considered being important, but it is something to consider. Personally, I don't understand what the point is of wasting money printing the object in a render. What you see in the render is what you get from the printer. What is relevant to the topic is what people think a fair price for commission sculpting is

You state that rather than just giving people quotes "show them what you're buying" I do so by giving them a few images relevant to what they want or quickly sculpting a concept sketch. So I don't agree with your assessment. I will not be posting my full portfolio on DakkaDakka. If people want to see me sculpt in real-time they can observe my work on different platforms where I get the majority of my commission work. The reason I don't do a lot of advertising on Dakka is that it does not yield results. Mostly. But there are a few outliers. And even if I posted a full portfolio I don't think it would change that.

I'm also not a fan of the implication of being called an amateur simply for not showing the lion's share of my personal professional portfolio, which includes my real name, and more than just 3D miniatures on DakkaDakka a community rife with toxicity, wildly differing ideologies, and hostility out of fear of being doxxed, attacked or harassed(obviously not the entire community). Instead, I select a few images that show what I think customers like on a case-by-case basis because it's time-consuming to post my work here to take renders from my portfolio and place them in a viewable format. Why should the quantity of work matter at all? Why do I advertise on DakkaDakka ? I'm a miniature enthusiast and enjoy aspects of the community despite its hang-ups so I'm here anyway in my free time. So in short I reject your hypothesis, respectfully. And ask that you course-correct back on topic. About what a fair price, in general, is for sculpting. Again respectfully.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 10:58:46


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:


I've stated before that I'm already an established professional as in I make my living off of 3D modelling and that the lion's share of my portfolio isn't on Dakka for specific reasons relating to community feedback being wildly inconsistent from praise, to hostility and isn't germane to the poll and topic so I won't be going into detail as to why some of it under NDA's others are not being released until the IPs are finished, or are not related to miniatures. And nor do I think it's important when single images can show more than enough skill to demonstrate you can do what you need to do.

Whether or not something is printed is an interesting observation I've not considered being important, but it is something to consider. Personally, I don't understand what the point is of wasting money printing the object in a render. What you see in the render is what you get from the printer. What is relevant to the topic is what people think a fair price for commission sculpting is

.You state that rather than just giving people quotes "show them what you're buying" I do so by giving them a few images relevant to what they want or quickly sculpting a concept sketch. So I don't agree with your assessment. I will not be posting my full portfolio on DakkaDakka. If people want to see me sculpt in real-time they can observe my work on different platforms where I get the majority of my commission work. The reason I don't do a lot of advertising on Dakka is that it does not yield results. Mostly. But there are a few outliers, And even if I posted a full portfolio I don't think it would change that. I'm also not a fan of the implication of being an amateur simply for not showing the lion's share of my personal professional portfolio, which includes my real name on DakkaDakka a community rife with toxicity, wildly differing ideologies, and hostility out of fear of being doxxed, attacked or harassed(obviously not the entire community). So in short I reject your hypothesis, respectfully. And ask that you course-correct back on topic. About what a fair price, in general, is for sculpting. Again respectfully.





I honestly don't understand your point. You say you don't like Dakka because some people don't like your work yet at the same time you want Dakka users (and others on other sites) to also hire you for commission work. But you refuse to market yourself in any way. You are basically shooting yourself in the foot.

If I were hiring someone to commission for sculpting I'd expect to see their own website - Artstation is popular with 3D sculptors - I'd expect to see several models on there showing what they've done, with each model having multiple renders within showing off different angles and details on the sculpt. As you're working in 3D printing and providing a complete (I assume supported) file then showing off photos of printed models would be important as well. If you've worked within the industry I'd expect names of companies you've worked with and names of models you've sculpted for them.

Yes some of your current projects will be under NDA and such, but if you're that well established you'll have past works and even if not you'll have personal projects and more. A professional should have a large body of work to then pluck a 20 or so number to make a stunning portfolio to show off their work at best. That's what gets you someone coming to you and saying "ok I like your work, can you make XYZ for me" and then you can show quick sample sculpts and negotiate from there


But if you outright refuse to market yourself in any way you just won't get there save from those at the very bottom end of the pay scale who have little appreciation or budget for what you can deliver. Because all the serious people, they've hired someone showing a portfolio off. Someone who is marketing themselves, who doesn't care if someone on some message board doesn't like their sculpt, because many others do like their work.




Again I didn't say you've got to post your models on Dakka, I'm saying you should have a website portfolio; likely linked in your signature, so that someone can find your work; find what you do; see what you do and get inspired to hire you.




On the subject of "what you get in a render is what you get in a print" that's somewhat not always true. It's possible to render fine detail that simply will not print; or won't print on a consumer level printer. The style of your presupports can also make a huge impact on the quality of a print. Again if your skill is good then it won't be an issue; but again you want to prove it; to show it off. Again you're not doing yourself any favours hiding yourself away like you are.



This all directly feeds into what you can charge for your work. If you fail to market then you're not going to get the people with serious money approaching you to hire you for work. They are being attracted to other sculptors and paying them. You are being left with those who perhaps just don't have a serious budget or aren't all that serious about the part and such. Clearly if you're working in the industry at a high level this is stuff you should already be well aware of so it just baffles me that you're so restrained from marketing yourself.

If you had a major name in the industry that might be different, but your firm and user name basically don't have anything under them at this time in the market.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Overread wrote:
Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:


I've stated before that I'm already an established professional as in I make my living off of 3D modelling and that the lion's share of my portfolio isn't on Dakka for specific reasons relating to community feedback being wildly inconsistent from praise, to hostility and isn't germane to the poll and topic so I won't be going into detail as to why some of it under NDA's others are not being released until the IPs are finished, or are not related to miniatures. And nor do I think it's important when single images can show more than enough skill to demonstrate you can do what you need to do.

Whether or not something is printed is an interesting observation I've not considered being important, but it is something to consider. Personally, I don't understand what the point is of wasting money printing the object in a render. What you see in the render is what you get from the printer. What is relevant to the topic is what people think a fair price for commission sculpting is

.You state that rather than just giving people quotes "show them what you're buying" I do so by giving them a few images relevant to what they want or quickly sculpting a concept sketch. So I don't agree with your assessment. I will not be posting my full portfolio on DakkaDakka. If people want to see me sculpt in real-time they can observe my work on different platforms where I get the majority of my commission work. The reason I don't do a lot of advertising on Dakka is that it does not yield results. Mostly. But there are a few outliers, And even if I posted a full portfolio I don't think it would change that. I'm also not a fan of the implication of being an amateur simply for not showing the lion's share of my personal professional portfolio, which includes my real name on DakkaDakka a community rife with toxicity, wildly differing ideologies, and hostility out of fear of being doxxed, attacked or harassed(obviously not the entire community). So in short I reject your hypothesis, respectfully. And ask that you course-correct back on topic. About what a fair price, in general, is for sculpting. Again respectfully.





I honestly don't understand your point. You say you don't like Dakka because some people don't like your work yet at the same time you want Dakka users (and others on other sites) to also hire you for commission work. But you refuse to market yourself in any way. You are basically shooting yourself in the foot.

If I were hiring someone to commission for sculpting I'd expect to see their own website - Artstation is popular with 3D sculptors - I'd expect to see several models on there showing what they've done, with each model having multiple renders within showing off different angles and details on the sculpt. As you're working in 3D printing and providing a complete (I assume supported) file then showing off photos of printed models would be important as well. If you've worked within the industry I'd expect names of companies you've worked with and names of models you've sculpted for them.

Yes some of your current projects will be under NDA and such, but if you're that well established you'll have past works and even if not you'll have personal projects and more. A professional should have a large body of work to then pluck a 20 or so number to make a stunning portfolio to show off their work at best. That's what gets you someone coming to you and saying "ok I like your work, can you make XYZ for me" and then you can show quick sample sculpts and negotiate from there


But if you outright refuse to market yourself in any way you just won't get there save from those at the very bottom end of the pay scale who have little appreciation or budget for what you can deliver. Because all the serious people, they've hired someone showing a portfolio off. Someone who is marketing themselves, who doesn't care if someone on some message board doesn't like their sculpt, because many others do like their work.




Again I didn't say you've got to post your models on Dakka, I'm saying you should have a website portfolio; likely linked in your signature, so that someone can find your work; find what you do; see what you do and get inspired to hire you.




On the subject of "what you get in a render is what you get in a print" that's somewhat not always true. It's possible to render fine detail that simply will not print; or won't print on a consumer level printer. The style of your presupports can also make a huge impact on the quality of a print. Again if your skill is good then it won't be an issue; but again you want to prove it; to show it off. Again you're not doing yourself any favours hiding yourself away like you are.



This all directly feeds into what you can charge for your work. If you fail to market then you're not going to get the people with serious money approaching you to hire you for work. They are being attracted to other sculptors and paying them. You are being left with those who perhaps just don't have a serious budget or aren't all that serious about the part and such. Clearly if you're working in the industry at a high level this is stuff you should already be well aware of so it just baffles me that you're so restrained from marketing yourself.

If you had a major name in the industry that might be different, but your firm and user name basically don't have anything under them at this time in the market.


Because my portfolio isn't exclusive to Bayonet & Ricochet miniatures a new company and is entirely separate from my professional portfolio. You don't have to understand it it's how I choose to do business. I don't advertise much on Dakka Dakka because of its toxicity. "You say you don't like Dakka because some people don't like your work yet at the same time you want Dakka users But you refuse to market yourself in any way." I stated that it's wildly inconsistent and on occasion hostile and yes that actually matters as people might see the wildly inconsistent feedback on the negative side and jump on. There are just as many positive reviews as negative but people tend to gravitate towards negative things. Again nothing to do with the above topic. And I do market myself and my portfolio just not on DakkaDakka your attitude is a perfect example as to one of the many reasons why I don't spend a lot of time advertising on DakkaDakka. I don't expect large clients here, the community can be hostile and toxic, and I'm only here in my free time the rest of the time I'm working on established projects.

From my perspective shooting myself in the foot would be to exclusively market on DakkaDakka. Dakka is just something I do in my free time and does not mean that I dislike the community because of a few outliers. That's an unfair assessment.

Bayonet & Ricochet is a company. The lion's share of my work isn't with Bayonet & Ricochet and is not necessarily related to miniatures so I post what I can when I have time. I don't expect a large turnaround from Dakka Dakka thus limited advertising. Again I don't see how that's relevant at all. I show images on a case-by-case basis generally I feel the quality of the work is more important than quanity. Again why does it matter at all? I concede the point about printing sure, that's not a bad point but I also feel that's mostly up to the printer a person uses, and how they dial in their settings. Artisan Guild for example uses renders so I'm mostly skeptical but your point here could have merit I'll take it to heart.

But as for the community as a whole, I both love and hate DakkaDakka. It has elements I really enjoy and people, and it has people that I feel just go looking for conflicts.









This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/15 11:20:57


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You're saying that I'm being toxic, yet all I'm saying is that a professional looking to get commission work needs to market themselves on the platform that they want work from




You are saying that I'm being toxic and insulting because of who you are; yet you refuse to tell me who you are.

You could be the guy who has designed most of the Tyranids for GW over the last 20 years; who has worked for multiple firms who I own actual models from.

How am I, or any other Dakka user, or any other person who searches "Bayonet and Ricochet" to know that?


EDIT - also because I forgot to mention earlier. A render and a print are very different things. A 3d designer with a background in, say, digital games might design a great looking render. That has holes, resin traps, missing rendering gaps, detail in odd places, clipping details, inaccessible areas and more. Ergo a render can look great, but it functionally might print disastrously or require repairing before it can be printed reliably from. Again its a good reason why you also show finished prints; showing that you're not just capable of making a render, but one that actually prints faithfully and without issues. It also then reinforces that you've a skill in making such things and that purchasers won't get a surprise of odd resin traps and the like


Don't forget Atisian guild and the like do mostly show renders; but they have big populations showing prints. Customers on Facebook and Discord that are showing off their prints all the time for them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 11:22:28


A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Overread wrote:
You're saying that I'm being toxic, yet all I'm saying is that a professional looking to get commission work needs to market themselves on the platform that they want work from




You are saying that I'm being toxic and insulting because of who you are; yet you refuse to tell me who you are.

You could be the guy who has designed most of the Tyranids for GW over the last 20 years; who has worked for multiple firms who I own actual models from.

How am I, or any other Dakka user, or any other person who searches "Bayonet and Ricochet" to know that?


EDIT - also because I forgot to mention earlier. A render and a print are very different things. A 3d designer with a background in, say, digital games might design a great looking render. That has holes, resin traps, missing rendering gaps, detail in odd places, clipping details, inaccessible areas and more. Ergo a render can look great, but it functionally might print disastrously or require repairing before it can be printed reliably from. Again its a good reason why you also show finished prints; showing that you're not just capable of making a render, but one that actually prints faithfully and without issues. It also then reinforces that you've a skill in making such things and that purchasers won't get a surprise of odd resin traps and the like


Have you considered that maybe I just disagree with your assessments and you're reading too far into it? "So what you're saying is" What I'm saying is exactly what I put I didn't say anything else.

"EDIT - also because I forgot to mention earlier. A render and a print are very different things. A 3d designer with a background in, say, digital games might design a great looking render. That has holes, resin traps, missing rendering gaps, detail in odd places, clipping details, inaccessible areas and more. Ergo a render can look great, but it functionally might print disastrously or require repairing before it can be printed reliably from. Again its a good reason why you also show finished prints; showing that you're not just capable of making a render, but one that actually prints faithfully and without issues. It also then reinforces that you've a skill in making such things and that purchasers won't get a surprise of odd resin traps and the like " This is a fair point thank you for the insight.

Edit- I should add in response that all of my miniatures are actually set up for printing and come in pieces for the most part that require assembly so they can be printed easily. However, I never thought it was important to show printed works, clearly, I made an error. I wish I had that insight before all three of my printers failed due to mechanical error. I've rencelt ordered the Mega 8k only to realize the mini 8k is launching soon. So I'm currently without a printer. However, none of this is relevant to the poll or topic. My apologies for coming off as curt I don't want anyone to feel like they're being attacked that's not my intention.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 11:38:41


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You are asking what people are willing to pay based upon your frustrations on having people ghost you when you've presented to them your estimated costs to produce something.

You are clearly frustrated with the lack of negotiations ending in solid work for you where most customers are leaving you because you're charging too much for them to pay and thus you're trying to see if you've miss-understood the impression of the market value for what you're presenting - at least to a casual market on Dakka and other forums.


What I'm saying is that you're not marketing yourself enough to actually get customers who have the serious money in the first place. Again right now all I can see of what you - as Bayonete and Ricochet - have done is one hammer, part of a 6 legged model and a mounted lancer and a few heads. Scattered all over the place that I have to google for to find. You don't have a portfolio website that makes it easy; you don't list any of your partners or models that you've worked on in the past.


Again right now your marketing is only going to secure low paying/lowball/chancer contracts. You aren't marketing yourself to secure those within the community of casual fans who do have serious money to spend on serious commissions and if you stick to your current stance that will remain a continual problem for you.

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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






You should be able to charge a lot, but you have to instill the faith of quality in the prospective buyer. If you present like an ameteur, people will expect to pay amateur prices. If you present like a pro, people will be more willing to pay pro prices.

I also wouldn't really base price on hourly rate either. Some people are just faster than others. An hourly rate punishes a fast artist and rewards a slow one. A good freelance pro artist is the one that produces quality work at a flat rate, but learns how to speed up their process to achieve quality quickly, and therefore be able to take on more work and make more money

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Hourly rates make sense with a quote for how many hours. You can have a difficult customer who wants course corrects, changes or new concepts thrown in throughout the process. You can then say that will take 3 more hours so cost you 3x. Giving a figure for the whole job makes that style of add on difficult to bargain around and harder for the customer to understand.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Overread wrote:
You are asking what people are willing to pay based upon your frustrations on having people ghost you when you've presented to them your estimated costs to produce something.

You are clearly frustrated with the lack of negotiations ending in solid work for you where most customers are leaving you because you're charging too much for them to pay and thus you're trying to see if you've miss-understood the impression of the market value for what you're presenting - at least to a casual market on Dakka and other forums.


What I'm saying is that you're not marketing yourself enough to actually get customers who have the serious money in the first place. Again right now all I can see of what you - as Bayonete and Ricochet - have done is one hammer, part of a 6 legged model and a mounted lancer and a few heads. Scattered all over the place that I have to google for to find. You don't have a portfolio website that makes it easy; you don't list any of your partners or models that you've worked on in the past.


Again right now your marketing is only going to secure low paying/lowball/chancer contracts. You aren't marketing yourself to secure those within the community of casual fans who do have serious money to spend on serious commissions and if you stick to your current stance that will remain a continual problem for you.


Yes but the excessive negative response is only limited to Dakka Dakka. Everywhere else has been a completely different story. Twitch for example very positive feedback, thousands of positive interactions. A lot of miniatures are going to be sent out to some of the painters on twitch in the new year. DakkaDakka mostly negative feedback. Mini Wargaming's Dave - Positive Feedback and a shout-out on Twitter. Twitter Positive feedback tho limited. Instagram positive feedback And that's only the miniature stuff I've shown here nothing to do with my professional portfolio and includes other types of art including 3D modelling, and has more to do with generalized 3D modelling than miniatures.

DakkaDakka seems to be a unique outlier. And it's the main reason I limit my interaction on here. I don't really believe that the whales you're talking about exist here. The community is so wildly different in what they want, and what qualifies as approved vetting it just comes off as off-putting. The Few customers that reach out mostly respond with "I like your stuff Let me see if I can get it cheaper then get back to you" So quality appears not to matter at all but just what they can get cheaply, and that's all very subjective. I've had one person complain about armour, then I've had a school history teacher praising it for realism. So I don't think the whales you're talking about exist. In fact, I've seen an entire discussion about undervaluing extremely good quality work on Patreon because a lesser competitor offers more for less. Some scoffing at paying what I consider to be heavily undervalued if not ludicrously undervalued.







This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 12:00:35


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'm not just talking about Dakka though. As I said I'd expect someone wanting people to hire them to have a website showing their work - I don't really find one under your current brand name.


It's not just limited to Dakka, its any place that you want people to hire you that I'm speaking about.








Right now if I wanted to hire someone to sculpt for me I wouldn't expect to find them on Dakka. I'd start in Discord in the discords that I'm a member of that are linked to 3D printing and even those that are based off patreons that I get 3D prints from.

Sure most of them would likely be busy, but some might give me names of sculptors they've hired in the past or currently hire who work for them.

Then I'd expect to head to Art Station, Thingiverse, Cults, My Mini Factory and scout around them. I'd look for creators who's portfolios I like and who are advertising themselves for work (which is honestly more Art Station than the others, but the others, but the others are showing me creators and what they produce).


Again look at the core of what I'm saying - marketing. Making people casually aware of what you do - making it EASY to find that information and upfront about it. Right now you're playing cagey. You are playing hard to get, at least for the consumer market that you seem keen to want to market too.


You are, of course, free to do that. I can't force you to change your attitude; however I'm hoping to perhaps convince you that you need to put aside the fact that someone dislikes your work and focus on marketing yourself if you want work.
People complain about Hero's Infinite; about AVG, Mini Monster Mayhem; etc.... They get complaints, they get feedback positive and negative. They use the negative to improve their work; they react to the positive and build off it and continue to market, show, distribute and sell their work.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Overread wrote:
I'm not just talking about Dakka though. As I said I'd expect someone wanting people to hire them to have a website showing their work - I don't really find one under your current brand name.


It's not just limited to Dakka, its any place that you want people to hire you that I'm speaking about.








Right now if I wanted to hire someone to sculpt for me I wouldn't expect to find them on Dakka. I'd start in Discord in the discords that I'm a member of that are linked to 3D printing and even those that are based off patreons that I get 3D prints from.

Sure most of them would likely be busy, but some might give me names of sculptors they've hired in the past or currently hire who work for them.

Then I'd expect to head to Art Station, Thingiverse, Cults, My Mini Factory and scout around them. I'd look for creators who's portfolios I like and who are advertising themselves for work (which is honestly more Art Station than the others, but the others, but the others are showing me creators and what they produce).


Again look at the core of what I'm saying - marketing. Making people casually aware of what you do - making it EASY to find that information and upfront about it. Right now you're playing cagey. You are playing hard to get, at least for the consumer market that you seem keen to want to market too.


You are, of course, free to do that. I can't force you to change your attitude; however, I'm hoping to perhaps convince you that you need to put aside the fact that someone dislikes your work and focus on marketing yourself if you want work.
People complain about Hero's Infinite; about AVG, Mini Monster Mayhem; etc.... They get complaints, they get feedback positive and negative. They use the negative to improve their work; they react to the positive and build off it and continue to market, show, distribute and sell their work.


Edit - "I'm not just talking about Dakka though. As I said I'd expect someone wanting people to hire them to have a website showing their work - I don't really find one under your current brand name." Bayonet & Ricochet is a Wargame Manufacturing Company. An entirely New Company that is waiting for the Kickstarter to launch before we show much of anything. (I'm positive you understand what media blackout is like Star Wars the empire strikes back). I am a sculptor/3D modeller and artist you won't find a portfolio under Bayonet & Ricochet Miniatures. There are specific reasons we don't show the majority of our work. Which has a lot to do with advertising/video production sound editing, professional product photographers, delays in shipping expectations for printers high-resolution printers we didn't expect and a borken printer we had to send back(currently holding everything back), the current pandemic further complicating the release of our products. One such thing is we had trouble hiring an illustrator for game art who would not negotiate contracts, given the vast majority of artists are trained to expect extensive royalties in collages, and ensure they own copyrights. Which wasn't tenable for us at the time, further delaying our product.

Well, I'm not playing at all at anything that's your assessment it does not reflect reality. What I am saying is that I don't put stock in DakkaDakka to provide the income I'm making elsewhere currently. As for a website displaying the lion's share of my work, will never touch DakkaDakka. I've stated my reasons as to why. And I don't intend to further explain myself. You don't have to understand it, but for me it's a cost and risk assessment that I generally don't have time for. Which I feel is off-topic entirely. The OP being about what others think a fair hourly rate for miniature sculpting is.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 13:00:40


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Texas

I think the biggest factor in the expectation decline in rates is who is requesting quotes? It used to be only serious manufacturers were commissioning sculpts for production, so the money was there and not as many sculptors were in the market.

Flash forward to today when you have two issues:

1. More sculptors in the market - Not only does this breed competition, but some of these sculptors really only do this as a hobby in their spare time, so their profit margin and expectation is totally different than another that this is their main job.
2. Sculpting Requests are no longer from largely funded sources - this is the most important factor, I feel, as Overread points out. You have print hobbyists that just want something special done for a personal/pet project. They do not have the funds for traditional sculpting costs and look for bargains. Unfortunately, it feels this caliber of request is now the greatest percentage of the requests sculptors receive now. And, why Dakka is not your best promotion arena - only part-time print hobbyists looking for a deal, or unrealistic expectations on pricing.

I spent many years as a professional illustrator and airbrush artist well before the movement to computers. Sure, I made the move, but it greatly increased those that could churn out art at a faster and cheaper rate. Eventually, it boiled down to anyone saying, "What is my time worth and what are people willing to pay for it?" I have turned down many jobs, or my price was too high (on purpose) simply because at the time my time was more valuable to me.

I truly wish you luck in pursuing this area, as we do need talented sculptors, but it is not the first time in history technology has radically changed the environment.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 13:59:17


My Novella Collection is available on Amazon - Action/Fantasy/Sci-Fi - https://www.amazon.com/Three-Roads-Dreamt-Michael-Leonard/dp/1505716993/

 
   
Made in ua
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 MDSW wrote:
I think the biggest factor in the expectation decline in rates is who is requesting quotes? It used to be only serious manufacturers were commissioning sculpts for production, so the money was there and not as many sculptors were in the market.

Flash forward to today when you have two issues:

1. More sculptors in the market - Not only does this breed competition, but some of these sculptors really only do this as a hobby in their spare time, so their profit margin and expectation is totally different than another that this is their main job.
2. Sculpting Requests are no longer from largely funded sources - this is the most important factor, I feel, as Overread points out. You have print hobbyists that just want something special done for a personal/pet project. They do not have the funds for traditional sculpting costs and look for bargains. Unfortunately, it feels this caliber of request is now the greatest percentage of the requests sculptors receive now. And, why Dakka is not your best promotion arena - only part-time print hobbyists looking for a deal, or unrealistic expectations on pricing.

I spent many years as a professional illustrator and airbrush artist well before the movement to computers. Sure, I made the move, but it greatly increased those that could churn out art at a faster and cheaper rate. Eventually, it boiled down to anyone saying, "What is my time worth and what are people willing to pay for it?" I have turned down many jobs, or my price was too high (on purpose) simply because at the time my time was more valuable to me.

I truly wish you luck in pursuing this area, as we do need talented sculptors, but it is not the first time in history technology has radically changed the environment.


A very reasoned response. I always like reading your responses

What I find kind of disturbing is that people wishing to resell your designs and launch entire product lines are starting to scoff at paying for anything more expensive than 50$ They want entire packages, copyrights, right to resell 50 miniatures for impossibly low prices. This seems to be exclusively limited to the Miniatures market. And not reflected in 3D modelling. It can't be that they lack money given you need a ludicrous amount of money to get into producing miniatures in the first place. It's just baffling. What's interesting is that the same people have said things like "Finally a sculptor that can do what I need, you have any idea how hard it is to find someone that understands heroic scale" Then ask for 50 plus minis for less than minimum wage. Or roughly one dollar a miniature. They then turn around and want to sell the physical copy or even digital copy of the miniature for insane markups. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars in sale for next to nothing, artist never to get credit, even exposure or anything else. Here be grateful that I gave you a shilling. It is rare but it happens. One of the reasons I stopped using Fiverr actually.

To stay on the topic however what I consider fair pricing should be based on what the artist feels they need to survive as an artist, pay for education, equipment and software. If people can't respect the bare minimum operation cost of an artist why bother reaching out in the first place? It's odd to me that miniatures specifically compared to video game art etc.. is somehow less valuable or less deserving of work.

Do people really think it's free work? Or that exposure feeds people. I've played in a few bands and I've done "exposure gigs" many times, including ones that the bar expects you to pay to play. And it's never been alright or fair.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 16:29:44


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Insectum7 wrote:

I also wouldn't really base price on hourly rate either. Some people are just faster than others. An hourly rate punishes a fast artist and rewards a slow one. A good freelance pro artist is the one that produces quality work at a flat rate, but learns how to speed up their process to achieve quality quickly, and therefore be able to take on more work and make more money

None of the freelancers I've worked with so far used an hourly rate. They quote for the job.

Which isn't saying that using an hourly rate is wrong (and they most likely use an estimate based on an hourly rate to arrive at the quote figure anyway)... but for me personally, I'm going to use the artist who quotes a set figure, because it's easier to budget for.


Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
[Bayonet & Ricochet is a Wargame Manufacturing Company. An entirely New Company that is waiting for the Kickstarter to launch before we show much of anything. (I'm positive you understand what media blackout is like Star Wars the empire strikes back). I am a sculptor/3D modeller and artist you won't find a portfolio under Bayonet & Ricochet Miniatures. There are specific reasons we don't show the majority of our work. Which has a lot to do with advertising/video production sound editing, professional product photographers, delays in shipping expectations for printers high-resolution printers we didn't expect and a borken printer we had to send back(currently holding everything back), the current pandemic further complicating the release of our products. One such thing is we had trouble hiring an illustrator for game art who would not negotiate contracts, given the vast majority of artists are trained to expect extensive royalties in collages, and ensure they own copyrights. Which wasn't tenable for us at the time, further delaying our product.

Well, I'm not playing at all at anything that's your assessment it does not reflect reality. What I am saying is that I don't put stock in DakkaDakka to provide the income I'm making elsewhere currently. As for a website displaying the lion's share of my work, will never touch DakkaDakka. I've stated my reasons as to why. And I don't intend to further explain myself. You don't have to understand it, but for me it's a cost and risk assessment that I generally don't have time for. Which I feel is off-topic entirely. The OP being about what others think a fair hourly rate for miniature sculpting is.

You and Overread seem to be talking past each other. They're saying 'You need to show your portfolio if you expect people to hire you' and you're responding with 'Dakka bad'.

Forget about Dakka (aside from the obvious point that you're asking for feedback here, which makes this whole discussion a bit odd, really)... If you want freelance work, you need to show people what you can do. 'I have a vast portfolio, but I can't show you because reasons' is not going to get you work. You need to show what you can do. If most of your portfolio is bound up in NDAs or has other reasons that it can't be shown, then you need to put together some other models that you can share. People will hire you if they see work that they like the look of. And, as Overread tried to explain, that doesn't mean you have to post everything on Dakka. I've found most of my freelancers through Artstation, Twitter, or trawling the internet for artists' personal websites, and tend to focus on those artists with a good range of (good) work on display.

Although it's also worth keeping in mind that regardless of how good you are and how well you present yourself, people will ghost you. if you don't have people thinking you're too expensive, you're probably not charging enough. A lot of your queries are going to come from hobbyists who had an idea for a model and have no idea how much it should realistically charge. It's not so much about undervaluing the work as just people not having a yardstick to begin with...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 23:29:25


 
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
your attitude is a perfect example as to one of the many reasons why I don't spend a lot of time advertising on DakkaDakka.


I'm sure you aren't gonna like what I have to say here, but Imma say it.

This, right here? As a small bespoke business? That's radioactive PR, dude, don't do it.
While I've disagreed with Overread in the past, but his attitude is far from a negative one. He regularly is one of the more positive posters here. You aren't gonna win any support by tarring us all with the "toxic" brush, there are so many different people here, and we aren't a hivemind.
I don't really care for the answer, but have you ever spoken like that to someone for ghosting you? Have you ever spoken like that to someone for deciding not to hire you? Have you ever spoken like that to a client, or a potential client?

Freelance work is high-risk. It's high risk for you, but also for your client. They want quality goods, they want them reasonably quickly, and they want to experience as little stress and drama as possible in the time between making their order, and having the product in hand. I've seen your posts here before, I've seen you go into other threads to shittalk other users, and I've seen you have several locked threads. This is not the kind of behavior that fills clients with confidence.

For a time, I ran my own business in Korea. Now, there are some real big differences regarding what you're selling and what I sold, and that you're trying to make this into a full-time thing, whereas mine was more of a side hustle, but at the core of it, what I did and what you're trying to do have some CORE similarities.

As a freelancer, your job really isn't sculpting. Your job is unpaid hustling to get customers. Your job is networking. Your job is schmoozing potential clients, schmoozing past clients, and making sure people know that you're selling, that you're selling high-quality stuff, and that you're selling it at a fair and competative price. The actual work, work bit? Where you're sculpting? Sure, that might be your passion, and that's where you have to kind of be excellent, and critically where you get paid, but where you bust your ass most is the people work stuff. You need patience, you need to be polite, you need to kiss a lot of ass and you need to be prepared to work this bit with few results, for few returns. It can be monstrously frustrating and very tiresome, but that's what it is to work on a job-by-job basis. There is no 9-5. If you're awake, you gotta be ready to seize every opportunity that comes up. It's hard. Like, really hard. I understand that. It was one of the various reasons I decided to get out of it and get something more stable.
You want an answer to the titular question? About whatever everyone else is charging. Do you have companies you aspire to be like? Do you have rivals? Look at their prices, think about what you're comfortable with, think about what your limits would be. Only you decide this, but it's the making of your business.

You talk about having a big portfolio that you can't show. This is the same as not having it at all.

You should have enough show-off pieces to wow potential customers.
Being illusive about how how successful you actually are, how much work you've gotten in the past, the quality of your stuff? It's not a confidence-builder for clients.

At this stage, your brand is you, and how you are perceived to operate - your prices, your professionalism, the speed you can get a job done, your style - not your actual minis, not at least until you get substantially more well-known, to the point where your work is in the public eye enough to stand for itself.
Unfortunately in a job like this, you gotta put your money where your mouth is before your mouth has eaten, and while your pockets are still empty.

In a creative market like this one, seeing is everything. So far, all we've seen from you is a handful of renders - do you have prints, too? Are there painted versions? Examples of your sculpts being used in a game scenario? Do you have influencers you interact with who have worked with your sculpts, and can showcase what they look like pro-painted? Who can attest to the quality, and how easy you are to work with?

I'm gonna be very real here, too. That rifle render in your sig? Make the image smaller. You've distorted it with the size it's at now, and it sits under every post you make, kinda grainy and pixellated, and it undermines the professionalism you assert you have. If you re-size it, it'll be fine, but right now it looks amateurish.

What does your social media look like? You have Twitter? Facebook? Reddit? Youtube? Insta? Patreon? Tumblr? Tiktok? You should at least be on all of those platforms, and trying to show anything at least once a week to keep interaction algorithms hot, even if it's just a seconds long overview. Even if it's something you've shown before.
Showing up here once in a while and grandstanding about how much you dislike us all isn't going to do it, buddy.

I may have worded some of this harshly, and I know I've definitely had negative interactions with you in the past. I'm sorry if it comes off as rude, but I really do believe that these are some hard home truths about freelancing, and I hope you can benefit from them.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I wouldn't hire you based on your attitude.

Overread put a lot of effort in discussing and unpacking a lot of things for you.
Your reaction was utter contempt

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 04:06:01


If you're upset when someone holds you to your own self stated standards it might just be that they are indeed selective double standards. 
   
Made in au
Indescriminate Explicator





Newcastle NSW

I don't know how much your charging for commissions but unless they're the cheapest around I wouldn't hire you based on
1.) Your lack of displayed work (forget NDA's and copyright do some original work as samples and make a portfolio).
2.) Your attitude to input. If your going to act like that to someone who's trying to help you how are you going to react to a customer wanting something changed

The Four Winds Tribe has returned to claim the Underhive for House Escher


Deathwatch Kill Team: W9 D0 L2
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 posermcbogus wrote:

What does your social media look like? You have Twitter? Facebook? Reddit? Youtube? Insta? Patreon? Tumblr? Tiktok? You should at least be on all of those platforms, and trying to show anything at least once a week to keep interaction algorithms hot, even if it's just a seconds long overview. Even if it's something you've shown before.


One thing I will pick out with social media is that its key not to just have social media accounts, but to only keep them if you use them.
A good few people start something like a Facebook or a Twitter or such and they post to it for a bit, then other things come in and they stop. Perhaps another social media outlet worked better, perhaps work and contacts in the real world take off and the social media isn't needed/working for them; perhaps they get bored or forget about it. Whatever the reason is they abandon it. For the modern world where people will look at your website; will follow links to your social media and can google you and will find your social media - its terrible to have dead social media.

That Facebook you don't post too and which is linked to an email that you don't check for messages - that's where someone is messaging you as a contact point for work; that dead Twitter and dead Facebook - that's suggesting your firm isn't working right now (esp if your website hasn't changed in a long while etc...).

Now social media, like all marketing, can take a long time to actually start working. It's a continual effort to maintain it and its a steady trickle effect rather than a floodgate. So even if it doens't seem to work at first you do have to generally maintain and keep it up to date for the medium to long term to actually yield a reward. However if you find yourself not using a social media outlet - CLOSE IT. You don't have to axe the account (indeed keeping it around is a good thing, it means you've got the name of your brand on that service and you can always use it again in the future); however you do want a clear "this is now closed, don't contact me here, go here-here-here instead" With links to your other contact/media points. Ergo be clear that you're not using it, but at the same time redirect them to where you are active.


A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in ua
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 posermcbogus wrote:
Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
your attitude is a perfect example as to one of the many reasons why I don't spend a lot of time advertising on DakkaDakka.


I'm sure you aren't gonna like what I have to say here, but Imma say it.

This, right here? As a small bespoke business? That's radioactive PR, dude, don't do it.
While I've disagreed with Overread in the past, but his attitude is far from a negative one. He regularly is one of the more positive posters here. You aren't gonna win any support by tarring us all with the "toxic" brush, there are so many different people here, and we aren't a hivemind.
I don't really care for the answer, but have you ever spoken like that to someone for ghosting you? Have you ever spoken like that to someone for deciding not to hire you? Have you ever spoken like that to a client, or a potential client?

Freelance work is high-risk. It's high risk for you, but also for your client. They want quality goods, they want them reasonably quickly, and they want to experience as little stress and drama as possible in the time between making their order, and having the product in hand. I've seen your posts here before, I've seen you go into other threads to shittalk other users, and I've seen you have several locked threads. This is not the kind of behavior that fills clients with confidence.

For a time, I ran my own business in Korea. Now, there are some real big differences regarding what you're selling and what I sold, and that you're trying to make this into a full-time thing, whereas mine was more of a side hustle, but at the core of it, what I did and what you're trying to do have some CORE similarities.

As a freelancer, your job really isn't sculpting. Your job is unpaid hustling to get customers. Your job is networking. Your job is schmoozing potential clients, schmoozing past clients, and making sure people know that you're selling, that you're selling high-quality stuff, and that you're selling it at a fair and competative price. The actual work, work bit? Where you're sculpting? Sure, that might be your passion, and that's where you have to kind of be excellent, and critically where you get paid, but where you bust your ass most is the people work stuff. You need patience, you need to be polite, you need to kiss a lot of ass and you need to be prepared to work this bit with few results, for few returns. It can be monstrously frustrating and very tiresome, but that's what it is to work on a job-by-job basis. There is no 9-5. If you're awake, you gotta be ready to seize every opportunity that comes up. It's hard. Like, really hard. I understand that. It was one of the various reasons I decided to get out of it and get something more stable.
You want an answer to the titular question? About whatever everyone else is charging. Do you have companies you aspire to be like? Do you have rivals? Look at their prices, think about what you're comfortable with, think about what your limits would be. Only you decide this, but it's the making of your business.

You talk about having a big portfolio that you can't show. This is the same as not having it at all.

You should have enough show-off pieces to wow potential customers.
Being illusive about how how successful you actually are, how much work you've gotten in the past, the quality of your stuff? It's not a confidence-builder for clients.

At this stage, your brand is you, and how you are perceived to operate - your prices, your professionalism, the speed you can get a job done, your style - not your actual minis, not at least until you get substantially more well-known, to the point where your work is in the public eye enough to stand for itself.
Unfortunately in a job like this, you gotta put your money where your mouth is before your mouth has eaten, and while your pockets are still empty.

In a creative market like this one, seeing is everything. So far, all we've seen from you is a handful of renders - do you have prints, too? Are there painted versions? Examples of your sculpts being used in a game scenario? Do you have influencers you interact with who have worked with your sculpts, and can showcase what they look like pro-painted? Who can attest to the quality, and how easy you are to work with?

I'm gonna be very real here, too. That rifle render in your sig? Make the image smaller. You've distorted it with the size it's at now, and it sits under every post you make, kinda grainy and pixellated, and it undermines the professionalism you assert you have. If you re-size it, it'll be fine, but right now it looks amateurish.

What does your social media look like? You have Twitter? Facebook? Reddit? Youtube? Insta? Patreon? Tumblr? Tiktok? You should at least be on all of those platforms, and trying to show anything at least once a week to keep interaction algorithms hot, even if it's just a seconds long overview. Even if it's something you've shown before.
Showing up here once in a while and grandstanding about how much you dislike us all isn't going to do it, buddy.

I may have worded some of this harshly, and I know I've definitely had negative interactions with you in the past. I'm sorry if it comes off as rude, but I really do believe that these are some hard home truths about freelancing, and I hope you can benefit from them.


Considering the guy is outright being rude from the start. And his feedback wasn't constructive extremely forced and wasn't asked for, it's telling people how to do their job. I don't overly care that much. It wasn't germane to the post in any capacity and was off-topic. Period.

The Rifle image is distorted due to the limitations of Dakka's Banners it isn't a Vector Image it can't shrink easily.. and I would need to update it. It's not distorted elsewhere. And what the feth does that even matter?

I have not had the time Spending the extra time to do so takes away from my job where I get paid. As well as the thousands of hours I spend not getting paid to develop two IPs.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and I don't care if your friend is upset because I disagree with his negative take and off-topic post. I've also stated that I generally don't look for jobs on Dakka or expect them and one of the reasons is the attitude of the community.

Everything else in your post is mentioned in the above if you cared to read past "I disagree" I don't care if you wouldn't hire me.. Other people with money do.

Grow up. I'm allowed to respond to a piss poor attitude in kind. And I damn well responded to him politely. His post wasn't constructive it was, irrelevant and off-topic. I explained my position and he continued to push his irrelevant point of view. And you don't find him PUSHING and PUSHING to be unpleasent? No means no is some pretty basic stuff bud.

MDW can respond with constructive feedback, actually listens and responds accordingly, but you and your friend can't?

You're basically going to someones else workplace and telling them how to do their job. It's not well received.

I usually only respond negatively to people that are acting badly. I If You've had bad interactions with me in the past. So it doesn't say a lot about you.

Most of the community that reacts badly here is often due to different ideological backgrounds, differences in moral behaviour. For example. Disagreement isn't being rude, and it isn't taboo. Especially when I was respectful to an obvious attack. How else should I correct the guy's assumptions that we're off-topic? "Yes, sir please sir can I have some more, I'm sorry sir I don't mean to speak out of turn sir.. but but could it be that maybe sir you're not right sir"? This community is outright toxic and at times hostile and excessively filled with a strong ideological leaning. I will not post a portfolio with my real name on it out of fear of being doxxed, and only give sample images that are relevant to a customer when they talk to me directly, or sculpt a concept sketch for them if it's a legitimate interest. But you would know that if you actually read what I posted.

And commission work is a SIDE gig. But you would know that if you read past "I disagree" rather than getting butthurt and "he said the thing I don't like, get him!"

I'm not a pushover and I will not prostrate myself to bad actors in the community. MDW perfectly reasoned responses and not being a jerk.. You and Overread on the other hand not so much.

"As a freelancer, your job really isn't sculpting. Your job is unpaid hustling to get customers. Your job is networking. Your job is schmoozing potential clients, schmoozing past clients, and making sure people know that you're selling" No it isn't that's generally someone you avoid hiring because they're disingenuous, and often a jackass. Schmoozing? No you present your business card you shake their hand look them in the eye.

"the speed you can get a job done, your style - not your actual minis, not at least until you get substantially more well-known, to the point where your work is in the public eye enough to stand for itself.
Unfortunately in a job like this, you gotta put your money where your mouth is before your mouth has eaten, and while your pockets are still empty. " This isn't relevant to the topic and isn't accurate. I've already explained that my portfolio isn't on Dakka. That I'm already an established professional and getting paid. I also eat well thank you. Yesterday I made homemade pizza with a light marina sauce, homegrown Thai basil, a blend of spices, and imported flour. I made a second pizza with thick-cut butcher's bacon, and alfredo sauce with roasted chicken.

And I just got a message from someone asking for some work.

Don't bother responding.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rolsheen wrote:
I don't know how much you're charging for commissions but unless they're the cheapest around I wouldn't hire you based on
1.) Your lack of displayed work (forget NDA's and copyright do some original work as samples and make a portfolio).
2.) Your attitude to input. If your going to act like that to someone who's trying to help you how are you going to react to a customer wanting something changed


There are plenty of people that do hire me. . Sure Dakka isn't a hotbed of activity. Am I suppose to prostrate myself to unwelcome and unconstructive feedback that isn't on the topic? that wasn't asked for?

And telling people how they should do their job isn't rude? Overhead's post wasn't constructive and was off topic I responded to his rude post politely, and respectfully.

"You're rude I wouldn't hire you" what are you trying to prove here exactly? You're virtue signalling because I disagreed with someone being unpleasant and not constructive.

Let's get one thing clear. I'm not going to prostrate myself to someone intentionally being rude, who can't listen to a reasoned response and takes it as a bad attitude.

There isn't a way to word No you're incorrect in a positive way in the modern era. It's something I've noticed about certain people that has changed in the past 20 years that disagreeing with someone has become taboo. Well, it isn't rude to make a reasoned counterpoint as to why unconstructive or unwanted feedback isn't correct.

There are many reasons why Overheads' opinions are irrelevant, and unconstructive. I laid them out respectfully as I could, and as succinctly as possible.

However it is very rude to go into a post target someone directly and bring stuff up that's not germane to the topic, or Imply that they're an amateur because they don't do exactly what you want to them to or agree with them.

"Oh I'm very sorry sir but I disagree with your points here but they're very valid of course, sorry sir please so sorry, oh lord how shall I say, no to this kind and gentle man" come on..

"So you're Saying" --- Is how the guy talks and how I responded in kind.. Your attitude isn't much better.

The smugness of "I wouldn't hire you" Grow up. I don't need your business and wouldn't work for you.



This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 20:28:29


 
   
Made in us
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As a general rule, I usually only hire people I either already know I can work with or people who wows me with stuff they've already done (and then I ask around a bit for people who's already worked with them before).

Price is more up and down, but I'd expect them to price themselves high enough for it to be worth the effort.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 11:43:23


 
   
Made in ua
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 insaniak wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

I also wouldn't really base price on hourly rate either. Some people are just faster than others. An hourly rate punishes a fast artist and rewards a slow one. A good freelance pro artist is the one that produces quality work at a flat rate, but learns how to speed up their process to achieve quality quickly, and therefore be able to take on more work and make more money

None of the freelancers I've worked with so far used an hourly rate. They quote for the job.

Which isn't saying that using an hourly rate is wrong (and they most likely use an estimate based on an hourly rate to arrive at the quote figure anyway)... but for me personally, I'm going to use the artist who quotes a set figure, because it's easier to budget for.


Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
[Bayonet & Ricochet is a Wargame Manufacturing Company. An entirely New Company that is waiting for the Kickstarter to launch before we show much of anything. (I'm positive you understand what media blackout is like Star Wars the empire strikes back). I am a sculptor/3D modeller and artist you won't find a portfolio under Bayonet & Ricochet Miniatures. There are specific reasons we don't show the majority of our work. Which has a lot to do with advertising/video production sound editing, professional product photographers, delays in shipping expectations for printers high-resolution printers we didn't expect and a borken printer we had to send back(currently holding everything back), the current pandemic further complicating the release of our products. One such thing is we had trouble hiring an illustrator for game art who would not negotiate contracts, given the vast majority of artists are trained to expect extensive royalties in collages, and ensure they own copyrights. Which wasn't tenable for us at the time, further delaying our product.

Well, I'm not playing at all at anything that's your assessment it does not reflect reality. What I am saying is that I don't put stock in DakkaDakka to provide the income I'm making elsewhere currently. As for a website displaying the lion's share of my work, will never touch DakkaDakka. I've stated my reasons as to why. And I don't intend to further explain myself. You don't have to understand it, but for me it's a cost and risk assessment that I generally don't have time for. Which I feel is off-topic entirely. The OP being about what others think a fair hourly rate for miniature sculpting is.

You and Overread seem to be talking past each other. They're saying 'You need to show your portfolio if you expect people to hire you' and you're responding with 'Dakka bad'.

Forget about Dakka (aside from the obvious point that you're asking for feedback here, which makes this whole discussion a bit odd, really)... If you want freelance work, you need to show people what you can do. 'I have a vast portfolio, but I can't show you because reasons' is not going to get you work. You need to show what you can do. If most of your portfolio is bound up in NDAs or has other reasons that it can't be shown, then you need to put together some other models that you can share. People will hire you if they see work that they like the look of. And, as Overread tried to explain, that doesn't mean you have to post everything on Dakka. I've found most of my freelancers through Artstation, Twitter, or trawling the internet for artists' personal websites, and tend to focus on those artists with a good range of (good) work on display.

Although it's also worth keeping in mind that regardless of how good you are and how well you present yourself, people will ghost you. if you don't have people thinking you're too expensive, you're probably not charging enough. A lot of your queries are going to come from hobbyists who had an idea for a model and have no idea how much it should realistically charge. It's not so much about undervaluing the work as just people not having a yardstick to begin with...


I show my work to actual customers, on a case-by-case basis, having an extensive portfolio on Dakka Dakka isn't tenable for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't have a portfolio, I should not have to explain myself period, at all. It's called taking people at their word. He would understand that if he wasn't reading past me. As soon as I said " I'm not conducting my business in the way and respectfully I don't need to explain why" He should have instantly replied with " Okay I don't agree but you're free to do you" and left it at that. And I didn't respond with Dakka Bad. I said there are some bad actors in the community and Ovreads continued pushing of his opinions wasn't asked for or welcome or correct. Respectfully.

And I disagree with having my professional portfolio available to Dakka with my real name on it given dakka's reputation and strong ideological leanings. However, Overeands continued pushing on the subject wasn't welcome was very rude and not asked for. Why is it so taboo to tell the guy No? I'm free to conduct my business as I see fit and if I wish to sparsely advertise on Dakka from time to time it's my choice and people should respect that. Period. I don't tell others how to conduct their business. I am not cruel to people that attack me, curt or succinct yes. But not cruel. And I don't take crap from anyone and I should not have to.

"'I have a vast portfolio, but I can't show you because reasons' is not going to get you work. You need to show what you can do. If most of your portfolio is bound up in NDAs or has other reasons that it can't be shown, then you need to put together some other models that you can share. People will hire you if they see work that they like the look of. And, as Overread tried to explain, that doesn't mean you have to post everything on Dakka. I've found most of my freelancers through Artstation, Twitter, or trawling the internet for artists' personal websites, and tend to focus on those artists with a good range of (good) work on display. " Yes, and I have explained many times that I show my work on a case-by-case basis. When it's relevant to do so. I have stated that i don't want to be doxxed by ideological leaning lefties that I have stated I ideologically disagree with, and given my portfolio has my name on it.. I'm not sharing it.. It's not "Reasons" you're intentionally obfuscating the point or misrepresenting what I said or skimming the post. This means I PULL images from my portfolio from time to time or use specific examples for different Platforms. You're implication that I'm somehow being dishonest here is incorrect. And what Overread is pushing is not an explanation it's jackassery, when he has been told specifically I have a portfolio I show on a case by case basis.

You're both not deaf, dumb or blind.. Read what I put.

And yes my portfolio is vast, it includes art, paintings, woodworking, over ten terabytes of sculpts and over 20 years of art. I select what I want to show based on who I am speaking with or what platform I'm posting on. Not every single artist shows EVERY single thing they have ever done on every platform. And it depends on the platform. DakkaDakka isn't Artstation isn't Polycount or other websites specifically for 3D modelling. Why in the love of God would I show my entire catalogue of sculpts here some of them not being miniatures. The fact it's so aliens of a concept to say otherwise to you is baffling and frankly confusing as all hell, that you don't get that. . I don't want to oversaturate DakkaDakka wow big surprise. The company as a whole agreed not to release images of the two IP's we're working on until the Kickstarter releases. How more plainly can I put it before you GET it. Do you want my social insurance number as well ? How about my ffing blood type?

And I particularly DON'T JUMP when someone asks me to. How do not get that?

Overread walked into this with a bad attitude and demanded I cow toe to his opinions because he had to be right. It became obvious after the many many unwanted replies where he could not take a man at his word. The implication is insulting. The Pushing wasn't welcome, and wasn't respectful.

Furthermore, I would love to address something that really actually bothers me about a recent trend, that possibly started in a strongly collectivist college environment, or a hard-left ideological way of thinking. Opinions are not important, you don't have to agree with everyone. It's only recently become this huge taboo thing to disagree with people, and it's a very recent change in society. It's a trend that I don't care for. It is not rude to say I disagree with someone's opinion.

It never has been rude, but it's becoming disturbing and if anyone (no one specifically) is butt hurt over witnessing someone disagree with an opinion that person should get some help. There is no "YOUR TRUTH" there is no "Her Truth" "his Truth" or any other kind of variation, there is only the truth and facts. It is not ethically wrong to say no I disagree.. No, you're incorrect and no I conduct myself differently than you.

I kept telling the the asshat that I show my portfolio on a case by case basis when it's relevant to do so.. are you all insane? Is this some kind of foreign concept? Do you know how business cards work? Samples?



This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 14:53:25


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I simply presented my viewpoint and reinforced it with justification and explanation. I never demanded that you did things, I simply said that if you wanted a certain result (finding customers to hire you for work) that the most likely way was through display of a portfolio of work.


You posted questioning about prices and complaining about being ghosted. Surely you can see that if you display a portfolio up front you already remove customers who might not like your styling and increase the chance of being approached by customers who already like your styling and work.




Also I'd note that no one "came to your business to tell you what to do". You came to a communal site where your potential customers are and asked why they weren't buying your stuff.
Yes you framed it directly at the financial side in seeing if you are charging too much; however without examples of your portfolio and without clear model designs and types to give context the numbers are hard to really give value to.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in ua
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Albertorius wrote:
As a general rule, I usually only hire people I either already know I can work with or people who wows me with stuff they've already done (and then I ask around a bit for people who's already worked with them before).

Price is more up and down, but I'd expect them to price themselves high enough for it to be worth the effort.


That's generally a good way of conducting business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I simply presented my viewpoint and reinforced it with justification and explanation. I never demanded that you did things, I simply said that if you wanted a certain result (finding customers to hire you for work) that the most likely way was through display of a portfolio of work.


You posted questioning about prices and complaining about being ghosted. Surely you can see that if you display a portfolio upfront you already remove customers who might not like your styling and increase the chance of being approached by customers who already like your styling and work.




Also I'd note that no one "came to your business to tell you what to do". You came to a communal site where your potential customers are and asked why they weren't buying your stuff.
Yes you framed it directly at the financial side in seeing if you are charging too much; however without examples of your portfolio and without clear model designs and types to give context the numbers are hard to really give value to.


You pushed your opinion on others. And you're still doing it. This isn't a Communal site we're not in a cult.. this isn't a collective and it's not a college campus and your word is not law. It's a very disjointed forum with tens of thousands of entirely unique individuals with tens of thousands of unique ideas. You may want it to be collectivist, you may push to make it collectivist but it's not. And not everyone is going to agree with you or need to. And frankly, it's disturbing from my perspective. Did tens of thousands of people agree to be in this collective? Was there a memo? Is there group meetings I'm unaware of? Is there a safe space where you pass around a gord or rain stick?

Do you want to know what happens in communes/ collectives they look for reasons to expel others, often resulting in prejudice or violence? You can see that attitude reflected in Rolsheen's and posermcbogus posts when I didn't agree with your completely irrelevant takes. And they are completely irrelevant, not objective, respectful in any way shape or forum.


"Also I'd note that no one "came to your business to tell you what to do". " This is exactly what you're doing.

"Surely you can see that if you display a portfolio upfront you already remove customers who might not like your styling and increase the chance of being approached by customers who already like your styling and work." This is irrelevant I give my portfolio or samples of my work on a case-by-case basis. And I have my portfolio off-site. I'm not actively expecting work on DakkaDakkka. You're not required to agree and you should respectfully say okay I don't agree and move on. The topic wasn't about how I advertise where or on which platforms, which isn't here. The specific topic was what's a fair amount to charge. Because SOME not all SOME customers ghost on DakkaDakka. And Considering they reach out already means that my advertising already works.. Further making your point irrelevant. They don't ghost because they don't see six hundred images of every angle of every single 3D model. People don't go to a bitz site and see 600 hundred images of every single model. There are three tops one head on most bitz stores. You're asking me to dissect my work. Well no, kiss my ass.

"In the end yes if you are hunting around Dakka chances are you are at the lower end of the market" - This is where your starting gak.

"Now you might overcome that by establishing yourself and showing off the quality of what you can produce" Again you starting more gak.

"Basically instead of just giving people quotes, show them what they are buying. Show them what they are likely to get as a result of your time and their money. Heck doing a twitch channel and doing a stream when you sculpt can also help a lot. Now you're showing people how long things really do take; what care and skill you put into sculpting. You're making them part of the process at the same time as marketing toward the general population. Then when you start quoting prices your customers aren't just looking at other established brands; they are looking at the skill of your output; the time you put into them and your marketing is already making them want to own what you design. " Again I have a twitch. And your still starting gak.

"Right now you're basically an unknown. You don't have enough or anything really up to show your style of sculpting;" And I am not an unknown that's a ridiculous assertion, I would not be able to eat food if I was an unknown. Am I artisan Guild level of popularity no. But I get work And simply because I shut down your asserertions for being incorrect does not mean I'm coming off as smug. I don't post here because of clowns like you. It does not reflect my work in other places such as the hundreds if not thousands of positive responses I've received on other platforms Like twitch. While talking to the painting community.

They ghost because of not understanding that people need to money for skilled labour. And don't expect the cost The amount of crap on DakkaDakka does not happen as often on other platforms. Stop pushing your ideas on others. I have more than enough work to show actual customers on a case-by-case basis. And it works for me. What do you think I show potential customers stick figures jackass? Or images my portfolio. Should I waste a lot of time posting every image from my portfolio no? "Surely you can see that if you display a portfolio upfront you already remove customers who might not like your styling and increase the chance of being approached by customers who already like your styling and work. " - How do you think the message me in the first place? It's like talking to a wall.

"Basically instead of just giving people quotes, show them what they are buying" What the feth do you think I do? gak on a piece of paper smear it around and hand it over?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
I wouldn't hire you based on your attitude.

Overread put a lot of effort in discussing and unpacking a lot of things for you.
Your reaction was utter contempt


Generally, contempt is the reaction you give someone being an a-hole.

You do understand what No means no is right? How else should I respond to a jerkoff being disrespectful that started with contempt pushing and pushing an idea that's off-topic and unwelcome?

I wouldn't hire you either bud sod off. Utter clown shoe. I took the liberty of ignoring you, you're more than welcome than doing the same. He wasn't discussing and unpacking anything what a garbage word usage "unpacking" my ass, the jerk off could not figure out what no means. If unpacking means being completely irrelevant, pushing your ideas on others and not having reading comprehension then you and he take the cake of unpacking. I explained my points I was god damned respectful even polite at first, and explained my positions, and demonstrated his irrelevancy I set a limit it was ignored and walked over. At that point, I don't need to respect an a-hole. It's akin to being a twice fired lunch lady walking into a chef's kitchen and trying to dictate how to make a beef wellington when you half-ass a bologna sandwich is made from soggy bread. No means no . It's not hard bud.

Albertorius,insaniak, MDSW,Insectum7,kodos, The_Real_Chris were respectful. You, Rolsheen, Posermcbogus not so much, in fact, you're acting very much like overprivileged, entitled college school girls students that don't get your way and protest irrelevant crap . "Unpacking" is the dead giveaway. And Overread was especially disrespectful.

This message was edited 39 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 15:48:41


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

The specific topic was what's a fair amount to charge.


"Fair" isn't the right word. About that matter things are entirely subjective and depending on the market, I mean what the rivals in the same business can offer to the customers.

In my opinion charging in hourly rates/currency is a baseless approach, because to do the exact same thing to sculptor A can take a fraction of time compared to sculptor B, and yet they ended up with the same result. So by this logic should sculptor B's work have more value? The answer is an obvious no. Quality of the product (which is subjective) and size of the product matter, not the time required to complete the job. Only thing we can do is having a look at a product and say: "ok, for my tastes/needs it worths X". It works like that in any artistic field. Does a book/paint/music album have more value because to the writer/painter/musician took forever to complete it?

It's all down to opinions, which you said they don't matter. Then why asking for "in your honest opinion..." in the first place?



 
   
Made in ua
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 Blackie wrote:
Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

The specific topic was what's a fair amount to charge.


"Fair" isn't the right word. About that matter things are entirely subjective and depending on the market, I mean what the rivals in the same business can offer to the customers.

In my opinion charging in hourly rates/currency is a baseless approach, because to do the exact same thing to sculptor A can take a fraction of time compared to sculptor B, and yet they ended up with the same result. So by this logic should sculptor B's work have more value? The answer is an obvious no. Quality of the product (which is subjective) and size of the product matter, not the time required to complete the job. Only thing we can do is having a look at a product and say: "ok, for my tastes/needs it worths X". It works like that in any artistic field. Does a book/paint/music album have more value because to the writer/painter/musician took forever to complete it?

It's all down to opinions, which you said they don't matter. Then why asking for "in your honest opinion..." in the first place?



Yes, opinions are not laws that need to be respected or it's some kind of taboo. Your statement is out of context and flippant with the intent. Which I feel you are doing intentionally to be smug or spiteful, You know the difference and you're intentionally trying to obfuscate the context.

The rest of your post was respectful and reasoned. Well generally speaking you give quotes on how long a job should take and the amount of effort it should take. It's not a one-size-fits-all. Another poster really nailed it on the head what if the person needs to make changes how else do you track the work and effort. If you state it's going to be 50$ a model, what if it takes 15 hours longer than expected and then the customer wants changes?

. "About that matter things are entirely subjective and depending on the market, I mean what the rivals in the same business can offer to the customers. " Perhaps. But can rivals do the same job it's not install flooring, it's art each artist has a different style and technique, one artist might mash shapes together and the other use panel lines on creases that make it pop more. Tho I agree to some extent on Fair being incorrect word usage. But it seems to generally get the point across. Given no specific model was highlighted, each artist is unique and each customer has an idea of what they are willing to pay for.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 13:48:03


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
I wouldn't hire you based on your attitude.

Overread put a lot of effort in discussing and unpacking a lot of things for you.
Your reaction was utter contempt


Generally, contempt is the reaction you give someone being an a-hole.

You do understand what No means no is right? How else should I respond to a jerkoff being disrespectful that started with contempt pushing and pushing an idea that's off-topic and unwelcome?

I wouldn't hire you either bud sod off. Utter clown shoe. I took the liberty of ignoring you, you're more than welcome than doing the same. He wasn't discussing and unpacking anything what a garbage word usage "unpacking" my ass, the jerk off could not figure out what no means. If unpacking means being completely irrelevant, pushing your ideas on others and not having reading comprehension then you and he take the cake of unpacking. I explained my points I was god damned respectful even polite at first, and explained my positions, and demonstrated its irrelevancy I set a limit it was ignored and walked over. At that point, I don't need to respect an a-hole. It's akin to being a twice fired lunch lady walking into a chef's kitchen and trying to dictate how to make a beef wellington when you half-ass a bologna sandwich is made from soggy bread. No means no . It's not hard bud.

Albertorius,insaniak, MDSW,Insectum7,kodos, The_Real_Chris were respectful. You, Rolsheen, Posermcbogus not so much, in fact, you're acting very much like overprivileged, entitled college school girls students that don't get your way and protest irrelevant crap . "Unpacking" is the dead giveaway. And Overread was especially disrespectful.


Seek professional help.

If you're upset when someone holds you to your own self stated standards it might just be that they are indeed selective double standards. 
   
 
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