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Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





Aside from "those guys but Chaos!" the newest factions are Tau and Nids as far as I remember and those have been around for some time already.
I'm not deep into GWs design philosophy and handling but how likely even is a new faction, do the players even want one?
If you do, what do you think are some unexplored niches in the roster?

For me it's a true robot "race". Yeah we have Mechanicus and to an extend Necron but they're not really true robots. With AI being such a threat to the Imperium, I'd love to see a sentient robot race with an AI/Singularity at its core. Might be getting close to Tyranid turf but basically an ever self replicating rogue AI that just wants to expand (or something cosmic horror-ish we just can't undestand ). With drones, tanks and all kinds of unconventional robot forms you could easily fill up an entire army roster with all kinds of cool robots. And lore wise it could fit neatly into the machine spirit parts and be a grim reminder to the Imperium about what happens when you make calculators too smart.

Probably has been thought of before and maybe there's even a reason why it won't happen but I always wondered how this isn't a thing already and I can see the minis clearly in my mind with a brutalist, blocky design.
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






The robot army niche is filled by the Necrons. Only those within the courts of the Necron nobility have any semblance of the people they were prior to the Bio-transference.
All the Canoptek constructs and anything lower than a Lychguard/Praetorian are mindless machines slaved to the will of an Overlord and even then an Overlord can call on Command Protocols at any point to turn anything under them into a puppet of their will.
   
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Alabama

More Xenos! Tyranids are more reptilian than anything so there's plenty of room for more bug-like aliens, like the megarachnids from the HH novels.

Design-wise I think we have enough factions so I would like to see new alien designs incorporated into the Tau or the Tyranids, depending on where they are on the humanoid-to-horrifying scale.
   
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Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

I don't think there's room for a new faction, but more Tau Auxilla or 'unaligned' alien mercenaries that could be taken by anyone would be good.

There was a rumour that 'Nid Gaunts are getting scaled down so there would be multiple on a single base (like rippers or nurglings), which could make them feel more swarm like...
   
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






beast beat me to it: I would also see some room for a kind of unaligned mercenary faction. Depends a bit if GW wants to explore the Tau alien auxilliary or not. If not (or not within the T'au faction) I could well see Kroot(mercenaries), Tarellan Dog soldiers, all other kind of Xenos (that would work as mercenaries), Gue'Vesa, human Mercenaries, Hive gangs, small Ork Boy groups etc.

Those could be allied in as detachment to most if not all other factions (I could see those working for an Ork-Warboss or a very pragmatic Necron Lord. Or even a Genestealer Cult. Only Tyranids could be picky when it comes to mercenaries but lore wise the later could just be infected with genestealers.
And as a bonus for going "mono-Mercenary" I could see the option to add certain units from other Codizes that migh (from a lore standpoint) work as temporary mercenaries, but that should not be easy to ally for other codizes. I don't know, stuff like Inquisitorial Akolytes, Ogryns that got lost from their regiment (and would likely not find back on their own) etc.

I'm not completely sure what one could give them to separate them from a gamey perspective to make them interesting in between the other factions. I guess the jiggsaw look alone might be funny

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United Kingdom

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Only Tyranids could be picky when it comes to mercenaries but lore wise the later could just be infected with genestealers.
Tyranid Mind-Slaves were a thing in the distant past:

Spoiler:
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Outside of coming up with an entirely new alien race, most of the existing alien races that aren't yet in the game are minor enough not to fit in the table top game. And the ones who are a larger threat wouldn't work well(enslavers wouldn't work well on the tabletop). Kroot could work as their own faction with some fleshing out though, they have actually spread across the galaxy as mercenaries and probably outnumber the Tau.

But there are a lot of non-Imperial human factions that could potentially be used. The Adranti from the Calixus sector, an advanced human civilization mostly defeated by the Imperium, but remnants still hide in the shadows.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Terrifying Doombull




Is there room? Absolutely. Now more than ever, actually, as there have been rumors and hints about things at the edges of the map (Ghoul Stars, etc) for a long time. With the Great Rift disrupting everything, there's absolutely space for the growth of new threats as defenders and patrols fail, especially in the galactic 'north.'

Its a matter of taking the time and doing it properly, rather than just doing a mini-faction and changing their mind or not supporting it properly. (see ynnari elfs)

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Changing Our Legion's Name






Fluff wise? I'd love to see the Q'orl be introduced as a greater presence. They're a bigger player than the Tau, are insectoid (as opposed to the Xenomorph/dino look of the nids) and are right smack dab next to Terra herself.



I mean, as far as non-imperial empires in 40k it *might* be the biggest, if not nearly the biggest, excluding ork empires. Pretty much the only thing they lack and has kept them in check is their lack of full warp drives. They know what Chaos is and how to deal with it, are quite resistant to it (both being a ant/bee like grouping and being able to alter their genetics), they've beaten the Imperium's sorry tail several times, and now are in the perfect place to expand. (One way I've seen it put is that if the Imperium is space Byzantium and Chaos is the Southern Slavs, the Q'orl are the Seljuks/Ottomans)

On tabletop however, with how stripped down the current edition is in general mechanics, I don't see a whole lot of design space available. As it stands the CWE are struggling to fit in a mechanical niche, and several other factions had advantages (such as CWE high initiative values) that were connected to mechanics that were removed and were never compensated for it. As much as I would like a new faction, I don't think that should happen until the game recovers some much needed mechanical depth. (And no GW, that doesn't mean a crap ton of stratagems and annoyingly obtuse faction-specific special rules)
   
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 Gert wrote:
The robot army niche is filled by the Necrons. Only those within the courts of the Necron nobility have any semblance of the people they were prior to the Bio-transference.
All the Canoptek constructs and anything lower than a Lychguard/Praetorian are mindless machines slaved to the will of an Overlord and even then an Overlord can call on Command Protocols at any point to turn anything under them into a puppet of their will.

Yeah but Necrons are too humanoid and cultured as in their aesthetic and behaviour is too human like.They also hold grudges which is a little too anthropomorphized as is their design. The whole scarab/ancient egyptian aesthetic doesn't help either.
They also don't really make much use of them being robots. They just happen to be robotic but it isn't essential to their identity.
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






 00001 wrote:

Yeah but Necrons are too humanoid and cultured as in their aesthetic and behaviour is too human like.They also hold grudges which is a little too anthropomorphized as is their design. The whole scarab/ancient egyptian aesthetic doesn't help either.

How does a machine holding a grudge make it less of a machine? Skynet comes online and then spends the next like 50 years eradicating humanity. Also not sure the ancient Egyptian style aesthetics make them less robotic? Being a machine doesn't mean the race doesn't have an ability to create art.

They also don't really make much use of them being robots. They just happen to be robotic but it isn't essential to their identity.

Yes. The immortal machines with the vast majority of its race lacking independent though or emotion that can be rebuilt not only in repair centres but on the battlefield and immediately start fighting again don't make good use of being robots.
   
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Brainy Zoanthrope




 Gert wrote:
 00001 wrote:

Yeah but Necrons are too humanoid and cultured as in their aesthetic and behaviour is too human like.They also hold grudges which is a little too anthropomorphized as is their design. The whole scarab/ancient egyptian aesthetic doesn't help either.

How does a machine holding a grudge make it less of a machine? Skynet comes online and then spends the next like 50 years eradicating humanity. Also not sure the ancient Egyptian style aesthetics make them less robotic? Being a machine doesn't mean the race doesn't have an ability to create art.

They also don't really make much use of them being robots. They just happen to be robotic but it isn't essential to their identity.

Yes. The immortal machines with the vast majority of its race lacking independent though or emotion that can be rebuilt not only in repair centres but on the battlefield and immediately start fighting again don't make good use of being robots.

Well I'm not sure if it's intentional but the op is essentially describing necrons before the race was revamped in 5th ed to be more human/relatable. I like the current necrons but do miss the unknowable evil element the oldcrons had.
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

Theres like a million different flavors of space marines, so clearly there is room for more flavor of robot armies, etc.

Personally, I think GWs long term plan is to establish "networks" of inter-related armies that can broadly categorized under keywords. "Imperium" (AdMech, AdSororitas, AdCustodes, Space Marines, Astra militarum, Sisters of Silence, Militarum Tempestus, etc.) and "Chaos" (Heretic Astartes, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Daemons, etc.) are very well developed, but "Xenos" doesn't really work in quite the same way and needs to be devolved down further into things like "Aeldari", "Tyranids", etc.

Broadly speaking the xenos factions can break down into 5 categories - Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Aeldari, T'au. Of these only Aeldari and Tyranids have been "developed" at all:

Aeldari
-Craftworlds
-Harlequins (being folded back into Craftworlds?)
-Ynnari (being folded back into Craftworlds?)
-Drukhari

Tyranids
-Hive Fleets
-Genestealer Cults

Aeldari can be developed further by fleshing out Ynnari more and introducing Exodites, as well as (re)branching off Corsairs as a separate subfaction. Potentially you could go a step further with Crone World Aeldari, but those might fall under Chaos (iirc theres a graphic in the core rulebook which identifies the different flavors of Eldar that I mentioned here (with the exception of Crone Worlds). One of them is "censored", which hints at the existence of another flavor, which I'm guessing is the Crone Worlds.

Tyranids I'm not sure how much further you can go with the concept other than making a Tyranid aligned Zoat faction or codex supplementing various hive fleets or making vanguard organisms separate from Tyranids proper (which GSC already kinda does to a limited extent), etc. but just fleshing out GSC and Tyranids should suffice in any case.

Of the remaining factions, Orks lend themselves to expansion by way of the Grot Revolushunary Kommittee (make it happen GW), but could also potentially get cute by (re)introducing Digga(nob)s back into the mix or making Stompa Mobs or whatever a separate faction ala Imperial Knights. T'au are perhaps the easiest, as Farsight Enclaves, Kroot, Vespid, and potentially a "T'au Auxiliaries" army could all be spun off into separate subfactions. The only one that we really run into trouble with is Necrons, which I'm not sure what you can do with other than spinning off Flayer-crons into a separate subfaction, and potentially a Necron cultist faction which sees the return of Pariahs, etc.

Thats my theory for where things are eventually headed anyway.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




They should add Exodites, simply because they have been mentioned so many times in relatively recent releases in a sort of nudge nudge wink wink fashion. It would round out all the major Eldar factions/ways of life. Their motivation even has been laid out in those hints. The younger Exodites were more inspired to take action by the sight of the Phoenix Lords and might want to align with Biel-Tan in reclaiming Eldar worlds to recreate a new Eldar empire.
   
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 Gert wrote:
 00001 wrote:

Yeah but Necrons are too humanoid and cultured as in their aesthetic and behaviour is too human like.They also hold grudges which is a little too anthropomorphized as is their design. The whole scarab/ancient egyptian aesthetic doesn't help either.

How does a machine holding a grudge make it less of a machine? Skynet comes online and then spends the next like 50 years eradicating humanity. Also not sure the ancient Egyptian style aesthetics make them less robotic? Being a machine doesn't mean the race doesn't have an ability to create art.

They also don't really make much use of them being robots. They just happen to be robotic but it isn't essential to their identity.

Yes. The immortal machines with the vast majority of its race lacking independent though or emotion that can be rebuilt not only in repair centres but on the battlefield and immediately start fighting again don't make good use of being robots.


It's missing the technological side of the robotics. They're more like SciFi zombies/vampires (mummies even) (especially with them existing as a mortal humanoid race once) instead of an actual robot race. Their mind isn't AI in origin either.
They're fundamentally just humans with a different coat of paint and advanced technology, not a AI singularity building wierd killer robots. Idk how else to put it, but Necrons definitely don't scratch that itch, neither philosophically nor technically.
Just like most fantasy races that are just "pretty human with pointy ears", "grumpy short human with beard" and "green angry human" they don't fill the true potential of creating something alien and different. The Nids are a good indicator on how to do it right. Completely incomprehensible, mysterious in origin and as inhuman as possible. Replace hive mind with AI, biomass with raw materials and chitin, muscle and teeth with metal, wires and guns and you got it.
   
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Tampa,FL USA

That exists in the Men of Iron. The problem is that they've been driven nearly extinct by the Imperium.

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 Gert wrote:
 00001 wrote:

Yeah but Necrons are too humanoid and cultured as in their aesthetic and behaviour is too human like.They also hold grudges which is a little too anthropomorphized as is their design. The whole scarab/ancient egyptian aesthetic doesn't help either.

How does a machine holding a grudge make it less of a machine? Skynet comes online and then spends the next like 50 years eradicating humanity. Also not sure the ancient Egyptian style aesthetics make them less robotic? Being a machine doesn't mean the race doesn't have an ability to create art.

They also don't really make much use of them being robots. They just happen to be robotic but it isn't essential to their identity.

Yes. The immortal machines with the vast majority of its race lacking independent though or emotion that can be rebuilt not only in repair centres but on the battlefield and immediately start fighting again don't make good use of being robots.

Sounds like you're playing dumb. Sci-fi has a long history of emotionless, utilitarian robots, and it seems like that's what 00001 is discussing.

Skynet did not have a "grudge." It had an objective (eradicating humanity) based on a logical conclusion (humanity will eradicate Skynet). Of course, later productions in the Terminator franchise couldn't resist the temptation to give the robots/Skynet personalities and emotions, because that's an easy/brainless way to "develop" the lore.

Incidentally, we've seen the exact same thing occur in our hobby. See: the sudden decision that Tyranid creatures could have personalities/emotions, too! IIRC the first fleshed-out Necron fluff in the first Necron codex did the same thing, and it has continued. Both of those factions began as monolithic emotionless, utilitarian forces, and then were anthropomorphized in the name of "developing" the lore.

So there is absolutely a place in the 40K background for a faction of "robotics," either mechanical or biological, who completely lack personality and emotion and have a utilitarian design with none of the vestigial decoration found on Necrons. The problem is that GW would inevitably do the same thing they did to Necrons and Tyranids, and "deepen" the lore by showing how, yes, in fact, some of these robots have feelings.
   
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Tampa,FL USA

AI having feelings has been part of 40K since the beginning. Part of the charm in the setting is that you have to keep your Land Raider "happy". Servitors, on the other hand, DO fill the emotionless utilitarian niche in the setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 20:46:28


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
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 Platuan4th wrote:
That exists in the Men of Iron. The problem is that they've been driven nearly extinct by the Imperium.

I don't think how that would rule out a faction like this. Yes, the Imperium killed off their own rogue AI. But there's a whole galaxy out there with sentient aliens, any of which could've created a general AI by accident that went rampant. It would btw only add to that hypothetical faction's lore if the original creators were totally insignificant nobodies and also long forgotten as the AI snuffed their space faring potential out early on.
   
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The Men of Iron could always come back with some easy Handwavium. Just say so-and-so found a damaged STC somewhere that was dormant, but when turned on began making more Men of Iron.

This actually happened in Gaunts Ghosts. They find an STC that is corrupted by chaos and begins making chaos corrupted Men of Iron. They destroy it and stop it, but that doesn't mean more couldn't be out there. It just takes a couple of Men of Iron with an STC or some other schematic to replicate themselves and they can make more. Chaos corruption is just optional flavoring.

BTW, the Imperium didn't destroy the men of iron. Humanity won the war with the Men of Iron long before the Imperium rose. This happened at the end of the dark age of technology sometime in M23. The prohibition against AI isn't just an Imperial law or tradition, it is a primal fear ingrained in the psyche of all mankind, Imperial or not. A collective phobia ingrained into mankind's DNA from 17k years in the past. Everybody knows that AI is bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 22:52:06


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Lebanon NH

Personally, I think that non-humanoid xenos need to be explored more. A robot race where all the units are large and very non-humanoid would be rad, as would some kind of lovecraftian horror vibe faction. Techno-barbarians also have seemed like an amazing concept that hasn't been fully explored.

Gameplay wise there are definitely very few niches left to fill, but more and more I'm not really seeing that as a problem.

So many armies can play in multiple different ways (elites, vehicles, swarm, close-combat, turtle, etc) that the whole "a new faction needs a new gameplay space" is seeming less of a concern. At least in my opinion.
   
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Spoiler:
 00001 wrote:

It's missing the technological side of the robotics. They're more like SciFi zombies/vampires (mummies even) (especially with them existing as a mortal humanoid race once) instead of an actual robot race. Their mind isn't AI in origin either.
They're fundamentally just humans with a different coat of paint and advanced technology, not a AI singularity building wierd killer robots. Idk how else to put it, but Necrons definitely don't scratch that itch, neither philosophically nor technically.
Just like most fantasy races that are just "pretty human with pointy ears", "grumpy short human with beard" and "green angry human" they don't fill the true potential of creating something alien and different. The Nids are a good indicator on how to do it right. Completely incomprehensible, mysterious in origin and as inhuman as possible. Replace hive mind with AI, biomass with raw materials and chitin, muscle and teeth with metal, wires and guns and you got it.

If you only look at the Necron nobility then yes they are similar to the undead but you'd then be ignoring the majority of the race that are nothing but mindless machines slaved to Command Protocols as well as the Canoptek Constructs that maintain the Tomb Worlds and the Tomb World itself is in fact one colossal A.I. with one even killing it's Phaeron and taking command of the Legions that awoke within.
As for the Necron mind not being A.I. in origin, do you not know that SciFi A.I. are based on a human mind? The whole point of an A.I. is that it can pass the Turing Test and be indistinguishable from a human in its behaviour. The mind is a biological computer and the point of A.I. creation is to be able to mimic that computer artificially.
The Necrons are objectively not missing any sort of technological component that renders them not machine lifeforms.

Spoiler:
 Altruizine wrote:

Sounds like you're playing dumb. Sci-fi has a long history of emotionless, utilitarian robots, and it seems like that's what 00001 is discussing.

Skynet did not have a "grudge." It had an objective (eradicating humanity) based on a logical conclusion (humanity will eradicate Skynet). Of course, later productions in the Terminator franchise couldn't resist the temptation to give the robots/Skynet personalities and emotions, because that's an easy/brainless way to "develop" the lore.

Incidentally, we've seen the exact same thing occur in our hobby. See: the sudden decision that Tyranid creatures could have personalities/emotions, too! IIRC the first fleshed-out Necron fluff in the first Necron codex did the same thing, and it has continued. Both of those factions began as monolithic emotionless, utilitarian forces, and then were anthropomorphized in the name of "developing" the lore.

So there is absolutely a place in the 40K background for a faction of "robotics," either mechanical or biological, who completely lack personality and emotion and have a utilitarian design with none of the vestigial decoration found on Necrons. The problem is that GW would inevitably do the same thing they did to Necrons and Tyranids, and "deepen" the lore by showing how, yes, in fact, some of these robots have feelings.

Tyranids don't have personalities or emotions beyond rudimentary animalistic instincts. Any time a Tyranid is shown to have some kind of emotion it's always a human character applying those characteristics, just like when people think Spaniels look sad all the time when that's just how they look or that their cat is giving them death stares when again, that's just how cats look.

Also, it wasn't just humanity that destroyed the Men of Iron, it was a galactic alliance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 17:21:32


 
   
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London

Fluff aside, what gameplay style do you think isn't being met?

We have pushed the rickety system with LoW/Knights. An all flier army? Can't see that working well.
   
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Northumberland

I think another robot faction would be difficult to add and make clearly defined thematically and aesthetically, ditto another "bug" faction.

I think it would be difficult at this stage to add another unique faction. The smart thing to do is to add more xenos to the Tau, but they seem determined not to do so.

Some kind of asteroid dwelling space skaven (Hrud are not the same before one of you says it), with perhaps centaur like allies to act as shock cavalry. Maybe rather than warpstone they use geothermal tech, magma powered vehicles. Go for a bioshock 1920s sci fi space suit vibe.

Or perhaps an all flying army of xenos, levitating creatures that have a strong connection to the warp but are somehow unaffected by Chaos.

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Lebanon NH


Personally, I think that this type of thing as a faction would be super cool:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1031251568/mechanical-hive-third-wave-alien-shuttle?click_key=f3e9bd6acbcb197a7185464fa1da582d904b71ed%3A1031251568&click_sum=70744221&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=bLUARt+Miniatures&ref=sr_gallery-1-3&organic_search_click=1&frs=1

Kind of a mix of lovecraftian horror and technology, with almost exclusively non-humanoid creatures of a somewhat large size (I think most of those are around dreadnought size).

Obviously, this kind of steps on the feet of Demons and Tyranids (I'm pretty sure the models in the link are supposed to be used a proxy for those factions) but I think that you could work on the fluff enough to make them feel unique and interesting.

Oh, I would also love to see a 40k version of giants. An army of giants wielding giant guns and ridiculous 40k tech would be hella cool!
   
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leerm02 wrote:
Oh, I would also love to see a 40k version of giants. An army of giants wielding giant guns and ridiculous 40k tech would be hella cool!

So... Knights...
   
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Lebanon NH

Weird, I didn't realize that I typed knights when I meant giants. Totally strange how that happened!

Might it be... no, this would be TOO crazy... might it be that there is more than one way to have a big dude with guns? Bah, forget I even suggested it. What a far fetched idea!
   
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The only physical difference between a Knight and an AoS Gargant is one is metal and one is meat. In background, sure they differ but what would a 40k version of Gargants do that Knights don't already cover?
Big unit that dishes pain and takes hits in its stride? Check. Heavy ranged firepower and extra killy CQC weapons? Check. Fancy weapons? Check. Small model count based around titanic models? Check.
If we're looking for niches to fill, big stompy army with small model count and lots of guns/combat power is filled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 19:05:53


 
   
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New armies don't need a niche to exist.

GW is perfectly happy to spend time and effort retreading space marines ad nauseum, so limiting new armies due to a self imposed niche is basically just a way to prevent anything new that's not a space Marine...

   
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Earth

loads, we do not have a faction of proper avian models (kroot are a sub faction), we do not have a dark mechanicum faction yet, we do not have proper alien ... aliens, the nids are still too humanoid.
   
 
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