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Honest question here, I saw the new Kroot statline and rules and it immediately struck me that Kroot are now better than boyz. I know they don't get sept rules and don't benefit from markerlights (except for a strat I think) but overall, do you think their profiles are better than the boyz profile?

A Boy is 9ppm, M5, WS3 BS5 S4 T5 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.
A Kroot is 6ppm, M7, WS3 BS4, S4 T3 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.

Weapons wise the Boy has a 12' S4 pistol the Kroot has a 24' S4 rapid fire rifle. Both have -1AP CC weapons.

Inherent rules I'm not sure on everything the kroot have yet, but the boy has Ere We go and Mob Rule. I know for certain kroot have a version of "infiltrate" in that they get a free movement of 7' before the game starts and they get +1 in light cover giving them a 4+ save while in cover.

Pt for Pt, boyz are still better in CC, but the durability buff (in cover) and the ranged dmg I think more than makes up the difference, as does the points cost difference which means you are less inclined to care about morale casualties if they do happen and of course the benefit of a 7' pre-game move which means you can likely be holding most midfield objectives turn 1...and if there happens to be cover there as well...all the better.

Yes I know we don't have the full codex yet so we are jumping the gun a wee bit, but I feel these could see competitive play where as with boys I just don't think they serve much of a purpose. Let me know what you think

T5 > T3

Point for Point they are equal in melee with 0 outside buffs.
3 kroot = 2 boyz = 6 WS3, s4 -1ap 1d attacks

Kroot are on smaller bases = better
Kroot are faster
Kroot have a better save when in cover
Kroot have a better shooting profile (at bs4!)
Orks have higher toughness

I think Kroot are better than Boyz.

Genuine question and not snark…

How do we know Kroot are gonna be 6ppm? If it’s been shown, then totally fair enough.

But remember. Kroot are about as good as it’s gets for Tau when it comes to fisticuffs. Boyz? Not so much.

These things matter, and affect relative point values. Not necessarily accurately, but it’s still a factor which prevents direct comparisons.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Genuine question and not snark…

How do we know Kroot are gonna be 6ppm? If it’s been shown, then totally fair enough.

But remember. Kroot are about as good as it’s gets for Tau when it comes to fisticuffs. Boyz? Not so much.

These things matter, and affect relative point values. Not necessarily accurately, but it’s still a factor which prevents direct comparisons.

Was leaked, and all the other leaks from that same source have been correct. Also....Tau now have one of...if not THE best Melee characters in the game

SemperMortis wrote:

Yes I know we don't have the full codex yet so we are jumping the gun a wee bit, but I feel these could see competitive play where as with boys I just don't think they serve much of a purpose. Let me know what you think

I think your comparison is pointless.
Different armies, different functions for similar units.
Kroot:
You may see Kroot in competitive lists because they provide some Tau players something they want/need - some sort of bulk CC options. They fight better than Firewarriors & they're cheaper and more expendable than suits.... so they may have a place in some people's lists.
Likewise, if you removed Kroot but let those same Tau players use ork boyz instead? They'd use ork boyz. Because they still need that CC.

Ork boyz:
Ork boyz in an ork list.... Well, at their base, they provide what every other ork does.
Their "thing"? Is that they can be fielded in larger mobs than the more specialized orks - something it seems many ork players are adverse to doing. And since they aren't making use of those larger squad sizes they'd rather pay the pts for more of the specialized orks.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest question here, I saw the new Kroot statline and rules and it immediately struck me that Kroot are now better than boyz. I know they don't get sept rules and don't benefit from markerlights (except for a strat I think) but overall, do you think their profiles are better than the boyz profile?

A Boy is 9ppm, M5, WS3 BS5 S4 T5 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.
A Kroot is 6ppm, M7, WS3 BS4, S4 T3 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.

Weapons wise the Boy has a 12' S4 pistol the Kroot has a 24' S4 rapid fire rifle. Both have -1AP CC weapons.

Inherent rules I'm not sure on everything the kroot have yet, but the boy has Ere We go and Mob Rule. I know for certain kroot have a version of "infiltrate" in that they get a free movement of 7' before the game starts and they get +1 in light cover giving them a 4+ save while in cover.

Pt for Pt, boyz are still better in CC, but the durability buff (in cover) and the ranged dmg I think more than makes up the difference, as does the points cost difference which means you are less inclined to care about morale casualties if they do happen and of course the benefit of a 7' pre-game move which means you can likely be holding most midfield objectives turn 1...and if there happens to be cover there as well...all the better.

Yes I know we don't have the full codex yet so we are jumping the gun a wee bit, but I feel these could see competitive play where as with boys I just don't think they serve much of a purpose. Let me know what you think

You've removed a critical factor from consideration here - the boy gets +1A from his choppa, while the Kroot Rifle does not grant +1A.

So damage wise a Kroot is 2A S3 AP-1 while a boy is 3A S4 AP-1.

Also, if you place both in cover, T3 Sv4+ vs T5 Sv5+? No contest Boyz are gonna be tougher.

The main reason I think we WILL see Kroot and WONT see boyz is the points cost. Kroot work extremely well as action monkey units and in a pinch as a screen with the pregame move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Ork boyz:
Ork boyz in an ork list.... Well, at their base, they provide what every other ork does.
Their "thing"? Is that they can be fielded in larger mobs than the more specialized orks - something it seems many ork players are adverse to doing. And since they aren't making use of those larger squad sizes they'd rather pay the pts for more of the specialized orks.

^this, as well. Part of the reason we don't see Boyz is because straight up Stormboyz and Kommandos exist and just do the exact same thing but better. It's part of why the Goonhammer take on "Hammerhead Good but Skyray Also Good???" i think is silly - the Hammerhead has worse variance than the Skyray, sure, but it pays LITERALLY TEN POINTS to IGNORE INVULN SAVES. the amount of heavy units out there sans invuln saves is so laughably small that I really, REALLY do not see anyone taking a Skyray, or a Broadside or Stormsurge, basically ever. Why would you? Slap an appropriate number of hammerheads into the list for whatever the tank/monster meta looks like and be done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Genuine question and not snark…

How do we know Kroot are gonna be 6ppm? If it’s been shown, then totally fair enough.

But remember. Kroot are about as good as it’s gets for Tau when it comes to fisticuffs. Boyz? Not so much.

These things matter, and affect relative point values. Not necessarily accurately, but it’s still a factor which prevents direct comparisons.

Was leaked, and all the other leaks from that same source have been correct. Also....Tau now have one of...if not THE best Melee characters in the game

A coldstar commander with Onager+proto flamer+2 fusions+shield generator is 170 points. it is pretty hella strong in melee, 4 S12 Ap-4 D3 WS3+ attacks and D6+2 S4 Ap-2 D2 attacks, all with reroll to hit and wound, plus 2 fusion guns to melt things at range.

numbers-wise that's enough to deal 13 wounds vs a T7 3+ vehicle profile. Pretty impressive. But its also not that difficult to make a smash character with a real melee profile that can put out similar numbers, while also dealing more damage in the form of unavoidable sources like Mortal Wounds and at a cheaper point cost. A Beastboss on Squigosaur costs fewer points, does slightly more damage, and on average 3.4 of the 13.4 wounds come in the form of Mortals.

People are comparing this Tau smash commander to stuff like "a 120pt space marine captain" when a more accurate point of comparison is something like a Lord Discordant for his points cost. He also cares about basically every special rule that exists. Mostly, people seem to care about him because...theyre offended, I guess. if you could outfit a special salamanders jump captain with this loadout for 170pts or some kind of special flying custode character nobody would blink an eye.

Kroot is 2 s4 attacks. So 2 boys 6 attacks, 3 kroots 6 attacks. Same ws,, s, ap.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Genuine question and not snark…

How do we know Kroot are gonna be 6ppm? If it’s been shown, then totally fair enough.

But remember. Kroot are about as good as it’s gets for Tau when it comes to fisticuffs. Boyz? Not so much.

These things matter, and affect relative point values. Not necessarily accurately, but it’s still a factor which prevents direct comparisons.

The entire codex was leaked.

Boyz I would guess can benefit from more strats and auras too.

SemperMortis wrote:
Also....Tau now have one of...if not THE best Melee characters in the game

I mean people have been saying that about every codex. Remember the video of that DA character that was "totally insane"....and then no one ever took it?

T'au get punchy character with a gakload of guns. Not sure it breaks any barriers though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Also....Tau now have one of...if not THE best Melee characters in the game

I mean people have been saying that about every codex. Remember the video of that DA character that was "totally insane"....and then no one ever took it?

T'au get punchy character with a gakload of guns. Not sure it breaks any barriers though.

True, but that was in response to the comment that Kroot carnivores make up the majority of Tau CC. With Suits now able to shoot in CC...they actually aren't bad , just gotta pick the right targets to get stuck in with.

Gotta remember that little bit when it comes to the Tau commander, he is punchy AND he can shoot in Combat now. That is a hell of a +

Shooting into combat is definitely nice, but you still have to survive until next turn to do it.

I haven't really thought about it directly, but I feel like 30 points for W4 T5 is a steal - especially with LD9 now.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest question here, I saw the new Kroot statline and rules and it immediately struck me that Kroot are now better than boyz. I know they don't get sept rules and don't benefit from markerlights (except for a strat I think) but overall, do you think their profiles are better than the boyz profile?

A Boy is 9ppm, M5, WS3 BS5 S4 T5 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.
A Kroot is 6ppm, M7, WS3 BS4, S4 T3 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.

Weapons wise the Boy has a 12' S4 pistol the Kroot has a 24' S4 rapid fire rifle. Both have -1AP CC weapons.

Inherent rules I'm not sure on everything the kroot have yet, but the boy has Ere We go and Mob Rule. I know for certain kroot have a version of "infiltrate" in that they get a free movement of 7' before the game starts and they get +1 in light cover giving them a 4+ save while in cover.

Pt for Pt, boyz are still better in CC, but the durability buff (in cover) and the ranged dmg I think more than makes up the difference, as does the points cost difference which means you are less inclined to care about morale casualties if they do happen and of course the benefit of a 7' pre-game move which means you can likely be holding most midfield objectives turn 1...and if there happens to be cover there as well...all the better.

Yes I know we don't have the full codex yet so we are jumping the gun a wee bit, but I feel these could see competitive play where as with boys I just don't think they serve much of a purpose. Let me know what you think

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

It just gets worse when you look at a lot of the anit-"horde" ranged weapons. Most of them are S4-S5 - Heavy Bolters, Hurricane Bolters, Regular Onlsaught, etc - but then you get into the new sweetspot. S6/S7 Autocannons, Heavy Onslaught, Assault Cannons, Kheres Assault Cannons and the like will wound Kroot on 2's and Orks on 3's.

Lets assume you're going up against Marines (since its 1: the most popular-ish army, and 2: the one I know) How many of those armies have Dreads right now? We just hit a ton of Assault or (Assorted) Onslaught cannons. How about Boltstorm Aggressors with a ton of S4 -0? Intercessors with S4 -1? Speeders (especially the HB/AC Tornados gathering dust in too many storage cases), The Hailstrikes that just went down in price, OGC ATV's, Stormtalons or Stormhawks. I doubt we'll see a lot Landraiders or Repulsors because even with good guns they're bad points. I suppose there's also an outside shot of seeing some Gladiator Reapers or Predator Anhilators (with Chronus potential).

I'm not saying we won't see a Meta shift, but I will guess any Meta Shift we would see is more likely to be small and "sidegrade" than "upgrade". By which I mean most of the units you see hit the table will be the same or were already coming from points drops. They'll just either be better, or get a slightly different loadout. Some will be new, I doubt you've seen many Tornadoes lately, but people were already complaining about Dreads, now you just may see them more with Heavy Onslaught or old schools with AssCans.

Breton wrote:

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save = 9 AP1 bolter shots to kill 2 boyz. Takes 10.12 bolter shots to take down kroot in cover.

If we go to no AP 10,8 bolter shots vs 3 boyz vs 13.5 shots.

So if you want to show how boyz is tougher better to find up better examples As vs those bolters you are flat out wrong.

I think that everyone here is missing one huge detail about this comparison.

Kroots don't get Sept bonuses.
Boyz do.

You don't compare a Kroot to a Boy.
You compare a Kroot to a Goff Boy.

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save = 9 AP1 bolter shots to kill 2 boyz. Takes 10.12 bolter shots to take down kroot in cover.

If we go to no AP 10,8 bolter shots vs 3 boyz vs 13.5 shots.

So if you want to show how boyz is tougher better to find up better examples As vs those bolters you are flat out wrong.

9 shots, (3+ so 2/3 hit) 6 hits, (3+ 2/3 again) 4 wound, (4+ cover -1 AP is 5+ so a little more than half) 2+ die. Did you forget to go down to T3 for Kroot?
vs Boys 9 shots, 6 hits, (T5 is 5+ so 1/3) 2 wounds No Save or 1/6 save with cover and a little under 2.

SemperMortis wrote:
do you think their profiles are better than the boyz profile?

A Boy is M5, WS3 BS5 S4 T5 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.
A Kroot is M7, WS3 BS4, S4 T3 LD6 2 attacks and 6+ save.

No.

Nobody wrote:do you think their points efficiency is better than the boyz points efficiency?

A Boy is 9 pts.
A Kroot is 6 pts.

Boyz have turned out to be a little overcosted and I theorize that Kroot have a fair cost because pre-game moves are really awesome.

...plus 2 fusion guns to melt things at range.

Not only at range...

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save = 9 AP1 bolter shots to kill 2 boyz. Takes 10.12 bolter shots to take down kroot in cover.

It's 10,13 not 10,12 bolter shots to kill 3 Kroot in cover Why do the Orks not get a cover save? 9*1,2=10,8. 10,8>10,13. With no cover it's 9 shots to take down 2 Orks vs 6,75 shots to take down 3 Kroot, either way the Orks come out slightly on top in terms of durability per point assuming you don't give one cover while leaving the other out in the open. The Boyz take no damage from most weapons if they sneak behind a ruin and remain out of LOS, best durability ever.

3 kroot = 2 boyz = 6 WS3, s4 -1ap 1d attacks

Kroot are on smaller bases = better

That cancels out though, if the Kroot had the same size bases they wouldn't be able to get in there with 50% more models.

PenitentJake wrote:
Boyz I would guess can benefit from more strats and auras too.

Dysfunctional non integration in the ork dex makes this the exception, not the rule.

PenitentJake wrote:
Boyz I would guess can benefit from more strats and auras too.

Not really, which is one of the biggest problems of boyz. GW pretty much axed or nerfed into oblivion everything that could support boyz in 8th. Their best stratagems are the tankbusta bomb and ignoring modifiers to charge range, and the only aura they might have is +1 to hit in melee if you brought a foot warboss(neither speed bosses nor beast bosses buff them) and rarely a 6++ KFF.

 Jidmah wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Boyz I would guess can benefit from more strats and auras too.

Not really, which is one of the biggest problems of boyz. GW pretty much axed or nerfed into oblivion everything that could support boyz in 8th. Their best stratagems are the tankbusta bomb and ignoring modifiers to charge range, and the only aura they might have is +1 to hit in melee if you brought a foot warboss(neither speed bosses nor beast bosses buff them) and rarely a 6++ KFF.

I mean, you can have a squad of truckboyz..... which work.... kinda.... (just why waste truckboyz on boys if you can pick Nobs, or warbosses...)
Also only lord knows what it is with gw constantly shafting the shoota, which supposedly is one of the favourite weapons of boyz for its effectiveness and noise...

In all fairness, trukk boyz do work and since you have to bring boyz as tax anyways, might as well make them good at something. Quite a few competitive players are using trukk boyz+trukk warboss to actually shift something, but at that point you are using 150+ points and 2CP and 2 special mobs to make a troops unit not garbage.

 Jidmah wrote:
In all fairness, trukk boyz do work and since you have to bring boyz as tax anyways, might as well make them good at something. Quite a few competitive players are using trukk boyz+trukk warboss to actually shift something, but at that point you are using 150+ points and 2CP and 2 special mobs to make a troops unit not garbage.

10 boys are 90, the truck alone is 70, the warboss is 90 again if i am not wrong. Bare minnimum.
lets be honest, you are paying a lot more, otoh, CP not very usefull for orks i feel like, so that cost i think one can discard (unless you play speedmob), the specialists otoh does sting a bit.

Its honestly surprising how non integrated ork units feel , compared to say GSC.

From the rumors I saw, Kroots don't have a pregame move.
Those are the kroot hounds.

Sorry, I was somehow stuck in wishful thinking assuming the warboss was 90 including the PK

But yeah, I also had the impression the ork codex doesn't even feel like it was by written by the same company as the DG codex was. It works well on the tabletop, but not because it was a well designed codex.

Spoletta wrote:
From the rumors I saw, Kroots don't have a pregame move.
Those are the kroot hounds.

Kroot Carnivores do have a pregame move, just like Kroot Hounds, Krootox Riders and Kroot Shapers.
It's "Ambushing Predators" and it's the first rule on their datasheet: a 7" pregame move.

As for their comparison to Ork Boys: Kroots will not be taken for combat purposes, to take objectives or to charge stuff.
They are the cheapest troop choice in the codex (60 points min size unit) and that's the main reason why they'll see play. "Toys before boys" works quite well in a codex packed with interesting units that deal a ton of damage.
The fact that they can be T1 screens/speedbumps vs fast armies is an added bonus.

As for the railgun Hammerhead debate: 1-2 per list will be more than enough, Broadsides are insanely good for their cost so they'll see even more play.
A railgun is efficient vs 10+ wounds targets. Anything less and you're wasting damage, lowering it's efficiency. Broadsides with d3+3 damage + 1 mortal are way more flexible and they still have S9 with access to +1 to wound in Tau Sept, on top of all the other buffs that being CORE infantry means.
Also in septs different than Tau or FSE you have a single shot 3+ to hit (rerollable), that wounds T8 on a 3+. It's not guaranteed damage by any means. Even if you keep the CP reroll for it, it's a 3+ rerollable followed by a 3+ rerollable. A 79% chance of going through, provided you have line of sight and no defensive buffs on the target (transhuman, no rerolls, -1 to hit, -1 to wound, ...). And the CP reroll only works once per phase, obviously.

I feel you missed books Semper, you used to put a "unit in new codex makes orks bad" thread for most releases, I feel you skipped a few.

Spoletta wrote:
From the rumors I saw, Kroots don't have a pregame move.
Those are the kroot hounds.

"Their ability to surge forward as the battle begins is now shared across all Kroot units."

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save = 9 AP1 bolter shots to kill 2 boyz. Takes 10.12 bolter shots to take down kroot in cover.

If we go to no AP 10,8 bolter shots vs 3 boyz vs 13.5 shots.

So if you want to show how boyz is tougher better to find up better examples As vs those bolters you are flat out wrong.

You didn't grant cover to the boyz.

10 S4 AP0
1.5 Boyz in cover = ~13 points
2.2 Kroot in cover = ~13 points

10 S4 AP1
1.8 Boyz in cover = ~17 points
3.0 Kroot in cover = ~17 points
2.2 Boyz w/ no cover = ~20 points
4.4 Kroot w/ no cover = ~27 points

Defensively sure boys are T5

But Kroot have +1sv in cover, AND +1 wound.

Since you can bring 3 kroot = 3 w, vs 2 boys = 2w

No question, Kroot are superior melee troop horde.


Boyz should be 7ppm.