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Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






So as I'm sure we all know there is a new edition on the way and I thought I'd drudge up some conversation about it now that we're getting closer to release date. What is everyone expecting for rules changes? Models?

Talk about whatever you want regarding the new edition! Are you happy, sad, pensive? If GW pulls a fast one will you stick it out with the changes or will you keep using the current rules?

I think the thing I'm most worried about is GW scaling up the new minis, we know the new characters are slightly larger. I'm hoping GW has realized the hatred that is caused by scale creep and lays off this time, double hoping this for the sake of those of us who went wild on BaC and BoP! And for those of us who planned on using those kits! And to not leave it on a negative note I am looking forward to HH getting datacards. Love not having to flip through a book to double check weapon stats and the like. Plus it's HH so they ought to make the datacards really awesome looking.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





If the rumors around the Reaction System are to be believed, then it will make or break the new HH system.

I just hope they keep Zone Mortalis so I can see if I can get the 40k crowd where I'm moving to into HH as well. (That and it makes managing the huge numbers of 30k stuff I have/plan to get easier)
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

The reaction system seriously concerns me.
We've seen the core rules and a few of the "unique" ones - and they look bad imo.
It seems like they've taken all the worst "gotcha" strategems in 40k and distilled them into a core rule.
Not so much "gotcha" not because at least you'll see them coming. But in particular is my concern about melee, it seems actually approaching and engaging someone will be excessively different unless there's big changes in places we haven't seen.

I don't like Dreadnoughts moving to Monstrous Creatures either.
The MC rules are really a poor fit for them, I think the walker rules worked will.
It also suggests to me that whoever was writing this new edition didn't understand the system and was reacting to feedback without actually knowing what it meant.

Beyond that it's hard to say much of anything, we just haven't seen anything.
It's good that a lot of other stuff appears to be staying, such as morale and vehicle rules.
I like that they're tightening up the USRs, and the addition of scaling values, such as Shrouded (X) is great as it gives them more flexibility whilst reducing the number of rules they need.
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The reaction system seriously concerns me.
We've seen the core rules and a few of the "unique" ones - and they look bad imo.
It seems like they've taken all the worst "gotcha" strategems in 40k and distilled them into a core rule.
Not so much "gotcha" not because at least you'll see them coming. But in particular is my concern about melee, it seems actually approaching and engaging someone will be excessively different unless there's big changes in places we haven't seen.

I don't like Dreadnoughts moving to Monstrous Creatures either.
The MC rules are really a poor fit for them, I think the walker rules worked will.
It also suggests to me that whoever was writing this new edition didn't understand the system and was reacting to feedback without actually knowing what it meant.

Beyond that it's hard to say much of anything, we just haven't seen anything.
It's good that a lot of other stuff appears to be staying, such as morale and vehicle rules.
I like that they're tightening up the USRs, and the addition of scaling values, such as Shrouded (X) is great as it gives them more flexibility whilst reducing the number of rules they need.

I have nothing to add to that, it's exactly what I think.
I wish we could have stayed a year or two more with tht current rulesets, but yeah, I mainly hope we'll be able to use all the zone mortalis, campaigns etc rules that are already there

   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






I'm mostly invested in HH 2.0 for the new miniatures of Rogue Trader era Space Marines and their vehicles, but also know that I will have to become permanently invested in the system when Firstborn marines get legended from 40K (if that ever happens..).

From what I have seen, some of the changes in the rules feel like they are addressing old niggls from 7th ed 40K more than from HH 1.0, but I'm not really qualified to make an informed opinion ATM, having never played HH.

I actually want to see the models rescaled. ATM firstborn Marine proportions look bad, so any improvement on the proportions is welcome in my book. Nobody is forced to buy the new models if they'd rather keep on playing with what they already have.

+++ Thought for the Day: Forget The Narrative — Slaanesh demands more plastic! +++ 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

Takled with my main 30K friend and he's kinda meh on the new edition rumors. So we'll either play them or not. Doesn't matter that much to me I just want some new plastic tanks.

I'd rather have something like Apocalypse 30K edition rules for big games instead. we play a 5000 point minimum normally and team games.

Some of the rumors do sound interesting. I like chain bayonets.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






 tauist wrote:
I'm mostly invested in HH 2.0 for the new miniatures of Rogue Trader era Space Marines and their vehicles, but also know that I will have to become permanently invested in the system when Firstborn marines get legended from 40K (if that ever happens..).

From what I have seen, some of the changes in the rules feel like they are addressing old niggls from 7th ed 40K more than from HH 1.0, but I'm not really qualified to make an informed opinion ATM, having never played HH.

I actually want to see the models rescaled. ATM firstborn Marine proportions look bad, so any improvement on the proportions is welcome in my book. Nobody is forced to buy the new models if they'd rather keep on playing with what they already have.


I'm afraid scale creep is a non-starter for me. One cannot simply keep rewarding bad behavior and there are plenty of the old kits still floating around I simply don't need to jump on the bandwagon. I can't comment on the rules too much since I too have never actually played HH and it's been a long time indeed since I played 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
The reaction system seriously concerns me.
We've seen the core rules and a few of the "unique" ones - and they look bad imo.
It seems like they've taken all the worst "gotcha" strategems in 40k and distilled them into a core rule.
Not so much "gotcha" not because at least you'll see them coming. But in particular is my concern about melee, it seems actually approaching and engaging someone will be excessively different unless there's big changes in places we haven't seen.

I don't like Dreadnoughts moving to Monstrous Creatures either.
The MC rules are really a poor fit for them, I think the walker rules worked will.
It also suggests to me that whoever was writing this new edition didn't understand the system and was reacting to feedback without actually knowing what it meant.

Beyond that it's hard to say much of anything, we just haven't seen anything.
It's good that a lot of other stuff appears to be staying, such as morale and vehicle rules.
I like that they're tightening up the USRs, and the addition of scaling values, such as Shrouded (X) is great as it gives them more flexibility whilst reducing the number of rules they need.


Ugh, yeah the switch from AV and hull points is not going to sit well with me either. I'm also not a huge fan of stratagems so any move in tht direction will garner some ire from me as well. Oh well, let's hope it's not all doom and gloom and if so, well I have a pdf and and a printer for the expensive FW books and I'm sure I can find a 7th ed rulebook somewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 14:44:38


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






HH has its own rulebook that's different from 7th Ed.
The rumours thus far though do not inspire hope for a resurgent HH in a positive manner. I worry it will drag a lot of the worst parts of the 40k competitive community in and lose the narrative aspect that makes it such a good setting and game.
   
Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

Not counting the different army composition stuff, the HH rulebook made all of two changes to the 7E rules. Allowing everybody to use grenades in assault and one other change I can't even remember. If there were more than that, they were still so negligible I can't remember what they were.
It still had all of the problems inherent to 7th, and 6th before that, and 5th before that, and so on.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Not counting the different army composition stuff, the HH rulebook made all of two changes to the 7E rules. Allowing everybody to use grenades in assault and one other change I can't even remember. If there were more than that, they were still so negligible I can't remember what they were.
It still had all of the problems inherent to 7th, and 6th before that, and 5th before that, and so on.


iI changed the way the invisibility psychic power worked. ifir it is less abusive in HH than in core 7th.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

HH toned down the worst excesses of 7th.

It removed formations and replaced them with the much more restrictive Rites of War with actual downsides to boot.

It toned down Grav into Graviton, less effective against vehicles and a lot less vs infantry, making it not an obvious "like plasma but super"

It removed the stupid invisiblity psychic power.

It did, of course, inherit a lot of problems.
The slow and unwieldy IgoUgo system as been addressed by Reactions, jury's still out on better or for worse.

The overall poor psychic system seems to have been removed and reverted back to something similar to the 5th edition system - great.

From what we've seen it looks like that's pretty much it. All the other major trippings are there, plus or minus some little things.
   
Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

Formations were not an inherent part of 7th, they were part of the codexes' individual army construction rules, just like Rites of War were for HH. I did say "not counting army composition stuff".
Graviton was already a part of HH when it came out during 6th and is it's own weapon entirely separate from 40k grav.

I realize I'm not going to convince anybody of anything. I've been playing 40k for 25 years, so I've seen all the changes as they've happened in real time (apart from 1e to 2e). GW has always been bad at writing rules for 40k, and hasn't written a good ruleset yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 18:10:09


"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Sure, if you want to define all of 7th's flaws as not a part of 7th than HH really didn't change much of anything.

You don't need to convince me, I wholly agree that GW is bad at writing rules for 40k! I would be surprised if this new HH ruleset is level with my favourites like Starwars Legion or Blood Red Skies.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to have a little bit of hope that they improve things, just a little bit.
*Although from what I've seen I am erring to the side of having been disappointed (albeit not surprised), sadly

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 18:22:40


 
   
Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






Sad that we're all sitting here hoping for not awful rules isn't it?

Such is the life of a GW hobbyist. Really makes you want to slow down and enjoy the collection and modelling aspect of the hobby when you know for a fact the most important thing is for your toys to look cool.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Hairesy wrote:
 tauist wrote:
I'm mostly invested in HH 2.0 for the new miniatures of Rogue Trader era Space Marines and their vehicles, but also know that I will have to become permanently invested in the system when Firstborn marines get legended from 40K (if that ever happens..).

From what I have seen, some of the changes in the rules feel like they are addressing old niggls from 7th ed 40K more than from HH 1.0, but I'm not really qualified to make an informed opinion ATM, having never played HH.

I actually want to see the models rescaled. ATM firstborn Marine proportions look bad, so any improvement on the proportions is welcome in my book. Nobody is forced to buy the new models if they'd rather keep on playing with what they already have.


I'm afraid scale creep is a non-starter for me. One cannot simply keep rewarding bad behavior and there are plenty of the old kits still floating around I simply don't need to jump on the bandwagon. I can't comment on the rules too much since I too have never actually played HH and it's been a long time indeed since I played 7th.

...


I don't see it as bad behaviour myself. I have wanted the coolest possible looking beakie army since the days of RTB-01 plastic kit. The earlier iterations have been getting gradually better, almost to the point of perfection, but the lanky heroic scale has long been the biggest aesthetic holdback. Now this issue is finally being addressed. I think this will be great for anyone into firstborn marines, regardless of favourite armour mark.

I don't see this as a problem for a game such as HH, where the models and units have long been already established. One can easily keep on using the existing infantry and combine it with the new plastic vehicles. I do not foresee any glaring issue of scale mismatch when combining old infantry and new vehicles. If you do not fancy the new scale, you can just vote with your wallet and keep using what you already have collected, just adding the kits that you want.

One person's "they are changing the scale, making my old stuff look incompatible, I hate that!" is anothers "I really applaud GW for revisiting and subtly tweaking their classic miniature designs! I love that!"

+++ Thought for the Day: Forget The Narrative — Slaanesh demands more plastic! +++ 
   
Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






Honestly Tauist I've never really had a problem with the old sculpts, at least since the last Tac Squad update anyway. I glue my arms on a bit higher up and call it a day. It's not so much that I'm against making the models look better, but then again beauty is in the eyestalk of the Beholder, but I just hate having my old models invalidated by looking too out of place. Ultimately it won't effect me a lot, I'll either take what I want or stick to the older stuff. Perhaps ten years ago this would have been more of an issue but now I feel like a lot of this type of talk is just a fun way to while away the hours. I will say that they could tweak the models without scaling up though. It's nothing to make Marine arms just a tad shorter.

I mean, I'll probably get a few things just to paint either way. I absolutely detest Primaris but I do enjoy some of the sculpts and look forward to painting them for my wife. Whether that's sheer optimism at having a SO who actually plays board games or not is another matter however.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I want to be hopeful, but I'm also a realist. On one hand I don't particularly mind moving Dreadnaughts to Monstrous Creatures from a rules-convenience standpoint, since their armor facings and weapon facings have never mattered that much by comparison to those of non-walker vehicles, since it gets rid of a type that requires a lot of edge-case call-outs in the rules, and since I don't think they're that thematically different from all the Mechanicum cortex-bot MCs, but on the other hand I, like many people in this thread, fear that this is the thin end of the wedge and they're going to slowly move us over to 9th-standard rules. I don't know if I'm worried about reactions or not; if they're trying to take their cue from stratagems I'm worried, if they're trying to take their cue from Bolt Action and just not considering the impact of taking a system built for alternating activations and porting it wholesale into discrete turns I'm less worried because at least their heart's in the right place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Not counting the different army composition stuff, the HH rulebook made all of two changes to the 7E rules. Allowing everybody to use grenades in assault and one other change I can't even remember. If there were more than that, they were still so negligible I can't remember what they were.
It still had all of the problems inherent to 7th, and 6th before that, and 5th before that, and so on.


The vast majority of the problems of every edition of 40k have been in the army books. Changes to the core rules are often pretty straightforward and reasonable, it's the fact that the army books don't keep up that causes problems. (Flyers: Buffed and made cheaper from their FW stats when they were introduced in 5th as skimmers, never corrected when they turned them back into flyers; 30k's flyers are a lot more in line with the 3e/4e-vintage FW stats. Psykers: Completely reasonable if you're in a one-detachment environment where they can't be easily spammed, except for a couple of loopholes with Biomancy powers not having text for Brotherhood of Psykers use in them. Relics: Permission-use campaign-only in 30k. Superheavies: One per detachment plus the 25% rule keep them much more under control. Hull Points: GW needed to back off on the mid-power spam instead of leaning into it, which they didn't, and give AV/HP buffs to some tanks, which they didn't; 30k's HP/tanks work a lot better. Etc.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 21:02:35


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Not counting the different army composition stuff, the HH rulebook made all of two changes to the 7E rules. Allowing everybody to use grenades in assault and one other change I can't even remember. If there were more than that, they were still so negligible I can't remember what they were.
It still had all of the problems inherent to 7th, and 6th before that, and 5th before that, and so on.


Invisibility spell got changed as well I think

But problems were not with core rules but with codexes. Which HH doesn't share.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/16 08:20:59


2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

The legion rules re shuffle has hit some pretty hard, some of the USRs changing are good and the dropping of others is also good, the change from AV to T for dreads is also a good thing since ever since 3rd Dreds have just been bad monstrous creatures, the reaction system I am not a fan of but willing to wait and see what they do with it.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Have Dreads been "bad monstrous creatures" or have MCs been "weirdly good walkers".
IMO Monstrous Creature rules are the problem. - they can soak up repeated impacts from AT guns far in excess of vehicles. On top of that they get a variety of special rules and buffs, notably Smash, just for existing.

Instead of actually fixing the jank that is Monstrous Creatures, they've just made Dreads MCs.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em I guess.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





I'm cautiously optimistic, but just barely in the optimistic camp. I trust FW more than GW to not go all out and inflate the Reaction system with 'reaction creep' as the edition goes on the way Stratagems completely dominated the way 40k is played with GOTCHA moments. I expect at launch they'll work out okay, but the problems might start to show in the long term if they can't resist themselves adding more and more increasingly broken/gamey Reactions that come to dominate how it's played.

Dreadnoughts becoming MCs I am not a fan of, when most MCs should've become walkers rather than the other way around. Hopefully the MC rules (which I don't think have been leaked yet?) will put my mind at ease.

Psychic phase being spread out across the others is a change a lot of people wanted and whilst I never had an issue with PP being it's own thing the current implementation was obviously a clunky beast that desperately needed changing and only got away with it's shoddy state because only two legions and Daemons really had any stake in it. It does at least show they seemed to be listening to the (albeit obvious) issues people had with it.

I think I'm being uncharacteristically hopeful mainly because it's not moving to 9th, but also has substantial enough changes that it's not just a quick shrug over the existing rules (which definitely have a lot of issues) and stamping "new edition" on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/16 12:35:31


 
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

But .. psychic phase used to be spread across the others phases. Are we just going back to 5th ? That's kinda weird.
But I'm more surprised they did it alone, on their own, without having a 30k survey or whatever

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 kirotheavenger wrote:
Have Dreads been "bad monstrous creatures" or have MCs been "weirdly good walkers".
IMO Monstrous Creature rules are the problem. - they can soak up repeated impacts from AT guns far in excess of vehicles. On top of that they get a variety of special rules and buffs, notably Smash, just for existing.

Instead of actually fixing the jank that is Monstrous Creatures, they've just made Dreads MCs.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em I guess.


Most of the USRs on MCs aren't that weird; Fearless is a thing walkers had anyway, for instance, by virtue of being vehicles in that part of their rules and not being subject to morale. Smash is the only one that ever particularly bugged me, and that'd be addressed quite well by just making it 6e Smash (leave in the option for the double-S attack, take out "always AP2"), which would also make choice of melee weapons on Cybernetica bots matter more.

As to the durability question I think the problem was that GW didn't really get MC stats. Compare a 7e Riptide (T6, 6W, 2+/5++ with the option to boost to a 3++, access to a FNP upgrade, ~200-220pts depending on loadout) to a Thanatar (T8, 4W, 2+/5++, 6++ in melee, can be repaired, 275-300pts depending on loadout). The Riptide can soak an incredible amount of anti-tank fire because it's got the 6W and you can only take one off at a time, and because the 3++ lets it disregard a lot of incoming fire, so you need high-volume AP2 like grav-guns to do anything to it. The Thanatar is protected far more by its Toughness against lower-power anti-heavy-infantry type guns like plasma, but it's quite a lot squishier against the kind of actual anti-tank (melta, lascannons, that sort of thing) that didn't see a lot of play in 7th because it didn't have a lot of good targets, because it doesn't have that 3++ to fall back on, or the FNP, and only has 4W. I'm a little concerned by the leaked Contemptor's 6W, but if they resist the temptation to give it a 2+ armor save I think it'll probably be all right.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






So I've just read up the reaction rules, yuck. More pointless rules bloat in an attempt to fabricate novelty. Oh well, it's not like I was excited about new HH. And those Beakies look to be Primaris sized too. Such a shame.
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

Do you think that if some events are being hold with the current rulesets, there will be attendance ? Could be interesting, as Horus Heresy is more expensive and with a smaller, less divided player base, maybe they are less willing to switch to a downgraded ruleset

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 godardc wrote:
Do you think that if some events are being hold with the current rulesets, there will be attendance ? Could be interesting, as Horus Heresy is more expensive and with a smaller, less divided player base, maybe they are less willing to switch to a downgraded ruleset


I'm keeping my old rulebooks for that very purpose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't want to start a flame war here with this sentiment, but it seems as though HH players are more open to playing the, soon to be old but now current, rules if the new ones don't pan out.

At minimum, I'll have both sets so I can stay flexible, and with multiple armies (Seriously, I can't stop finding deals on eBay for Mk III and IV Marines!), I can teach new people how to play either ruleset.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Reactions sounds like command abilities AOS got and it didn't break the game there to move d6" after enemy move etc. Unleash hell was somewhat of a problem with certain units but those got some nerfs anyway and range from 9" to 6" actually nerfed it quite a bit. We are down to it not being issue except with some specific units(which are problematic more of due to other issues).

Wouldn't go all doom and gloom over those.

2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 godardc wrote:
But .. psychic phase used to be spread across the others phases. Are we just going back to 5th ? That's kinda weird.
weired, but in a good way
and by looking at how similar the Action/Reaction system is to what was around as houserules during 5th to improve the gameplay, it makes sense

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Hairesy wrote:
So I've just read up the reaction rules, yuck. More pointless rules bloat in an attempt to fabricate novelty. Oh well, it's not like I was excited about new HH. And those Beakies look to be Primaris sized too. Such a shame.


The NuBeakies are not Primaris sized, they just have longer thighs than the old ones. So slightly taller, but nothing ridiculous.

Compare this guy to the older Praetor sculpts and you'll get the idea

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-FI/sons-of-horus-legion-praetor-2021


+++ Thought for the Day: Forget The Narrative — Slaanesh demands more plastic! +++ 
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

Reactions can be ok, just to break up the half hour one player stands around rolling saves.

8th/9th have gone crazy with auras, strategims, unit special rules, and random unique objectives to the point that I feel like you are really playing a children's card game with some ancillary models on the table. Every primaris unit has a host of special rules. The damage output has gotten so ridiculous that they have to put extra rules in to prevent single turn eliminations of huge knights and other big models.

Lets not go there for the HH series.

   
 
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