Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2022/03/29 23:49:08
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Pots vs dropper bottles is just personal preference, one isn’t better than the other. I tend to prefer pots but droppers for airbrush paints would be great.
It’s just like people saying a certain brand is better or worse then GW paints. It’s bull, some paints are better from some brands some are worse. I am yet to find a better red than Mephiston red, but metallics, there a bunch of other people doing amazing ones. Nothing is black and white, expect black and white!
2022/03/30 09:55:25
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
NAVARRO wrote: I have hundreds of different paints majority is Vallejos and GW's.
GW dry inside the pots so anyone worried about waste of a few drops on a dropper will have 100% of the paint dried out on pots.
Either way I have to replace GWs several times while my Vallejos still as good as new.
For that alone and not talking about prices or other pros and cons I prefer dropper.
I have had paint spoil in dropper bottles and not had huge issues with drying up from pots, clogging up from droppers is a bigger issue than drying out. It’s very annoying when you only want a small brush full of paint and your dropper bottle shirts out a huge blob onto your pallet.
That said, I don’t want Vallejo to switch to pots or gw to switch to droppers. I can live with either way round but it’s not a deal breaker, I will still buy the best paint for the job I am doing, who ever makes it and what ever pot it comes in.
2022/03/30 22:32:41
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
People are arguing about personal preference and taste. There is no right and wrong here. Pots, dropper bottles, what ever. It’s the paint that counts.
If I had to choose a container for all paints it would be the dropper bottles with a flip lid, like Kimera paints use. All the benefits of both. But they get bunked up a treat so still not perfect.
2022/03/31 16:42:19
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
I like a pot I can open one handed, dislike the Vallejo style droppers for that and I lose the lids, and the holes get bunged up. Those revel ones look interesting but in. Bonkers and unnecessary but cool. Are the paints any good!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamereth wrote: As a heaven that often paints straight from the pot I hope they don’t.
I can understand the air range swapping but for their target audience pots make more sense. Little Timmy painting his first model isn’t using a wet pallet!
But he could use a pallet, like a plate or old tile or bit of plastic card or even a piece of baking parchment. Could and should.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/31 16:45:06
2022/04/01 00:50:28
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Yiu don’t have to follow the step by step, but if everyone in every tutorial is using a pallet then you should as well, like said above, paint, water pot, brush, pallet…..all basics.
2022/04/04 15:40:08
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
So unless you are using a brand that is “straight from the pot” then no, you are doing it wrong. Even if you are new. If you take anything from a tutorial, it should be use a pallet. If you are starting out, thinning your paint and using a pallet should be lesson number one. It looks better and is easier to paint with.
As for using paints from the pot on smaller models, 10mm. I would thin less and want a thicker consistency for smaller models to aid control to an extent.
2022/04/05 11:11:57
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
God forbid someone use something in the way it wasn't designed to be used!
That's by far the most convincing reason I've heard so far. </sarcasm>
I'd also contend that most mini paints are prethinned to the point where they're largely fine being used unthinned, though I'm not going to try and get in the head of the designer to figure out exactly what they were thinking when they designed them, but I assume it was to get them in the ballpark of the correct consistency out of the pot. In fact it's a complaint I've heard a few times over the years, that many hobby paints are too thin out of the pot and that makes them hard to use in techniques that prefer thicker paint. If we're talking about artists acrylics, yeah, they have a paste-like consistency and need to be thinned in order to flow.
Andykp wrote: So unless you are using a brand that is “straight from the pot” then no, you are doing it wrong. Even if you are new. If you take anything from a tutorial, it should be use a pallet. If you are starting out, thinning your paint and using a pallet should be lesson number one. It looks better and is easier to paint with.
And what if you're experienced and still do it
New painters are the ones I would tell to use a palette because it makes it easier to learn how to paint. But there's blokes who have been painting for decades and are perfectly happy with the results they are getting that paint from the pot.
Maybe I've missed it, but I'm still yet to see an actual compelling reason why someone shouldn't paint from the pot if it aligns with their painting style. "It wasn't designed to be used that way!", "That's how it's done in the tutorials!" and "It's wrong!" are not compelling reasons. "Paint should be thinned" is a more compelling reason, but even that is far from a hard and fast rule and there's plenty of times painting unthinned works perfectly fine.
I'm really not sure why people are being so ardent about needing to use a palette when they also can't come up with good reasons, or perhaps are so shallow in their thinking that they genuinely believe "because it was done that way in tutorials" is actually a good reason.
I must admit I was being a bit arsey last night and came over more militant than I am really, I am ardent about using a pallet because it is, easier, produces better results, allows more control over consistency of paint, volume of colour, effect of the paint in the model. By using straight from the pot or bottle, you lose any control over the properties of the paint bed you are basically colouring in, but you are also making life harder for your self as the paint flows less well and and is harder to control and produces less pleasing results. If you just want to colour your models in, you are still better off thinning your paints.
As the paints are designed to be thinned, what is a reason not to thin them? Saying it suits your style is fine but very few painters who don’t thin their paints have a style they have given any thought to, or have much understand of how they are manipulating the properties of their paints bumpy using them neat. They are just being lazy, but actually making life harder for them selves.
I had a friend who would not use a pallet but struggled to paint, as soon as I got him thinning his paints he was so much happier, he admitted that the paint went on easier and everything he found frustrating about painting was eased.
2022/04/05 13:31:10
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: I must admit I was being a bit arsey last night and came over more militant than I am really, I am ardent about using a pallet because it is, easier, produces better results, allows more control over consistency of paint, volume of colour, effect of the paint in the model.
Yeah I was probably overly snarky with my reply, sorry.
By using straight from the pot or bottle, you lose any control over the properties of the paint bed you are basically colouring in, but you are also making life harder for your self as the paint flows less well and and is harder to control and produces less pleasing results. If you just want to colour your models in, you are still better off thinning your paints.
Painting straight from the pot the idea (at least when I do it) is to keep the brush wet, so if the paint is starting to flow poorly you give the brush a swirl in the water before going back to the pot.
As the paints are designed to be thinned, what is a reason not to thin them? Saying it suits your style is fine but very few painters who don’t thin their paints have a style they have given any thought to, or have much understand of how they are manipulating the properties of their paints bumpy using them neat. They are just being lazy, but actually making life harder for them selves.
Speed is the primary reason, and convenience in needing one less thing on your desk when painting.
The way I see painting miniatures for wargaming, it's just a balance between time and quality. When many years ago I timed myself painting to see where I was spending my time I was really surprised because little of my time was actually spent applying paint to model, it was doing all the other stuff. Stuff like opening and closing pots, removing the paint from the pot, playing around on my palette to get the consistency just right, getting the brush and model at the right angle to apply the paint smoothly, a few seconds later when the paint on my palette starts drying and I have to revive it with more water and play around getting it back to the right consistency.
Learning that if I'm just trying to block in a colour, compromising my usual perfectionism to let me lay down paint faster in order to spend more time on other things that had a bigger impact on quality could, in some circumstances, be the better way to go.
I had a friend who would not use a pallet but struggled to paint, as soon as I got him thinning his paints he was so much happier, he admitted that the paint went on easier and everything he found frustrating about painting was eased.
Teaching someone how to initially paint I think it's a good idea to teach them to play with consistency, but once they know what they're doing and make the logical choice to either keep thinning or to go back to painting from the pot I don't really see anything wrong with that.
Perhaps my personal experience is a bit warped, because I started painting wargaming models when I was 10 or 11-ish but I had been painting scale aircraft models with enamels since I was 6-ish so by the time I got my first miniatures, a box of 5th edition Bretonnian Archers, I didn't have a problem laying down a smooth coat of paint even though those models were painted half with enamels and half with acrylics. Try painting the wing of a 1/32 aircraft with a small round brush and you'll learn the meaning of bumpiness Rather my struggle was learning how to highlight, shade, use washes (inks back in the day) and something I still don't know how to do, pick colours that work together
Hell, if someone knows how to paint the right colours at the right value in the right areas but does it splotchy with unthinned paint and a worn out brush, IMO that will look infinitely better than someone who lays down perfectly smooth coats of colours that don't work in the wrong areas. It's why some art courses teach value first, colour second, application methods third (especially when painting life-like). Us miniature painters often get too bogged down in techniques and tricks.
Speed, painting with properly thinned paints is actually quicker because it takes only a second to thin the paint, especially if you just want to apply it and get an even coat, but thinned paint goes on better, flows around detail better. So speeds up the actual application it’s a false economy.
As for your point around not spending enough time actually painting, for me prepping your paints is part of the process but that’s preference I suppose. And what you want as the end result. For me the process is the point, I enjoy all aspects of painting and it is the vast majority of my hobby time, much more than playing sadly.
I think a lot of people who don’t enjoy painting or see it as a means to an end would enjoy it a lot more if they were shown how to make it easier to do and easier to get better results. Soon many would stop looking at is as throwing some paint on gaming pieces and an essential and enjoyable part of the hobby.
I personally have progressed from the GW base/shade/highlight method to playing with airbrushes, oils, pigments and inks, thinking about light and volume and contras, getting into colour theory and using the properties of the paints to get the results I want, and I am not artistic at all but a huge aspect of the hobby has opened up to me and it literally all started with thinning my paints, that’s was the first step in that journey.
PS, my entry in to painting was the same as yours, model planes and enamels then miniatures and acrylics. Just a few years earlier possibly, 1989/90 was when I Started on minis.
2022/04/05 14:53:47
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: I must admit I was being a bit arsey last night and came over more militant than I am really, I am ardent about using a pallet because it is, easier, produces better results, allows more control over consistency of paint, volume of colour, effect of the paint in the model.
Yeah I was probably overly snarky with my reply, sorry.
By using straight from the pot or bottle, you lose any control over the properties of the paint bed you are basically colouring in, but you are also making life harder for your self as the paint flows less well and and is harder to control and produces less pleasing results. If you just want to colour your models in, you are still better off thinning your paints.
Painting straight from the pot the idea (at least when I do it) is to keep the brush wet, so if the paint is starting to flow poorly you give the brush a swirl in the water before going back to the pot.
As the paints are designed to be thinned, what is a reason not to thin them? Saying it suits your style is fine but very few painters who don’t thin their paints have a style they have given any thought to, or have much understand of how they are manipulating the properties of their paints bumpy using them neat. They are just being lazy, but actually making life harder for them selves.
Speed is the primary reason, and convenience in needing one less thing on your desk when painting.
The way I see painting miniatures for wargaming, it's just a balance between time and quality. When many years ago I timed myself painting to see where I was spending my time I was really surprised because little of my time was actually spent applying paint to model, it was doing all the other stuff. Stuff like opening and closing pots, removing the paint from the pot, playing around on my palette to get the consistency just right, getting the brush and model at the right angle to apply the paint smoothly, a few seconds later when the paint on my palette starts drying and I have to revive it with more water and play around getting it back to the right consistency.
Learning that if I'm just trying to block in a colour, compromising my usual perfectionism to let me lay down paint faster in order to spend more time on other things that had a bigger impact on quality could, in some circumstances, be the better way to go.
I had a friend who would not use a pallet but struggled to paint, as soon as I got him thinning his paints he was so much happier, he admitted that the paint went on easier and everything he found frustrating about painting was eased.
Teaching someone how to initially paint I think it's a good idea to teach them to play with consistency, but once they know what they're doing and make the logical choice to either keep thinning or to go back to painting from the pot I don't really see anything wrong with that.
Perhaps my personal experience is a bit warped, because I started painting wargaming models when I was 10 or 11-ish but I had been painting scale aircraft models with enamels since I was 6-ish so by the time I got my first miniatures, a box of 5th edition Bretonnian Archers, I didn't have a problem laying down a smooth coat of paint even though those models were painted half with enamels and half with acrylics. Try painting the wing of a 1/32 aircraft with a small round brush and you'll learn the meaning of bumpiness Rather my struggle was learning how to highlight, shade, use washes (inks back in the day) and something I still don't know how to do, pick colours that work together
Hell, if someone knows how to paint the right colours at the right value in the right areas but does it splotchy with unthinned paint and a worn out brush, IMO that will look infinitely better than someone who lays down perfectly smooth coats of colours that don't work in the wrong areas. It's why some art courses teach value first, colour second, application methods third (especially when painting life-like). Us miniature painters often get too bogged down in techniques and tricks.
You said you did that mage with oils, that’s my new thing I’m learning with, used to use them just for weathering and a wash here and there. Just learning now to use them for highlights and and general painting, they are fantastic. So much fun, such good results and so forgiving. My new advice to beginner painters is, try oils! They’ve blown my mind and opened up so many opportunities. Scale modelling is great but not sure I have the attention to detail that you need. Love the process and admire the skills.
2022/04/05 15:00:25
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Now we have reached a consensus on droppers vs pots (there is no consensus) how do we all feel about the idea of tubes? I am all for it, not used thee but intrigued.
2022/04/05 16:37:05
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
These paints are very thick, like oil paint consistency, much thinner and tubes would be self defeating, it would just pour out. I am planning on giving these a try soon as.
2022/04/06 12:55:48
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: Now we have reached a consensus on droppers vs pots (there is no consensus) how do we all feel about the idea of tubes? I am all for it, not used thee but intrigued.
I like the idea but aren't good ones horribly expensive since they need a very high pigment density to stay opaque-ish when thinned?
One of the pros I think is some techniques favour a thick paint, like wet blending, or intentionally adding texture to a model (e.g. cross hatching or dotting paint on to create a textured fabric or leather).
Oguhmek wrote: Tubes work for oil paint because it's thick and you often thin it on the palette with turpentine/oil anyway.
Depending on your technique you don't always even use a palette - some artist squeeze the paint out directly on the canvas and use a spatula to paint.
Wouldn't try this on a miniature though.
Oils can be applied to models in a very thick unthinned coat if you want. You just clag it on, then when you come back with your blending brush you "stab" at the paint to blend it, which also smooths it out and makes it conform to the surface.
I've never attempted doing the same with super thick (like heavy body type thick) acrylics, the fast drying time I imagine would make it difficult to do, but I have had luck applying moderately thick acrylics and using a similar stabbing motion as I use with oils.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: You said you did that mage with oils, that’s my new thing I’m learning with, used to use them just for weathering and a wash here and there. Just learning now to use them for highlights and and general painting, they are fantastic. So much fun, such good results and so forgiving. My new advice to beginner painters is, try oils! They’ve blown my mind and opened up so many opportunities. Scale modelling is great but not sure I have the attention to detail that you need. Love the process and admire the skills.
Using oils definitely boosted the quality of my display models because it's much easier to start with a value sketch without worrying about blending, then blend it as desired afterwards.
I remember one YouTuber saying "blending is one of the best things you can do to improve painting quality" (paraphrased) and another YouTuber saying "blending is secondary to a good value sketch", I tend to agree with the latter.
Painting with acrylics I always find what I picture it my head isn't what appears on the model, I always overdo the shades, or overdo the highlights, or not have enough of my midtone. Using oils kind of solved that struggle for me.
Those scale 75 paints are heavy in pigment but not that expensive, compared to gw or Vallejo.
Value Sketches is the other thing that has moved my painting in in recent months, changed entirely how I think about light interacting with the model. I love the idea of placing the model in an environment and seeing how the light would impact the colour choices and saturations etc. it’s lead me into deeper colour theory (not my strong suit at all) and then using the best medium to get the volumes you want. Marco frissoni started it for me, just happened across a couple of his videos and now I’m fully down the rabbit hole.
