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Just did a simple Boyz - Kroot comparison, and I REALLLLLLY can't see why the boyz cost 9 point a pop while the kroot are 6 a piece.
And the new orky T5 doesn't do what it was supposed to do ( I guess ) due to the s**tton of S5 shooting.

So can someone elaborate, because I don't see any reason to take boyz anymore?

Unfamiliar with Ork dex.

Do boys have a lot of Clan/ Strat/ Aura buffs? Because as I understand it, Kroot only qualify for some of the buffs which would be available to other Tau troop units. I think there's also only a single Sept which can grant them access to additional buffs.

If so, that might have something to do with relative points costs. But without access to either dex, I can't run the numbers.

PenitentJake wrote:
Unfamiliar with Ork dex.

Do boys have a lot of Clan/ Strat/ Aura buffs? Because as I understand it, Kroot only qualify for some of the buffs which would be available to other Tau troop units. I think there's also only a single Sept which can grant them access to additional buffs.

If so, that might have something to do with relative points costs. But without access to either dex, I can't run the numbers.

No, it's straight up that Boyz are less powerful/efficient compared to Kroot boys. This is true throughout the entire codex too.

PenitentJake wrote:
Unfamiliar with Ork dex.

Do boys have a lot of Clan/ Strat/ Aura buffs? Because as I understand it, Kroot only qualify for some of the buffs which would be available to other Tau troop units. I think there's also only a single Sept which can grant them access to additional buffs.

If so, that might have something to do with relative points costs. But without access to either dex, I can't run the numbers.

They have a thousand and one sources of +1 to-hit in melee.
And that's about it.

Edit: Okay, they also have some stuff like Goffs for Exploding 6s in melee (similar in effect to +1 to-hit) and bonus Strength on the charge.

But not nearly as much as they used to have.

Buffs to melee, when you struggle to get in to melee may as well not exist.

We had a 13 page thread on this that got locked because people got very upset. TL/DR Kroot are the most efficient 6 points in the game. Boyz are mediocre at best.

To go a bit further. Kroot are potentially bonkers and there's almost certainly a competitive mass Kroot build out there that just doesn't see the light of day because buffed up Crisis and Broadsides are more efficient. So why bother? It may be interesting if GW ever decide to do something about the current meta.

Boyz are generally considered to be bad the end, full stop. I would be interested to see how 10-12 squads of 10 Boyz build would work (focusing on playing the mission etc) - but barring applying a lot of emotional blackmail to Semper or players in the Ork thread I'm not sure how we'd get meaningful results.

And in practice the result will probably just be "well it just dies to the meta factions right now" - which, to be fair, goes for most things in the game.

ThulsaDoom wrote:
Just did a simple Boyz - Kroot comparison, and I REALLLLLLY can't see why the boyz cost 9 point a pop while the kroot are 6 a piece.
And the new orky T5 doesn't do what it was supposed to do ( I guess ) due to the s**tton of S5 shooting.

So can someone elaborate, because I don't see any reason to take boyz anymore?

Are you secretly SemperMortis?

 JNAProductions wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Unfamiliar with Ork dex.

Do boys have a lot of Clan/ Strat/ Aura buffs? Because as I understand it, Kroot only qualify for some of the buffs which would be available to other Tau troop units. I think there's also only a single Sept which can grant them access to additional buffs.

If so, that might have something to do with relative points costs. But without access to either dex, I can't run the numbers.

They have a thousand and one sources of +1 to-hit in melee.
And that's about it.

Edit: Okay, they also have some stuff like Goffs for Exploding 6s in melee (similar in effect to +1 to-hit) and bonus Strength on the charge.

But not nearly as much as they used to have.

They basically have none, I don't understand what you mean with that "thousand". Just a buff for being Goffs (and only Goffs) and the warboss aura. Oh and the trukk boyz shenanigan, although it costs them losing both the klan kultur and the warboss aura.

Dudeface wrote:

ThulsaDoom wrote:
Just did a simple Boyz - Kroot comparison, and I REALLLLLLY can't see why the boyz cost 9 point a pop while the kroot are 6 a piece.
And the new orky T5 doesn't do what it was supposed to do ( I guess ) due to the s**tton of S5 shooting.

So can someone elaborate, because I don't see any reason to take boyz anymore?

Are you secretly SemperMortis?

Apparently one of my spores has matured and begun posting on here as well.

Stompa is probably more viable than boyz at this point tbh.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Stompa is probably more viable than boyz at this point tbh.

I wouldn't go that far. Boyz at least can see some play as Trukk Boyz and even if they couldn't they at least won't explode turn 1 and cost you 600+ points. Granted, with how broken so many armies are right now, its completely plausible that an enemy could kill 600pts of boyz even before accounting for morale.

Tyel wrote:
We had a 13 page thread on this that got locked because people got very upset. TL/DR Kroot are the most efficient 6 points in the game. Boyz are mediocre at best.

To go a bit further. Kroot are potentially bonkers and there's almost certainly a competitive mass Kroot build out there that just doesn't see the light of day because buffed up Crisis and Broadsides are more efficient. So why bother? It may be interesting if GW ever decide to do something about the current meta.

Boyz are generally considered to be bad the end, full stop. I would be interested to see how 10-12 squads of 10 Boyz build would work (focusing on playing the mission etc) - but barring applying a lot of emotional blackmail to Semper or players in the Ork thread I'm not sure how we'd get meaningful results.

And in practice the result will probably just be "well it just dies to the meta factions right now" - which, to be fair, goes for most things in the game.

Tried a list like that, Went death skulls for mass obsec as that made sense for a list looking to not really interact. also had 3x6 stormboyz, 1x6 kommando's and 2xweirdboys. Was a list designed to have access to Banners, Strangehold, Engage on all fronts, R.N.D and the psychic secondaries, maybe even Green tide...

Ran it into a totally untuned CWE list when the Asuryani codex dropped and got tabled on turn 3.

The issue is the list has no teeth and the Ork boys just picked up with a dustpan and brush every turn to indirect fire and he was only running 1x Night spinner and 3 x weapon platforms. The stuff he didn't kill with shooting got nuked in CC

Ork boyz need to be 6-7 points right now to even stand a chance in this meta.

Tyel wrote:
We had a 13 page thread on this that got locked because people got very upset. TL/DR Kroot are the most efficient 6 points in the game. Boyz are mediocre at best.

To go a bit further. Kroot are potentially bonkers and there's almost certainly a competitive mass Kroot build out there that just doesn't see the light of day because buffed up Crisis and Broadsides are more efficient. So why bother? It may be interesting if GW ever decide to do something about the current meta.

Boyz are generally considered to be bad the end, full stop. I would be interested to see how 10-12 squads of 10 Boyz build would work (focusing on playing the mission etc) - but barring applying a lot of emotional blackmail to Semper or players in the Ork thread I'm not sure how we'd get meaningful results.

And in practice the result will probably just be "well it just dies to the meta factions right now" - which, to be fair, goes for most things in the game.

When I run a list like that I usually get my but handed because playing the mission just isn't possible when you get nowhere and your stuff dies super fast. And when you do try to flip objectives, slightly below average dice regularly make you bounce of whatever is camping on that objectives, soo...
It doesn't even take one of the top tier factions to tear them apart, necrons, marines and death guard do that just fine. Against more powerful codices like drukhari or admech you sometimes end up with single digit VP versus near perfect games on their side.

It might work a tad bit better if you made a tide of beastsnagga boyz because of their better stratagems and better baseline, but that is kind of like trying to make tacticals work by running intercessors.

Pickled_egg wrote:


Ork boyz need to be 6-7 points right now to even stand a chance in this meta.

Or to gain the teeth they currently lack. 9ppm for the basic grunt isn't an expensive price, it is for what boyz can provide. I always prefer better stats/synergies that points drop on units that are already cheap, relatively speaking. The game is already massive and more models on average would only add additional issues.

9ppm boyz already existed before, it was 3rd edition. They were only S3 and still T4. And yet they were decent at least.

On the above.

I guess I'm not surprised it didn't work. I'd agree the issue is that units are so slow with terrible M and no advance and charge outside of 1 turn. Would army wide perma advance and charge help perhaps?

Although I've got to say, Boyz have to be Goffs, otherwise yes, they can't fight their way out of a paper bag. Not quite sure why chapter tactics should buff damage output by say 66% into T4, but they do.

Tyel wrote:
I would be interested to see how 10-12 squads of 10 Boyz build would work

 Jidmah wrote:

When I run a list like that

Did Mob Rule even come into play with that many squads on the table? If so, did it matter? I don't have that many Boyz yet and while my heart wants it to make a difference, my head is a bit discouraged.

Tyel wrote:
On the above.

I guess I'm not surprised it didn't work. I'd agree the issue is that units are so slow with terrible M and no advance and charge outside of 1 turn. Would army wide perma advance and charge help perhaps?

Although I've got to say, Boyz have to be Goffs, otherwise yes, they can't fight their way out of a paper bag. Not quite sure why chapter tactics should buff damage output by say 66% into T4, but they do.

No it wouldn't help. Their speed is absolutely an issue, the problem with a CC oriented army is that IT HAS TO BE in charge range no later than turn 2 or you are screwed. And boyz are a CC oriented unit and when spammed it becomes army wide. And with 5' movement and D6 advance you are relying on really good advances to get a turn 2 charge off, and you also have to realize this is even harder when the sheer size of your mobz slows you down by blocking movement. And guess what happens to the lead units? They get mulched turn 1, turn 2 they rinse and repeat and before long you realize you just lost the game without accomplishing much.

As far as 66% increase in dmg. 10 boyz = 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg vs Marines 10 Goff boyz = 30 attacks 25 hits, 16.6 wounds and 8.8dmg, Thats from the exploding 6s and the S5 on the charge, against T6-7 its a lot less increase, against T5 its slightly less, and against T8 its the same as T5. Goffs are honestly the only way to run CC oriented orkz right now, and even they suffer from not being able to do enough dmg.

I was able to get into a GT last week and the two biggest factors I ran into was 1: Orkz die to fast and 2: We don't put out enough dmg fast enough to deal with 9th edition armies.
So many factions have easy access to -1 to hit, -1dmg, +1 armor etc that orkz really can't put out enough dmg to match. I ran a unit of meganobz into a Crusher Stampede Bug, they rolled spectacularly, putting out 15 attacks and 12 wounds. After invuln, -1dmg and the FNP it ended up being only 3dmg.

I did run into a scenario where i finally got to use my mob rule! So since 9th edition Ork codex dropped I have now officially used the new Mob Rule 1 time and it saved 12pts of models. Yep, in the hundred or so games I have played with orkz since 9th dropped I have only been able to use Mob Rule 1 time and it only saved 1 model which was a Kommando worth 12pts.

 Blackie wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:


Ork boyz need to be 6-7 points right now to even stand a chance in this meta.

Or to gain the teeth they currently lack. 9ppm for the basic grunt isn't an expensive price, it is for what boyz can provide. I always prefer better stats/synergies that points drop on units that are already cheap, relatively speaking. The game is already massive and more models on average would only add additional issues.

9ppm boyz already existed before, it was 3rd edition. They were only S3 and still T4. And yet they were decent at least.

I would like to see them hit harder and gain those teeth we are talking about, but I do wonder if it would even help when we exist in a meta where there is a metric ton of S5 or better indirect fire - totally negating our T5.

I had to laugh when the CWE player told me his 30 point Howling banshee exarch had like 10 attacks of something stupid and it wiped half my squad on its own.

The only options I can think of for increasing ork survivability are;
Give the KFF a 5+ all the time and have the strat that burns it out buff that to 4+ (that way you could take a couple of KFF's and overlap the buff)
Decrease the points on Trukks and Battlewagons further to allow for mechanised lists

So I would say the simplest solution is simply to reduce the cost of ork boyz back to 7 pts and see how it goes, even if it does feel utterly inelegant.

Orks should have W2 standard. T5 W2 6+ isn't a statline that is being used and should be their baseline.

Either that or do the crazy thing I suggested with T6 standard.

Pickled_egg wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:


Ork boyz need to be 6-7 points right now to even stand a chance in this meta.

Or to gain the teeth they currently lack. 9ppm for the basic grunt isn't an expensive price, it is for what boyz can provide. I always prefer better stats/synergies that points drop on units that are already cheap, relatively speaking. The game is already massive and more models on average would only add additional issues.

9ppm boyz already existed before, it was 3rd edition. They were only S3 and still T4. And yet they were decent at least.

I would like to see them hit harder and gain those teeth we are talking about, but I do wonder if it would even help when we exist in a meta where there is a metric ton of S5 or better indirect fire - totally negating our T5.

I had to laugh when the CWE player told me his 30 point Howling banshee exarch had like 10 attacks of something stupid and it wiped half my squad on its own.

The only options I can think of for increasing ork survivability are;
Give the KFF a 5+ all the time and have the strat that burns it out buff that to 4+ (that way you could take a couple of KFF's and overlap the buff)
Decrease the points on Trukks and Battlewagons further to allow for mechanised lists

So I would say the simplest solution is simply to reduce the cost of ork boyz back to 7 pts and see how it goes, even if it does feel utterly inelegant.

Clearly based off of the nerf to the KFF GE doesn't agree, and doesn't think orks should be competitive.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Orks should have W2 standard. T5 W2 6+ isn't a statline that is being used and should be their baseline.

Either that or do the crazy thing I suggested with T6 standard.

Since I was spot on in my prediction that GW would go to T5 for orkz, and was likewise completely correct that they would massively over correct and make them less competitive than ever before, I would now like to go on official record again and state that if GW did either of these things orkz would be hot garbage. At that point GW would probably make them 15-16ppm and feel justified in removing something else from them.

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Orks should have W2 standard. T5 W2 6+ isn't a statline that is being used and should be their baseline.

Either that or do the crazy thing I suggested with T6 standard.

Since I was spot on in my prediction that GW would go to T5 for orkz, and was likewise completely correct that they would massively over correct and make them less competitive than ever before, I would now like to go on official record again and state that if GW did either of these things orkz would be hot garbage. At that point GW would probably make them 15-16ppm and feel justified in removing something else from them.

That's just GW being GW. You could leave them at 8 points to still make them a horde sorta army but exhaustingly tough.

GW is still really bad at balancing. They are making a lot of efforts to do better, but the bar started so low that 'better' still looks like this.

It's been kinda talked to death already in previous threads, but pretty much boyz are in a really bad spot as a tax option that is only marginally better than grots due to how terrible of a deal you are getting from taking grots. That and trukk boyz are the only way of making them semi-useful.

Frankly speaking, GW should split the boyz down into shoota boy and choppa boy profiles and make them do something distinctly different and provide something to the Ork army that the other specialists don't do currently, because as it is right now, Kommandos and Stormboyz do their job but better.

Unfortunately, GW will ignore this issue until we get a new codex in 10th edition where they'll likely be around the same as before, with slight tweaks.

Tyel wrote:
On the above.

I guess I'm not surprised it didn't work. I'd agree the issue is that units are so slow with terrible M and no advance and charge outside of 1 turn. Would army wide perma advance and charge help perhaps?

Not really, because when you play the mission, you usually don't want to charge - being in combat just makes your boyz die faster and most objective campers fight just as well as they do.

Although I've got to say, Boyz have to be Goffs, otherwise yes, they can't fight their way out of a paper bag. Not quite sure why chapter tactics should buff damage output by say 66% into T4, but they do.

Bloodaxes also work reasonably well because of the extra stratagems from the supplement and slightly more survivability.
Goff being as powerful as it is and not causing any issues also is a clear indicator of what terrible shape ork melee is in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dorath wrote:
Did Mob Rule even come into play with that many squads on the table? If so, did it matter? I don't have that many Boyz yet and while my heart wants it to make a difference, my head is a bit discouraged.

I don't think mob rule has mattered once in a single one of the games I have played with the current codex.

 Grimskul wrote:

Frankly speaking, GW should split the boyz down into shoota boy and choppa boy profiles and make them do something distinctly different and provide something to the Ork army that the other specialists don't do currently, because as it is right now, Kommandos and Stormboyz do their job but better.

GW won't split them into two separate datasheets thanks to the new kit, which has 3 shootas and 5 sluggas, a special weapon guy and the nob. At that point the kit would be unplayable out of the box, so boyz need to be able to mix up shootas and sluggas in the same squad.

You could just do an extra datasheet for shoota boyz though and leave the current one as-is, like they did for battlewagons or carnifexes.

 Jidmah wrote:

dorath wrote:
Did Mob Rule even come into play with that many squads on the table? If so, did it matter? I don't have that many Boyz yet and while my heart wants it to make a difference, my head is a bit discouraged.

I don't think mob rule has mattered once in a single one of the games I have played with the current codex.

I mentioned it somewhere either here or another thread. But at the GT I went to, and out of the hundred or so games i've played in 9th I FINALLY got to use my Mob Rule 1 time. Had my Kommandos get mauled by some custards, 3 survived. I had a 2nd unit of kommandos next to them, unscathed. When they inevitably failed morale I rolled a 1 and a 2 for attrition, my opponent said something along the lines of "Oh that sucks, I thought at least one would stick around" to which I replied, the 2 doesn't count and he asked why and I got to for the first time explain how the absolutely stupidly atrocious Mob rule had FINALLY made a difference in any of my games. So, in the 100+ games I have played so far in 9th, Mob rule has officially saved 12pts of Models for me. I think it works out to something like 0.12ppg saved by Mob Rule

I think I'd rather Ork Boyz go back to T4 if that's what it takes to get a points reduction back to 6-7 points which is where Ork boyz should be.

The T5 does practically nothing in this meta.

It's also a kick in the teeth that other factions keep getting stratagems to regrow models GSC, tyranids and now the new Tzaangor army of renown.

Where is green tide?

The ork codex feels so incredibly weak in this new meta but they will probably hit us with more nerfs to go with all the others.

If we got t5 and kept all our previous stuff, it would be a really nice boost actually. It’s losing all our other defensive abilities that sucks.