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The Butcher's Nails should be removed from the lore! And why Angron is the worst Primarch!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in mk
Sacrifice to the Dark Gods




Warhammer 40K Universe

Before jumping on the Angry Train, read first.

When I first started getting into the lore of W40K, the Butcher's Nails sounded cool, from the surface I learnt and thought that they made you stronger and a berzerk (at least that's what I remember). Fast forwarding today, they're nothing but a big L for the WE legion and Angron himself and whoever had them before in the Dark Age of Tech. They literally serve no purpose other than degrading the user's brain until he doesn't know what the feth he's doing except killing and I don't understand how they continue to kill in a mindless state, but yeah that's 40K for you.

The Butcher's Nails just forced Angron to become a traitor and a massive walking abortion. The dude has 0 I mean 0 character development. He does nothing but rage because of what the nails did to his brain. "Nobody can 1v1 Angron", proceeds to get clapped by all of his brothers. Killed all his high ranking commanders except Kharn because he somehow touched him emotionally, forced the legion to embrace the Butcher's Nails and there were more loyalist World Eaters during the HH compare to traitor because nobody liked Angron, and nobody does like Angron and the sole reason are the Butcher's Nails. Kharn regret his decision on getting the Nails, he then wanted his Nails removed by a Thousand Sons sorcerer, but suddenly the Nails activated (Khorne influence?) and he mercilessly killed the sorcerer.

Even in the fan written HH stories, the Butcher's Nails don't exist because they're stupid. Anybody to receive the Nails would become a Khorne worshiper at the end, basically sealing someone's fate without their decision to worship Khorne or not (free will).

It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails. This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.

I'm not a WE fan, but it'd be way, way more desirable for Nails to be removed and Angron and the WE being a noble gladiator legion who has a gene flaw making way for character development and far more interesting reads both on loyalist and traitor sides.

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

And everybody wonders why they print their minis instead of buying directly from GW.

Added:

The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.

When landed on Nuceria, he had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer (Mortarion literally had to fight the Warhammer equivalent of the Lich King, was still able to do 95% of the work) , or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

Angron never won a fight against his brothers, even the fight against Leman Russ. Angron knocked Leman on his ass, however Leman baited Angron into a kill zone. He was surrounded by guns that would blow him to shreds in seconds. Despite the WE fury in combat and wining in kill count, they had no strategies and Angron was at Lemans mercy. Leman should've done what should have been done before, press the "eliminate" button but he just couldn't bring himself to kills brother and retreated. After this Angron thought he won against Leman and the SW. In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.

Everybody points out that the Emperor was bad towards Angron, yes I know that. The Emperor was a dick towards some of his sons and was good to others. It shows how much of a Meme lord he is.

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 13:47:10


 
   
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The exact nature of who stood between Horus and the Emperor has not been revealed currently, it could very well be an Imperial Guardsman (or that is, imperial army)

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Never Forget Isstvan!







1 - The Nails were a punishment on Nuceria for gladiators who didn't do what their overlords commanded. The whole point was for the entertainment of the overlords.

2 - It wasn't just the Nails that pushed Angron to Horus. The Emperor treated Angron like a weapon more than any other Primarch and upon their first meeting had a chance to earn Angron's respect but He decided to not so that because He is a self-serving rat.

3 - Angron gets beaten once by Russ because Russ and the Wolves outmaneuver the World Eaters in an attempt to show Angron that barbarism and bloodshed don't diverge from tactics.

4 - Yeah, Angron killed loads of Legion commanders. So did Perturabo. What's your point? He was not a well-adjusted or nice individual. He forced the Nails on the Legion as a sick joke because they wanted to be "closer" to their father who hated them. They reminded him of the cruelty of the Emperor and his own personal failure to his gladiator family.

5 - Not sure where you get the idea that there were more Loyalist WE than any other Legion. Care to provide a source for that?

6 - The Nails activate whenever an attempt is made to remove them. They wire into the subject's brain and make it impossible to remove them without killing the host, which again was the point. Cruelty.

7 - Where do you get the idea that the WE have no influence on the galaxy? They were one of the first to turn Traitor and the First War for Armageddon still has ramifications for the current conflicts. Not everybody can be the Black Legion.

8 - The Guardsman getting nuked by Horus isn't set in stone. In fact, the whole point of that specific bit of story is that each organisation claims their own is the truth, much like everything else in the Imperium.
   
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Terrifying Doombull




I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

You do know that's a retcon, right? It isn't at all in the original version. The RoC:StD version just has the Emperor, a Custodes company and Imperial Fists (possibly a mixed company of both, with the way its worried). No random guardsman, no Sanguinius.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 F.E.A.R. wrote:

Killed all his high ranking commanders except Kharn because he somehow touched him emotionally




Kharn touching Angron emotionally, colorized (M31)


It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails. This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.




Blood Angels. You described Blood Angels.

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there's something about the Horus Heresy you have to keep in mind.

it's not an "action series" it's not a "heroic tale" it's a greek tragedy.
each of the Legions are supposed to be tragic in their own way. Angron, being well.. BROKEN.. is what makes the world eaters tragic. The hints lain suggest Anron was supposed to be the primarch of brotherhood. the, arguably, glue that held the crusade together. the "espitrt de corps given form" instead.. he's a broken blood thirsty beast and his sons followed him. THAT is the tragedy of the world eaters. they could be been the best of the Legions. and instead where the worst

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Yeah, melodrama & tragedy sum up HH almost to a T.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Each of the triator primarchs became a traitor due to their own flaws.

Horus: His Ambition
Lorgar: His fanatical need for faith drove him into the arms of chaos.
Peteubo: Perty IMHO was driven by bitterness and Jelousy. he belived he was the best and seemed to take anyone else being honored as a slight.
Magnus: His persuit of knowledge coupled with his arrogance ensured his fall.
Fulgrim: the arrogance of the Emperor's children ensured that no one even ASKED if they'd gone too far until they where too far gone.
Konrad Cruz: he was haunted by his visions so much that they drove him into actions that ensured they came true, A classic victem of self fufilling prophecy
Mortarion: his bitterness and hate of all things psyker slowly pushed him into aligning himself with the traitors as he became more and more the very thing he loathed.
Alpharus: a victem of his own overly complex schemes.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I'm also not a huge fan of the Butcher's Nails. I mean, them being used on Angron is mostly okay to me. But the fact that the rest of his legion installed them is really dumb, and it renders the World Eaters kinda inoperable as a fighting force pretty quickly.

I feel like they mostly struggle to write the World Eaters well in the Heresy series, even ADB's shot is less compelling than his other writing (though still enjoyable). I mean, fair dues, I'd struggle to write them too, because the constraints are massive.

I think you could have had the legion falling into barbarism and berserk rage just because they are space marines, already hyper violent hypnoconditioned freaks who likely feel rushes of endorphins when engaged in violence and just being encouraged by Angron and then later infected by Khorne. The Butcher's Nails in every single legionaire except the dreadnaughts is just really pretty silly to me.

   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






Again, that was the point. Angron hated the World Eaters, to the point where he just fully up and left at one point and they had to drag him back. Kharn wanted to know how they could get the respect of their father so Angron, being the unstable tortured man that he was, said if his sons wanted to understand and be closer to him, then they should get the Nails. And because the World Eaters were desperate, they did.
Angron only every wanted to die with his gladiators on Nuceria, something he was cheated of by the Emperor. His Legion reminded him of that slight so he took his anger out on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 09:11:34


 
   
Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

I kinda like ADB's suggestion that the WE are reliant on their mortal 'servants' like Lotara Sarrin to keep the legion operational, precisely because all their actual Astartes are frothing loonies.

I think that would make for a really compelling and unique twist on the usual CSM vs. mortals relationship/hierarchy if extended into the upcoming WE codex. Astartes characters who are just frenzied melee beatsticks, contrasted with mortal characters who do all the planning and logistics for the legion/warband and use the Astartes as basically living weapons, either through cunning manipulation or genuine trust.

So you might have a big, beefy Terminator Lord with a giant chainaxe, but your army's real leader is the mortal blood priestess who 'advises' the Lord who exactly Khorne wants him to kill today. And her staff is topped with the skull of the Lord's predecessor, just to remind everyone what happens if they don't listen to the 'Voice of Khorne'...

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Duskweaver wrote:
I kinda like ADB's suggestion that the WE are reliant on their mortal 'servants' like Lotara Sarrin to keep the legion operational, precisely because all their actual Astartes are frothing loonies.


I think it would be more interesting to make the Nails something that, while always present, activates when in stressful or intense situations (like combat), and WE are capable of planning, logistics, equipment upkeep, and the rest (though obviously incredibly aggressive and hostile in general).

 Duskweaver wrote:
I think that would make for a really compelling and unique twist on the usual CSM vs. mortals relationship/hierarchy if extended into the upcoming WE codex. Astartes characters who are just frenzied melee beatsticks, contrasted with mortal characters who do all the planning and logistics for the legion/warband and use the Astartes as basically living weapons, either through cunning manipulation or genuine trust.

So you might have a big, beefy Terminator Lord with a giant chainaxe, but your army's real leader is the mortal blood priestess who 'advises' the Lord who exactly Khorne wants him to kill today. And her staff is topped with the skull of the Lord's predecessor, just to remind everyone what happens if they don't listen to the 'Voice of Khorne'...


Nah, in the context of ADB's work that comes off too much like his "women being in charge is good, men being in charge is bad" kind of stuff. Khorne may not care from where the blood flows, but the World Eaters are his favored servants. If a mortal tried to threaten a World Eater with a skull of one of their legion it would be over real quick for them.

More interesting, if you had to keep the Nails as something that near-incapacitates longtime users, would be the younger World Eaters, who haven't been completely overtaken by the Nails yet, be the ones doing what you described.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin






if we're removing butchers nails can we make it so sanguinius doesnt die too?

i mean i always thought he was cool and never liked that he died.

if were changing lore ya know...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Voss wrote:
I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

You do know that's a retcon, right? It isn't at all in the original version. The RoC:StD version just has the Emperor, a Custodes company and Imperial Fists (possibly a mixed company of both, with the way its worried). No random guardsman, no Sanguinius.


I thought the original story had a lone terminator charging while firing his storm bolter (and as we know in Space Hulk that means no sustained fire bonus and would need a double 6 to do a point of damage...).
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





F.E.A.R. wrote:They literally serve no purpose other than degrading the user's brain until he doesn't know what the feth he's doing except killing and I don't understand how they continue to kill in a mindless state, but yeah that's 40K for you.
Yeah, that's the point - they're not supposed to be a good thing. They were implanted in Angron to make him a slave to the Nucerians, and in his own anger and hatred towards his Legion, they implanted them as well. That's the point.

The Butcher's Nails just forced Angron to become a traitor and a massive walking abortion. The dude has 0 I mean 0 character development.
Sorry, awful language aside, have you read Betrayer? Because Angron gets some of the best characterisation (not the same as development, but development isn't always the point) of any Primarch in that book. The back and forth between him and Guilliman has them both make excellent points about eachother.
there were more loyalist World Eaters during the HH compare to traitor because nobody liked Angron
Source on that?
. Kharn regret his decision on getting the Nails, he then wanted his Nails removed by a Thousand Sons sorcerer, but suddenly the Nails activated (Khorne influence?) and he mercilessly killed the sorcerer.
Yes - that's the point and tragedy of it. The World Eaters cannot escape their fate.

Anybody to receive the Nails would become a Khorne worshiper at the end, basically sealing someone's fate without their decision to worship Khorne or not (free will).
Again, yes. That's the point. That makes them *more tragic* - they followed Angron out of misplaced love down a path that doomed them all.

It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails.
That already exists - they're called the Blood Angels.
This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.
Again, that's the point - they're not supposed to be an organised Legion. You can absolutely have World Eater warbands, but why would there be an organised Legion? Angron hates his sons, and his sons are quite happy killing in Khorne's name.

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.
The old lore which is itself a retcon?

Hecaton wrote:Khorne may not care from where the blood flows, but the World Eaters are his favored servants. If a mortal tried to threaten a World Eater with a skull of one of their legion it would be over real quick for them.
Are they really his "favoured servants", or are they just the ones devoted to him? If a mortal who was also devoted to Khorne could prove her strength over a World Eater, then more power to her - might makes right. After all, this is pretty much exactly what happened in Storm of Iron.


They/them

 
   
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Nuremberg

I dunno though, power behind the throne manipulation is more of aTzeentch thing.

   
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Used to be that all the gods venn diagrams deliberately overlapped with eachother so thats no issue in my head canon. Unsure if that is still the case though
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






It still can be. How do you think Slaaneshi cults infiltrate the higher echelons? By finding the power behind the leadership and tempting them into debauchery (which TBF most already do). A Khorne cult could be based around traveling gladiator games, leaving behind small groups to influence the planet into making gladiatorial combat the primary form of entertainment.
Nurgle cults could deliberately infect the loved ones of a Planetary Governer and get the desperate enough to pledge to the cult for a cure.
   
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Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

In my own head cannon:

Post Angrons discovery. The Emperor, realising how far gone they are, actively encourages Angrons excesses in war and with his own sons. When the Great Crusade is over and the culling of the legions begins a debased and unstable legion of frothing madmen will mean it will be easier for other Primarchs and their sons to eradicate their former brothers in arms and get a taste for fratricide.

Though I really do like the idea of mortals nudging the 'Eaters into conflict.

   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Ahh, Angron.

Most underrated of the Primarchs in terms of tragedy.

Did the Nucerian Nobility abuse him? Yes. Of course they did. They fitted him with Butcher’s Nails, took away his free will. And when he proved troublesome, mobilised to wipe him and his followers out.

That The Emperor did exactly the same bloody thing adds to that. He used Angron as a tool more brazenly than he did his other “sons”. He also utterly denied Angron vengeance and honour by abducting him, but leaving Antron’s brothers and sisters to perish. There was nothing stopping The Emperor intervening in literally any other way. But nope. He was just here for his tool.

Really, Khorne is the only master Angron has ever willingly served - and the only Master to leave Angron about his business. Was Angron in full control of his faculties when he made that decision? No. But none of that was Khorne’s doing. At all.

The runner up in the “it didn’t have to go that way” is Perturabo. He was a match for Dorn in terms of his abilities. Yet the Iron Warriors got none of the glory. Some might call him petty. I call him entirely justified. It’s a very very very small beans comparison, but it’s like when your boss gets lots of top quality and innovative work out of you on a project, only to pass the glory on to someone else. Yes this actually happened to me. Yes I loathe that tosspot boss. Yes I do bear a grudge. Yes you can fight me and probs win because I’m an avowed wuss, but that wouldn’t suddenly make me wrong

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Perty doesn't get much sympathy from me, simply for the decimation he inflicts on his legion after being introduced.

It is petty and stupid, and amounts to nothing more than having a visible 'villain brand' for purposes of slotting him into the HH narrative.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 19:32:37


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

BrianDavion wrote:
Each of the triator primarchs became a traitor due to their own flaws.
Horus: His Ambition
Lorgar: His fanatical need for faith drove him into the arms of chaos.
Peteubo: Perty IMHO was driven by bitterness and Jelousy. he belived he was the best and seemed to take anyone else being honored as a slight.
Magnus: His persuit of knowledge coupled with his arrogance ensured his fall.
Fulgrim: the arrogance of the Emperor's children ensured that no one even ASKED if they'd gone too far until they where too far gone.
Konrad Cruz: he was haunted by his visions so much that they drove him into actions that ensured they came true, A classic victem of self fufilling prophecy
Mortarion: his bitterness and hate of all things psyker slowly pushed him into aligning himself with the traitors as he became more and more the very thing he loathed.
Alpharus: a victem of his own overly complex schemes.


The most interesting thing about this observation is the thing that you missed. Angron isn't a victim of his own flaws, he is a victim of the flaws that were forced upon him by others by way of the Butchers Nails (which quite literally rewired his brain and caused mental instability beyond just heightened agression, as well as decreased logic and reasoning capacity, etc. and made any action other than the expression of anger and violence to be physically painful for Angron - i.e. even breathing, eating, speaking, thinking, etc. was a labored task for him) and the related lobotomization/removal of parts of his brain, as well as his treatment by others.

IMO he is the only Primarch who essentially lacks any real form of agency throughout the entirety of their character arc. He was forced to fight for entertainment by others. When he was ordered to kill the closest thing he had to a family he refused - and then was surgically altered so that he would have no choice in the matter. When he finally tried to seize agency for himself by leading the gladiators rebellion, the Emperor showed up and asked him to abandon his fight - Angron said no, the Emperor forced him to abandon his gladiators, quite literally against his will, and robbed him of his agency again and forced him to take the lead of a legion of troops he wanted nothing to do with. When he tries to escape from them and reclaim that agency by living as what was essentially a feral savage, he was sweet-talked back into it, basically with the promise that he could do unto his legion what was done unto him - in essence, what little agency he gained as a Primarch (keeping in mind that he was an unwilling Primarch to begin with, unlike his brothers) came from taking away the agency of his legion (forcing them to fight eachother to the death in training exercises, forcing them to decimate their own ranks for punishment, and eventually the implantation of the butchers nails which deprived them of their individual agency in the same way that Angrons implants deprived him of his).

Even still while he has some degree of agency as a Primarch following his blossoming bromance with Kharn (and even moreso after he tells Russ to feth off and refuses the Emperors demand to stop the implantation process), he never has full agency to the extent that he is acting in a clear-minded and rational state, as he is still subject to the effects of the Butchers nails and the modified thinking patterns and forced behavioral responses that they trigger. Likewise, he is still subject to the will of the Emperor, such as being forced to kneel in humiliation befoure Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines for his failings. Ultimately, the effects of the Butchers nails lead Angron and the World Eaters into the service of Khorne - not in the sense that he "bent the knee" and made a conscious decision of it, but because their behavior and psychology was conducive to corruption that came over time and ultimately fully due to the machinations of Lorgar who more or less pledged Angron to Khorne and transformed him into a daemon prince without Angrons knowledge or agreement (and in fact against his will, given that Angrons librarians similarly pulled Angrons soul from his body, and said soul attempted to fight the daemon prince and prevent it from possessing his body)- and with that corruption Angron was ultimately robbed once more of any agency he might have had, damned to daemonhood and eternal service to Khorne as a harvester of blood and skulls. He may have exercised some agency in joining Horus, but he did so under the influence of Khorne and the faulty thinking created by the Butchers Nails and the masterful manipulations of Horus. The fluff is pretty clear that it wasn't Angron who offered himself and his legion to Khorne, but in fact it was Lorgar who chose that path for him and forced him and the legion into eternal servitude without their awareness or consent. Perturabo acts as a bit of an oracle or a greek chorus on Deluge when he is fighting Angron, pointing out to the then/now-daemonic Angron that he was born a slave and would remain one for an eternity - and indeed his service to Khorne is described in several places as "enslavement" and its implied or stated in several places that he has little or no will of his own and simply acts as a conduit for Khornes rage and desire.

All the Primarchs that walked a path of damnation did so as a result of decisions that they made for themselves and by themselves. Angron was the only one who could be said to have walked down that path due to decisions that were made for him by others. While some of the other Primarchs may have been influenced to take certain actions by outside factors, they ultimately were the ones to make the call. Angron, on the other hand, is a blunt and damaged instrument - if he were a human being alive today he would have a court-ordered conservator because in his state of being he would be recognized as not having the capacity to care for himself or make sound and rational decisions for himself. Not because of a fairly mundane character or personality flaw/defect as was the case with all his brothers, but because he's literally missing more or less half of his brain and the other half was re-wired to work in a way other than it was meant to and was rapidly degenerating as a result.

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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Nuremberg

Yeah, I agree with that. Angron had no agency, that's his story. And it's actually a pretty good story. He's like the most frustrated being in the galaxy, despite being a demigod. Pretty cool.

I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem. And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.

It's no big deal, I just think that space marines are already a pretty blood thirsty lot that are rewarded with stimulating chemicals when they kill, and the World Eaters just really leaning into it and being a bit more susceptible because of I dunno, the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.

Betrayer is still a good book though. And Angron is cooler than he's made out to be, it's the legion I find one note.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 20:33:17


   
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Because I cannot reply to so many comments, I'm going to say this.

The only ones who gave out good answers are @Da Boss and @chaos0xomega.

For the people who said I described the BA, I know, I don't hate the BA but it suits the WE better.

I want to like Angron like so many others people, but the Nails just don't let you like the guy and the WE. THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
"It's there so that they fall to Khorne" bruh the fall is forced and it's unlikable, Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria. That just shows how pathetic he is. The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.

Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.

The only Primarchs I connect to are pre-heresy Fulgrim and Perturabo, for me personally.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).

Take Arthas Menethil the Lich King and Illidan Stormrage as characters from another universe as an example. You can connect with them because their story is truly a tragedy, especially Arthas, who for the sake of his people and his kingdom, said that he would bare any curse to save his people, and he willingly took Forstmourne, the blade that would be his and his peoples undoing.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.





   
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 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I want to like Angron like so many others people, but the Nails just don't let you like the guy and the WE. THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
Not every character is there to develop. Some characters exist to develop others, or to espouse a particular worldview or opinion. For Angron, he actually acts more to prop up the stories of Lorgar, Kharn, and Guilliman (in Betrayer), to challenge their opinions, and to make them act. Also, to say that he has no development isn't true - as mentioned, he does develop in so far as "accepting" his sons as spurned dogs, but he does change his initial opinions. However, I don't believe that he NEEDS development to be a good character, and I think it's a folly in writing to believe that every character needs development.
"It's there so that they fall to Khorne" bruh the fall is forced and it's unlikable, Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria. That just shows how pathetic he is. The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.
Yeah. That's why he's different from the others, and more tragic. The fact that you see that as a bad thing for his character because it makes him "pathetic" honestly just kinda tells me that you only care about a character in so far as how they can make their own choices, and honestly, I think that misses out a lot of the good that a tragically cursed character has.

Sure, he's a literal demigod - and he got beaten by a massively technologically superior enemy who specialised in enslaving people. Angron is so much more *interesting* because he didn't become like the others, and that lends to some great "what if" stories which we wouldn't have if he was just like Mortarion or Horus. Again, the tragedy of his character comes from what he *could* have been, not the choices he made.

Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.
I disagree. You can absolutely empathise with him, and feel awful for him losing his best friends, anger for the Emperor taking his death from him, and fury at being turned into a living weapon by his own father. You can connect with his Legion - desperate for their father's love, knowing that they're doing awful stuff to themselves, but they love Angron too much. Hell, you can revel in the irony of him hating his father for turning him into a weapon, and him doing exactly the same thing to his own sons.

You can absolutely connect and empathise with him.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).
You can absolutely feel sad about all of them. They all happen because of awful circumstances, be that a failure from their father, their own ego, their sense of entitlement, the actions of slavers, or being stabbed by a cursed dagger or betrayed by their right hand Astartes. Again - the tragedy here is that they were all avoidable in some way. Even Lorgar's is avoidable, if the Emperor hadn't censured him and he'd never fallen in with Kor Phaeron.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.
He picked it up because of the expectations that he felt he needed to match, and the weight put on him compared to his brothers. Fulgrim's fall stems from his upbringing and what led him to pick up the Laer Blade. Again, they were all avoidable tragedies, and THAT'S what makes them tragic.


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 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, I agree with that. Angron had no agency, that's his story. And it's actually a pretty good story. He's like the most frustrated being in the galaxy, despite being a demigod. Pretty cool.

I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem. And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.

It's no big deal, I just think that space marines are already a pretty blood thirsty lot that are rewarded with stimulating chemicals when they kill, and the World Eaters just really leaning into it and being a bit more susceptible because of I dunno, the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.

Betrayer is still a good book though. And Angron is cooler than he's made out to be, it's the legion I find one note.

As someone who lacks much interest in or knowledge of Khorne factions, this tracks for me. It sounds like Angron's story was all well and good as stories go, and I get the tasty tragedy of the nails being adopted by others out of a desperate attempt to connect with Angron, but...

Well, marines are already a bunch of hyperviolent manchildren with predictable motivations. World Eaters seem to just be all those things but like, even more man. It doesn't seem like they bring much to the table narratively that isn't already covered by other factions. And needing to stab someone every five minutes doesn't jive super well with spending months and months traveling in starships. Like, I get they have a lot of redundant unaugmented humans to vent on, but the faction as a whole seems like it should basically be sabotaging/destroying itself constantly to the point that it's weird it's still a major player in the 41st millenium.

And frankly, the constant pointless anger/violence kind of makes their anger/violence less interesting. Like, a moment of rage and extreme violence can be a thrilling climax to a story. Sam Vimes demanding to know the location of his bovine is a moment that sticks with you (though admittedly that's partially due to its hilarity). But a World Eater struggles to have a memorable, interesting moment of rage because he's spent the entire story screaming and stabbing something every five minutes.

Chill, bunny ears. Go back to preschool, and stay there until you have more emotional maturity than a fussy toddler. Most of the rest of the galaxy already called dibs on having "grumpy and rude" as their only personality traits, and doing it louder doesn't make it more interesting.

I don't know. I mean no disrespect to you Khorne lovers out there, but how do you get into any Khorne faction? They just seem so one-note and lacking in goals or personalities. Even the daemons don't seem to have much going on beyond running forward and spamming the melee button. Which is a shame because a god of war and blood could have all kind of cool gimmicks if "stupid with anger" weren't their defining personality trait. Is their simplicity the appeal? Is it refreshing on some level that they don't really have any motivation beyond gaining points on Khorne's scoreboard? Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?
   
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 Da Boss wrote:


I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem.


My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to. Russ showing up to try to bring Angron and the World Eaters back to Terra to remove the Nails implies it was possible, and IIRC in discussion between the Emperor and Arkhan Land it was directly stated that removal of the Nails was possible, but that the damage to Angrons mind had already been done. I think the Emperor chose to leave them in because Angron was already irreparably broken, but the Nails at least made him a more functional tool when it came to making war, even if he couldn't quite fill his full intended purpose within the Emperors pantheon.

Also, I wouldn't say "the could be installed into thousands of legionnaires no problem". It took decades for Angrons crew to figure that trick out, up until then their attempts at implantation resulted in a 100% mortality rate, even as they improved the tech it still had high mortality rates and produced inconsistent and poor results. It wasn't until the legion pilfered tech from Ghenna that they were able to figure out a way to successfully implant the nails on anything more than an individual basis - even then there were still issues with it, which is why formations like Rampagers and Caedere squads exist, those were the implantees whos reactions to the nails were too extreme and they couldn't function as part of typical WE units. It bares mentioning that the Butchers Nails implanted into the World Eaters are of a different in design from Angrons own given that they had to source tech from Ghenna to make it happen rather than Nucerian tech. The fact that the Nails were said explicitly to not have been designed for the physiology of a Primarch, which caused them to react differently than in others was no doubt a contributing factor in this as well, whereas its safe to assume that the Techmarines and Apothecaries who developed the Nails implanted into the rest of the legion took their own transhuman physiology into account when they redesigned them.

And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.


I mean, it makes sense that he would do unto his children as was done unto him. Hes a broken bastard that only knew suffering and violence, so the children created in his likeness should only know the same. Also I don't think the legion had the Nails for very long before the Heresy, there were still un-Nailed legionnaires at the time of Istvaan III and efforts to Nail them were still ongoing. Likewise we see that despite most of the legion having nails, they still mostly remain lucid and more than capable of rational though when they are not in combat and are able to function in relative stability in a garrison posture - its principally when they go into combat that they go into frenzy and start operating as individual murderers instead of a cohesive army. In terms of time that could mean basically anything given the sometimes absurdly long timescales of the Horus Heresy, but its not out of the realm of possibility of it only having been an arbitrarily short enough period of time that they were still able to "barely hold it together". in any case, between that, the stated drop in recruit quality in order to continuously replenish ranks from losses, and the use of serfs and allied Mechanicum forces, etc. to keep the legion functioning and supplied between battle, theres plenty of non-convoluted explanations for how they "worked". It does bare mentioning that following Istvaan III they are described loosely as becoming progressively less functional as a military force due to their tendency to completely abandon any sense of an organized plan and simply just throw themselves into combat at the earliest opportunity, often to the detriment of themselves and their allies and by the end of the Heresy/the early post-Heresy era they cease to be any sort of a cohesive fighting force, instead becoming scattered packs of frenzied savage warbands.

the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.


without the nails though you then lose the angle that Angron is actually physically/mentally damaged, not in the "I have daddy issues, bad nightmares, and should really get a therapist" sense, but in the "I have literal brain damage, am missing entire sections of my brain, and have had my neural pathways literally restructured to make me more aggressive and violent", it makes him a lot more like Curze and the others in just being a victim of "nurture" as it were, whereas in a way Angron is more a victim of "nature" - however artificial that nature may be. In turn that distinction sets the nature of the World Eaters apart from their brother legions.

The repeated insistence that the nails turned the world eaters into 100% frothing murder machines is itself a meme on the same scale as failbaddon. Outside of combat, we are shown a number of scenes where post-Nails World Eaters are able to carry out entire conversations, some pretty introspective and deep. If your perception of them is that they are always in a blind murderous fury, then thats a "you" problem. For me, the thing that sold me on the World Eaters was the scene between Kharn and Argel Tal in Betrayer - a conversation that occurs well after Kharn has the Nails implanted:

Spoiler:
+*He is no primarch,*+ came Argel Tal’s voice in Khârn’s mind.

The centurion’s first instinct was to shudder. The Nails bit harder, hotter, in the wake of the psychic whisper; they hurt more every time. Khârn looked back to his brother, where Argel Tal was directing his own men into their own gunships and drop pods.

"He is my primarch", Khârn replied, with no idea if Argel Tal could hear him. Sometimes the silent speech worked, sometimes it didn’t.

+*A primarch should be inspiring. Our genetics should react at the mere sight of them. Think of the moments you laid eyes on Horus, Dorn, or Magnus. I’ve seen Sanguinius and Russ with my own eyes, as well. Close enough to touch their armour. Think of when you stand before Lorgar: the awe and reverence that beats through your blood. The feeling of our genetic coding reacting to the pinnacle of the human process. I’ve never felt that instinctive respect for Angron, Khârn. Not once. He is a broken thing. Devastating, unrivalled in war, but broken.*+

Khârn didn’t answer because there was nothing to say. He boarded his drop pod, ascending the ramp and waiting for a robed Legion slave to secure his restraint harness.

+*You feel it,+ Argel Tal said. +You feel it, too.*+

In psychic silence, Khârn confessed something he’d never said outside his Legion. "Yes, we feel the same. The World Eaters, each and every one of us, knows what you know.

Argel Tal’s voice was laced with cold, seething anger. +*Why do you tolerate it?*+

"What can we do? Murder our own father? Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor? Or did you tolerate him in patience, hoping that eventually he’d find his way to equalling his brothers?"

A pause. A long, long pause. Khârn took it as Argel Tal’s capitulation and pushed on. "It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father."

There was nothing of mockery in the Word Bearer’s reply. Only sympathy. Khârn’s skin crawled. He’d have preferred mockery.

+*It didn’t work?*+

The drop pod’s sides closed in, armour plating locking to block all view of the hangar beyond. Khârn’s last sight was of Argel Tal ascending the gang-ramp into a red XVII Legion gunship. ‘No,’ he muttered, as much to himself as to the distant Word Bearer. ‘It didn’t.’


If that isn't pitiful, tragic, and deep, I don't know what is. They are definitely perceived and memed as being a one-note legion, and some of the authors have struggled with their depiction, but they are so much more than that.


The only ones who gave out good answers are @Da Boss and @chaos0xomega.

For the people who said I described the BA, I know, I don't hate the BA but it suits the WE better.


Lol thanks, but I was the one who said you described BA lol

THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.


I disagree, the passage I above IMO speaks to much deeper depth of character and identity for the World Eaters than most of the other legions IMO.

Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria.


Yeah, thats kind of the point. Like, the actual literal point of his narrative arc and his and his legions identity. His legion wants to be loved by him and proud of him, but he hates them and they are in turn ashamed of and embarassed by him. He is broken (literally described as such by others in the setting!) and damaged and not whole, he is the only primarch not to conquer his homeworld, he is the only primarch to reject the Emperor and reject his legion, he is the only primarch that does not join the Emperor and the Great Crusade by choice, and likewise the only traitor primarch who unwillingly falls to chaos and ascends to daemonhood. Angron is, in essence, a failed Primarch - he could never (following the implantation of the Butcher's Nails) fulfill the purpose and role intended for him by the Emperor. Even physically he seems to have been stunted relative to his brothers, being amongst the smallest of the Primarchs, implying that not only was he mentally damaged and deformed, but physically as well.

That just shows how pathetic he is.


Pitiful, more than pathetic. There is a distinction between the two. In terms of actually pathetic I would rate Curze, Perturabo, and Corax much higher. Angron is what he was made into, you can't fault him for being who and what he is because he has no choice in the matter and no capacity to change it. This is uniquely and singularly his plight. In truth the Emperor should have just put him out of his misery the moment it became apparent that the Butchers Nails had permanently damaged him and that he was no longer fully functional. That is pitiful.

His brothers on the other hand all had the freedom and capacity to make their own changes and chart their own path, so when they wallow in self-pity and feth up everything for themselves and everyone around them, etc. that is pathetic and a self-inflicted wound.

The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.


lolwut? The only primarch that even debatably had it worse than Angron was Konrad Curze (and maybe Alpharius depending on which version of events you believe). Most other Primarchs were taken in and raised by a loving family or a nurturing guardian/mentor and given every opportuntiy to succeed, if not then they at least found themselves in a position to succeed by virtue of being an environment that gave them access to the necessary resources and means to achieve greatness. Only Angron and Curze (leaving Alpharius own mysterious origins) were essentially put into a gakky situation - Curze had to raise himself on murder in a nightmarish and violent slum, but he at least had *freedom* and *agency* to make his own decisions and pursue his own path within the circumstances available to him. Angron was enslaved from basically the very get-go, tortured, mutilated, and broken, and forced to fight and kill against his will. The closest thing he had to a friend, mentor, or father figure was a fellow-gladiator who he was forced to kill. His attempts to rebel and seize control of the world - like his brothers would have - all ended in failure because, yknow, he was damaged and broken and without the necessary faculties and tools needed to do so. He was a failed primarch, not because he didn't live up to expectations, but because he was phyiscally incapable of doing so.


Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.


Speak for yourself.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).


This isn't true at all. They were not forced to serve Chaos, they were fated - there is a huge difference. All of them, except Angron, had choices that they made that led them down that path and led them to damnation. While Angron chooses to betray the Emperor (insofar as someone who is not of sound mind and physically incapable of rational thought can do so) following some expert manipulation by Horus and the others, he does not willingly serve chaos and only ends up a servant of Khorne because he is quite literally forced into daemonhood against his will, whereas all the others willingly chose that.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.


Not sure wtf this has to do with Angron.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 03:20:18


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I always heavily disliked the way GW constantly portrays Khorne Berserkers. "KILL MAIM BURN!" *SWINGS AXE* "MEHHHH"

I'm slpit on this really. I don't want the nails to be removed because they are an integral part of the World Eaters Legion, and Angron himself. I feel like Gert explained this absolutely perfectly earlier in the thread, it's exactly what I wanted to say, so to avoid being redundant please refer to his post.

But to add to this, I have differing lore in my head when it comes to Khorne Berserkers and even Kharn, and how the nails effects them. Yes, in battle when they enter a rage these guys become absolute maniacs. I totally understand that, and I understand the lack of tactics because they just don't care about that. But imagine, if you will, what do these guys do when they aren't in battle? GW would have us believe they are running around their battle barges howling and screaming and chopping and murdering and burning and.....well you know. But that's BS to me.

I imagine that when World Eaters aren't in battle, they are capable of conversation, albeit small amounts. I think there are areas of the ships where fights are arranged, to avoid the Berserkers mindlessly killing each other. And I imagine that Kharn is also capable of talking and even bargaining. He likely bargains for gene-seed or slaves. Maybe he has a bit of both and needs armaments instead. He could always use ammo. These are things I think Kharn HAS to be capable of, simple communication and bargaining skills. After all, this guy was a very charismatic Captain back in the day and now he's Lord of the Butcherhorde. I also like to imagine that other Chaos Lords involved in discussions with him would be put off by his demeanor. Kharn would still have his axe in hand, shoulders upright, and a sharp assertive tone. Demanding, disregarding, dismissive. Any lords in attendance would feel the need to acquiesce to his demands due to the possibility of his rage, powerful lords like Abaddon would return an ultimatum most likely.

These are more nuisance things I like to think about, and to me the nails simply makes these guys irritable when bored or not stimulated by aggression, but they aren't mindless rage machines to me. They can freak the feth out more regularly than their brothers, but they aren't constantly freaked the feth out. Like any human that you've met that has a temper or a bad attitude, World Eaters are the super human equivalent of that.

So in conclusion, I don't want the nails gone, I just want its lore expanded upon. And not so dumb and boring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 03:20:23


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Wyldhunt wrote:
Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?


I dunno. I basically thought the same about Khorne, Angron, and the World Eaters until today, this thread made me dig out some of my older novels and reread some passages from them and dig through wiki articles r/40kLore posts, etc. It completely changed my point of view on the topic, Angron and the World Eaters went from being the primarch and legion that I probably cared the absolute least about to potentially being my favorite within the span of about 14 hours.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?


I dunno. I basically thought the same about Khorne, Angron, and the World Eaters until today, this thread made me dig out some of my older novels and reread some passages from them and dig through wiki articles r/40kLore posts, etc. It completely changed my point of view on the topic, Angron and the World Eaters went from being the primarch and legion that I probably cared the absolute least about to potentially being my favorite within the span of about 14 hours.

Glad to hear it. My own hangups aside, it's nice to know you're enjoying the setting! Care to share any tidbits that you think might spark my interest? (I vaguely recall there being some neat blood magic going on with the Blood Gorgons and wishing that Khorne's anti-psyker stance didn't prevent more stuff like that from being explored.)

Lord Tarkin wrote:
But to add to this, I have differing lore in my head when it comes to Khorne Berserkers and even Kharn, and how the nails effects them. Yes, in battle when they enter a rage these guys become absolute maniacs. I totally understand that, and I understand the lack of tactics because they just don't care about that. But imagine, if you will, what do these guys do when they aren't in battle? GW would have us believe they are running around their battle barges howling and screaming and chopping and murdering and burning and.....well you know. But that's BS to me.

I imagine that when World Eaters aren't in battle, they are capable of conversation, albeit small amounts. I think there are areas of the ships where fights are arranged, to avoid the Berserkers mindlessly killing each other. And I imagine that Kharn is also capable of talking and even bargaining. He likely bargains for gene-seed or slaves. Maybe he has a bit of both and needs armaments instead. He could always use ammo. These are things I think Kharn HAS to be capable of, simple communication and bargaining skills. After all, this guy was a very charismatic Captain back in the day and now he's Lord of the Butcherhorde. I also like to imagine that other Chaos Lords involved in discussions with him would be put off by his demeanor. Kharn would still have his axe in hand, shoulders upright, and a sharp assertive tone. Demanding, disregarding, dismissive. Any lords in attendance would feel the need to acquiesce to his demands due to the possibility of his rage, powerful lords like Abaddon would return an ultimatum most likely.

These are more nuisance things I like to think about, and to me the nails simply makes these guys irritable when bored or not stimulated by aggression, but they aren't mindless rage machines to me. They can freak the feth out more regularly than their brothers, but they aren't constantly freaked the feth out. Like any human that you've met that has a temper or a bad attitude, World Eaters are the super human equivalent of that.

I wasn't under the impression that they were in constant kill maim burn mode, but they're still pointlessly cranky/stabby enough for it to turn me off. I'm struggling to remember the novel (maybe Talon of Horus?) where we get some scenes from the point of view of a marine with the nails. It's basically described as a slowly filling rage meter that fills faster when under stress that causes discomfort and makes it difficult for the character to think straight. He randomly smacks a passing human to death to satisfy the nails so he can string his thoughts together better. And that's... To me that's just sort of silly and makes the khorne marine sound like a cartoonish donkey-cave. Like, imagine the war room meetings where this guy just piledrives a random heretech because he's having trouble focusing on the discussion. And while the tragedy angle was there 10,000 years ago, now it's just like, "Stop being such a stupid a-hole, Kyle!" Especially if Kylewasn't around back in the day and just got the annoying donkey-cave surgery so he could fit in with the annoying donkey-caves that sit at the cool kids' table.

So sure, Kharn and pals can probably hold conversations just fine 99% of the time. But they're probably uncharismatic dicks the whole time. But maybe I'm just annoyed by the prevalence of childish bickering among marins (especially chaos marines) in general and the more blatant form it seems to take with Khorne marines gets old fast. Like, Thousand Sons sorcerers are often petty bickering little nerds, but at least some of them are aspiring to restore the rubricae or accomplish something of philosophical importance or find meaning in their existences. All the khorne characters I remember were pretty much just kill/maim/burn or the most dickish of dicks. Except that guy from the Fulgrim books whose main character trait is NOT being an donkey-cave thanks to Fabius messing with (removing?) his nails.

tldr; it's not that nailed marines are non-verbal. It's that they're usually the rudest guy in the room with the blandest thoughts and motivations. At least the scheming ambitious Tzeentch nerds have schemes and ambitions.

   
 
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