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The Butcher's Nails should be removed from the lore! And why Angron is the worst Primarch!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in mk
Sacrifice to the Dark Gods




Warhammer 40K Universe

 Gert wrote:


Curze was never found by anyone. He landed and was on his own for his entire early life. He only became Nostramo's ruler after he brutally murdered thousands of people and created a culture of obedience through fear. There wasn't an organised resistance against Curze because everyone was too scared of him, he was more than a person he was a monster.

I never said that Curze was found by anyone. I literally said that he landed in the planet's crust, had to crawl through magma, then had to hide from rapists and murderers as a toddler, lost his fething marbles and he was still able to become king of Nostramo.


 Gert wrote:
Angron got captured while unconscious and was made a gladiator with no opportunity to learn to be anything but a fighter.
Do you maybe want to actually read the background before you make statements?

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, that was the point. Angron's entire character is poison to his sons because his life was utter garbage both before and after the Emperor found him. The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else. Angron never got any real help because he suited the Emperor's purpose, up until a point. He was the rabid dog on a short leash who would be let off to commit insane violence to prevent long-lasting wars of conquest.


No that's not the point. It's bad writing. The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I never said that Curze was found by anyone. I literally said that he landed in the planet's crust, had to crawl through magma, then had to hide from rapists and murderers as a toddler, lost his fething marbles and he was still able to become king of Nostramo.

Except none of the Primarchs were ever toddlers, they were young but at the very least just before puberty, not babies.
As for the hiding part, it was a world eternally shrouded in darkness and was heavily populated and crime-ridden, it would be easy for a Primarch to hide. Curze also stopped "hiding" very early on and made himself known as a violent vigilante. Corax actually was hidden from his planet's rulers but the slaves of his world.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

They did find value in Angron being a demi-god, when he showed great promise during his first "match" it was proclaimed was going to be their greatest source of entertainment ever. He was literally called "The Unbeaten". That being said, escaping slavery is not an easy thing to do. Angron was young and didn't know strategy as Corax did, all he knew was how to kill. He also did escape with his army of gladiators when he eventually learned how to organise his fellow slaves.
You compare him to Primarchs who were raised in places where teaching was common and Angron didn't have that. He learned how to survive and how to kill. That's it. The Nails even robbed him of his ability to remove pain from others.

No that's not the point. It's bad writing. The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.

They absolutely were not created equally. Magnus was an immensely powerful Psyker second to the Emperor, Vulkan was functionally immortal, and Curze and Sanguinius could see the future. The other Primarchs had their strengths as well but by no means were they equal even when the Emperor intended for them to be crafted in His image.
Angron being one dimensional when he has become a shard of Khorne is hilarious because who cares? His Crusade and HH era character is that we know where he ends up and how he could have changed his fate but deliberately chose not to because the path he walked was easier. He could have been a better person and forbid his sons the pain of the Nails but he was a broken man who wanted everyone else to feel his pain.
As for good WE characters, Lheorvine Ukris and Arrian Zorzi. Both really good.

You should also watch your language. If you can't get your point across about a fictional setting without swearing then don't bother.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





F.E.A.R. wrote:He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was.
Or how capable his captors were.
Everybody points out that the Emperor was bad towards Angron, yes I know that. The Emperor was a dick towards some of his sons and was good to others. It shows how much of a Meme lord he is.
Sorry, what?

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.
Yes. That's the point.

In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.
So you've read Betrayer, and still don't think Angron is a detailed character? Just how much did you read?

F.E.A.R. wrote:The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.
I don't think any of those are correct - I think any Primarch put in Angron's situation, maybe with the exception of Sanguinius (and even then, he'd probably have his wings ripped from him) would have suffered the same fate. All those traits that you ascribe to other Primarch are either ones that Angron was more than capable of possessing (punching their way out), or ones that were learned/developed over time (Corax's shadewalking and Magnus's magic) or simply traits learned from their upbringings (Guilliman and Lorgar's oratory).

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, that was the point. Angron's entire character is poison to his sons because his life was utter garbage both before and after the Emperor found him. The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else. Angron never got any real help because he suited the Emperor's purpose, up until a point. He was the rabid dog on a short leash who would be let off to commit insane violence to prevent long-lasting wars of conquest.


No that's not the point. It's bad writing.
From someone who can't make a point without calling someone a bitch, I don't think you're a great arbiter of what's "bad writing".
The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal.
They really weren't. Even in their test tubes, there were differences (Magnus' third eye, Russ' Canis Helix, Sanguinius' wings).
Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame.
Tell me you haven't read any of ADB's Angron stories without telling me you haven't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 17:28:39



They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Angron gets beaten once by Russ because Russ and the Wolves outmaneuver the World Eaters in an attempt to show Angron that barbarism and bloodshed don't diverge from tactics.


Except he isn't actually beaten; that's one of the reasons Angron doesn't accept he lost when Lorgar tries to tell him that.

Angron beats Russ in a fight and then discovers that during that fight he's been surrounded and cut off by Russ' men. Sure.

But.....so what? They can't stop him without killing him and they don't have the authority to do that. Russ is bluffing and Angron sees that almost immediately. That's only him losing if he accepts he's lost and he doesn't.


And besides, having the opportunity to kill him stilling a win because - spinal level survival instinct aside (which is mostly suppressed by the nails anyway) he genuinely doesn't care. Russ' whole plan to intimidate him hinged on Angron giving a crap about his own survival and....he DOESNT. Which means Russ' lesson boils down to 'you've lost because I say you've lost' to which Angron quite rightly retorts 'and you still have a head and limbs because I let you crawl away in the dirt'.


As to character development, Angron does have plenty of moments. Yes, he's basically the Hulk when his nails fire, but his interactions with characters like Lotara Sarin and especially the Conqueror's scrymistress show what he WOULD have been like.

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.

Exactly so. He even makes this exact point to Gulliman who literally got handed the position of heir apparent to an entire world and then has the hypocrisy to rant at him about courage and honour.
And besides, even then when dumped on by the entire world he still broke out and turned a bunch of prisoners into an army that required mobilising most of the planet's military to crush. That's basically the same as Corax, except Corax was never a prisoner - his enemies never k ew he existed until too late - whilst angron did it whilst busting out of a maximum security prison with brain crippling cybernetics in his head.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 18:09:05


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

lolwut? The only primarch that even debatably had it worse than Angron was Konrad Curze (and maybe Alpharius depending on which version of events you believe). Most other Primarchs were taken in and raised by a loving family or a nurturing guardian/mentor and given every opportuntiy to succeed, if not then they at least found themselves in a position to succeed by virtue of being an environment that gave them access to the necessary resources and means to achieve greatness. Only Angron and Curze (leaving Alpharius own mysterious origins) were essentially put into a gakky situation - Curze had to raise himself on murder in a nightmarish and violent slum, but he at least had *freedom* and *agency* to make his own decisions and pursue his own path within the circumstances available to him. Angron was enslaved from basically the very get-go, tortured, mutilated, and broken, and forced to fight and kill against his will. The closest thing he had to a friend, mentor, or father figure was a fellow-gladiator who he was forced to kill. His attempts to rebel and seize control of the world - like his brothers would have - all ended in failure because, yknow, he was damaged and broken and without the necessary faculties and tools needed to do so. He was a failed primarch, not because he didn't live up to expectations, but because he was phyiscally incapable of doing so.


Angron had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer, or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.




lolwut?

Mortarion had a dad. Someone who protected him, taught him, and evidently cared for him - perhaps not lovingly or warmly, but enough to consider him his son and heir.

Russ may have been raised by wolves, but he had protection and warmth, raised as the wolfs own cub. His education may have been wolf-y, but the wolf was doing the best she could, okay? And not long after he (and his wolf-siblings) were taken in by Fenrisian humans who raised him with respect and reverence to become their king.

Corax had parents and friends who loved him, protected him, taught him, and raised him. He was never a slave, but lived a hidden life with them, invisible to the overseers and slavemasters.

You're interpreting Curzes background a bit more literally than is justified, theres no real proof that Curze landed in a lava-filled pit in the planets interior and swam his way through lava - most primarchs don't really have any memories of their arrival or early childhood, and as he didn't have parents there would be nobody who could have witnessed it or known about it, so its unlikely that this is true and is likely just part of the local Nostraman myth of the "Night Haunter" demon that stalked their planet. In any case, he might have been in a bad situation sans parental figures... but he had time, freedom, and the ability to make his own choices and forge his own path.

Angron was found (already beaten, bleeding, and badly wounded), shackled, enslaved, mutilated, lobotomized/had entire sections of his brain removed (even before the Butchers Nails were put into him per Arkhan Land, i.e. he was likely mentally damaged from not long after he was captured), tortured, and forced into the gladiator pits from the get-go. He didn't have his father figure for that long (the description given implies it was over a timespan measured in "months"), because it wasn't long before he was forced to kill him via what was basically an implanted mind-control device which he was *forced* to get (no, he didn't "let himself" get them). His ordeal caused his growth to be physically stunted, and his mental capacity to be stripped from him - in early childhood he displayed latent psychic abilities but by adulthood this was no longer the case because of the lobotomization and nails. By the time the emperor found him, he had a unilateral blink (i.e. he blinks his eyes one eye at a time - this is a real world indicator of severe brain damage), he could barely speak in coherent full sentences, his teeth have been replaced with metal, he can only breathe through his mouth because a persistent brain bleed keeps his nasal passages blocked with clots, his facial muscles and parts of his body twitch randomly, etc. As it says in Betrayer, "Outside of battle, he was a ruined thing, a shadow of what could - and should - have been." He is literally a ruined, damaged, failure of a primarch because of his experience on Nuceria, the fact that the same could not be said of any of hte other Primarchs speaks directly to the fact that Angron had it worse than all of them.

It also bares mentioning that Nuceria was an Imperial world, unlike the others which were brought into compliance following the Emperors arrival, the world was already compliant and Angron was enslaved by the planetary rulers, who had resources available to them that none of the other Primarchs had to contend with. This is part of the reason why Angron couldn't conquer the world - because it was already under the Emperors rule and the Imperial bureaucracy wasn't going to allow a slave revolt to change that. This is also part of what alerted the Emperor to Angrons presence, because his rebellion fethed up the planets tithes and brought more attention to the planet than it would have had otherwise.

The other primarchs situations clearly all had it better than him. I would argue that *none* of the other Primarchs would have succeeded or done any better than Angron did if the situation was reversed, quite a few of them likely would have died before the slavers ever even got to them given the condition Angron was found in after he killed off the xenos hit-squad sent after him. Also, you're like, one critically awful hot take away from posting "slavery is good, actually".

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.




Gert wrote: The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else.


I don't know there is much you can do to "deal with" having half your brain literally removed and an evidently unremovable implant installed that makes the function of the remaining half of your brain decidedly worse. F.E.A.R. may be missing the point entirely, but you're still falling a bit short of the critical understanding of "the point" yourself if you think this is simply a case of a tragic past with issues that need to be worked out in therapy, as is the case with most of the other Primarchs.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.


Again, lolwut? Sanguinius was found as an infant and spared from death by the compassion of the people who found him, nothing to do with "influence" there. He grew to adulthood in the span of a year and because of what are basically primarch superpowers allowing him to survive without radiation suits, and his angelic wings, and his ability to singhle-handedly fight and kill any of the threats that tried to attack his tribe he became their leader and later united all the other tribes as well. No "influence" there either. Fulgrim was likewise found as a child by a trio of miners and one of them tried to kill him but was shot dead before he could by the others, who then convinced the planetary leaders to let them raise Fulgrim as their own child instead of executing him like they did with other orphans. Not much influence there either. His success as a worker and an engineer is what lead him to leadership of the planet, not "influence". I don't know that Corvus, Sanguinius, and Magnus having superpowers that none of the other Primarchs did is a particularly persuasive argument against Angron. If Horus, Lorgar, GMan, Vulkan, and Ferrus were on Nuceria instead they would have been lobotomized like Angron was and just as ineffective at escapaing.

No that's not the point. It's bad writing. The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.


Its not bad writing at all. You couldn't possibly know if it was bad writing to begin with, because you clearly haven't read anything about Angron that wasn't published on wikipedia or whatever. The Primarchs weren't all created as equals, they were all created with specific purpose in mind for each of them, for one of them that purpose was leading the others - QED they were not all equals. Even if they were all created as equals, a big *point* of Angrons character is that the slavers destroyed the Emperors creation and turned him into something other than what he was intended to be.

Your argument in general has no basis. "Lorgar sucks but he did a thing so hes okay" is an opinion, not a fact. And Sanguinius - the primarch known for his perfect leadership - having poor commanding skills? Okay. He might not have been the best military strategist, but he was far from a poor commander or a bad general. Also don't know how you say "Angron was gak without them" (the butchers nails) when he was basically a child when he got the butchers nails. Angrons innate powers were basically stripped from him before they could even develop. We never saw what Angron was like without the butchers nails, because he had them from before he was able to fully develop. You would be saying that Corvus, Sanguinius, Magnus, Horus, Lorgar, GMan, Vulkan, Ferrus, etc. were gak without them too, because you would never have had the opportunity to see what they were capable of without them.

Gert wrote:Except none of the Primarchs were ever toddlers, they were young but at the very least just before puberty, not babies.


Thats not accurate.

They did find value in Angron being a demi-god, when he showed great promise during his first "match" it was proclaimed was going to be their greatest source of entertainment ever. He was literally called "The Unbeaten". That being said, escaping slavery is not an easy thing to do. Angron was young and didn't know strategy as Corax did, all he knew was how to kill. He also did escape with his army of gladiators when he eventually learned how to organise his fellow slaves.
You compare him to Primarchs who were raised in places where teaching was common and Angron didn't have that. He learned how to survive and how to kill. That's it. The Nails even robbed him of his ability to remove pain from others.


This is accurate. But the Nails (and prior lobotomizations) didn't just rob him of his empathic abilities, they robbed him of the ability to think, reason, lead, learn, etc. He wasn't the prodigy that the other Primarchs were because the ability to be that was taken from him before he could ever put it to use. Basically all of F.E.A.R.s arguments boil down to "Angron's a bad character because hes mentally handicapped and a failure", ignoring the part where that is literally the whole point of how he is written and his character and narrative arc. When you point that out, that becomes "thats bad writing" because apparently characters aren't allowed to be mentally handicapped or a failure, ever.

They absolutely were not created equally. Magnus was an immensely powerful Psyker second to the Emperor, Vulkan was functionally immortal, and Curze and Sanguinius could see the future. The other Primarchs had their strengths as well but by no means were they equal even when the Emperor intended for them to be crafted in His image.


100%

Angron being one dimensional when he has become a shard of Khorne is hilarious because who cares? His Crusade and HH era character is that we know where he ends up and how he could have changed his fate but deliberately chose not to because the path he walked was easier. He could have been a better person and forbid his sons the pain of the Nails but he was a broken man who wanted everyone else to feel his pain.
As for good WE characters, Lheorvine Ukris and Arrian Zorzi. Both really good.


Again, no. I don't know what part of "Angron is mentally handicapped" people on both sides of this argument aren't understanding/ Angron couldn't change that fact if he wanted to or deliberately choose to not be mentally handicapped, etc. Angron is a broken bastard, he gave his sons the Nails because he hated them and the Emperor, whereas his sons begged him for them so they could be more like him - Angron allowed it in a form of cruel irony and mockery of them and the Emperor. One could go a step further and say that the War Hounds represent Angrons own wasted potential - so he broke them the same way he was broken out of spite and self-loathing. An unbroken Angron leading the War Hounds would have been one of the most powerful Primarchs and legions in the Imperium. They ended up as World Eaters instead, as broken and monstrous as their leader.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I don't think any of those are correct - I think any Primarch put in Angron's situation, maybe with the exception of Sanguinius (and even then, he'd probably have his wings ripped from him) would have suffered the same fate. All those traits that you ascribe to other Primarch are either ones that Angron was more than capable of possessing (punching their way out), or ones that were learned/developed over time (Corax's shadewalking and Magnus's magic) or simply traits learned from their upbringings (Guilliman and Lorgar's oratory).

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.


This guy gets it.

Except he isn't actually beaten; that's one of the reasons Angron doesn't accept he lost when Lorgar tries to tell him that.

Angron beats Russ in a fight and then discovers that during that fight he's been surrounded and cut off by Russ' men. Sure.

But.....so what? They can't stop him without killing him and they don't have the authority to do that. Russ is bluffing and Angron sees that almost immediately. That's only him losing if he accepts he's lost and he doesn't.


And besides, having the opportunity to kill him stilling a win because - spinal level survival instinct aside (which is mostly suppressed by the nails anyway) he genuinely doesn't care. Russ' whole plan to intimidate him hinged on Angron giving a crap about his own survival and....he DOESNT. Which means Russ' lesson boils down to 'you've lost because I say you've lost' to which Angron quite rightly retorts 'and you still have a head and limbs because I let you crawl away in the dirt'.


As to character development, Angron does have plenty of moments. Yes, he's basically the Hulk when his nails fire, but his interactions with characters like Lotara Sarin and especially the Conqueror's scrymistress show what he WOULD have been like.


1000%, but to add - Angron being killed by Russ's boys would have been a win for Angron. He didn't care because he *wants* to die.

Exactly so. He even makes this exact point to Gulliman who literally got handed the position of heir apparent to an entire world and then has the hypocrisy to rant at him about courage and honour.
And besides, even then when dumped on by the entire world he still broke out and turned a bunch of prisoners into an army that required mobilising most of the planet's military to crush. That's basically the same as Corax, except Corax was never a prisoner - his enemies never k ew he existed until too late - whilst angron did it whilst busting out of a maximum security prison with brain crippling cybernetics in his head.


Yep. Quotes a good 'un too:

Spoiler:
Guilliman ignored him, aiming a gauntlet at Angron. ‘I’ve heard Lorgar’s puling heresies already. What brought you so low, brother? Did the machine in your skull finally refashion your loyalty into madness?’

‘Hnnngh. They let me dream. They give me peace. What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? Hnh? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?’

‘Childish,’ Guilliman sighed, gesturing to the burning, dying city. ‘Does it really come down to this? So pitiably childish.’

‘Childish? The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave.’ Angron stepped closer, chainswords revving harder. ‘Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilisation to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom?’

Angron sprayed bloody spit as he frothed the words. ‘And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives?’

The two primarchs met again. Guilliman’s powered gauntlets should have easily deflected Angron’s chainswords, but the World Eater’s strength drove his brother back step by step. Chain-teeth sprayed from the weapons as eagerly as the saliva from Angron’s lipless slit of a mouth.

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

Guilliman parried, forced back further by the storm of Angron’s blows. He finally landed a glancing blow, his fist pounding across Angron’s breastplate. The chain of Desh’elika skulls shattered, bone shards scattering across the dirt.

‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’


Note though, Guillimans response is F-tier, shows how out-of-touch he was. This is basically the trust-fund kid telling a lobotomized child-slave to "pull himself up by the bootstraps" and become a "self made man" like he did (using a small million dollar loan from his parents).

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chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't know there is much you can do to "deal with" having half your brain literally removed and an evidently unremovable implant installed that makes the function of the remaining half of your brain decidedly worse. F.E.A.R. may be missing the point entirely, but you're still falling a bit short of the critical understanding of "the point" yourself if you think this is simply a case of a tragic past with issues that need to be worked out in therapy, as is the case with most of the other Primarchs.

Angron could have not forced his sons into the Nails. He knew what they did and still had the mental capacity to know it wasn't going to do any good. He knew it would help his sons understand him, by making them go through the exact same torture he did. He knew it would kill his sons and he was fine with it.

Thats not accurate.

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

Again, no. I don't know what part of "Angron is mentally handicapped" people on both sides of this argument aren't understanding/ Angron couldn't change that fact if he wanted to or deliberately choose to not be mentally handicapped, etc. Angron is a broken bastard, he gave his sons the Nails because he hated them and the Emperor, whereas his sons begged him for them so they could be more like him - Angron allowed it in a form of cruel irony and mockery of them and the Emperor. One could go a step further and say that the War Hounds represent Angrons own wasted potential - so he broke them the same way he was broken out of spite and self-loathing. An unbroken Angron leading the War Hounds would have been one of the most powerful Primarchs and legions in the Imperium. They ended up as World Eaters instead, as broken and monstrous as their leader.

Angron still knew a lot of what he was doing was wrong, he just didn't care. He was broken but he wasn't stupid.

As for Guilliman's last response, it was sort of true to a degree. Angron never moved past Nuceria and preferred to stay buried in the past rather than move on in any way at all. He never had to forgive the Emperor for His mistake or forget the gladiators but forcing the Nails on the World Eaters was very much a conscious decision rooted in his inability to leave the past behind. But that's one of his flaws so it's all good. Well, not all good cos yknow, murder and stuff but.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 19:21:05


 
   
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Angron could have not forced his sons into the Nails. He knew what they did and still had the mental capacity to know it wasn't going to do any good. He knew it would help his sons understand him, by making them go through the exact same torture he did. He knew it would kill his sons and he was fine with it.


Knowing what they do doesn't really matter when your thinking is so compromised that it is questionable as to whether or not you can apply the reasoning needed to differentiate right from wrong or good from bad, let alone properly measure the consequences or consider anything beyond the immediate and directly correlated effects of a decision. We see this a lot from Angron where he offers justification or reasoning for what he feels is right or wrong (sometimes quite compellingly so) or why certain actions are correct, etc. but there are often glaring holes or omissions in his logic and comprehension, etc. The fight vs Russ is a good example, while circumstantially Angron did (in my view) win the altercation, in the grand scheme of things he actually lost and it highlights how he was a tactical/strategic failure - while he may have "won the battle" he still would have "lost the war". If he didn't have half of his brain missing and the other half firing on a few too few cylinders we might say that he was reckless, short-sighted, misguided, and impulsive. Based on some of the actions he takes we might also describe him as evil. But, because he is literally fethed in the head, its better to say that his thinking and reasoning are compromised and he is physically incapable of applying sound reasoning and logic to his decisionmaking (and in fact I would go so far as to say that he shouldn't have any decisionmaking responsibilities whatsoever because the literal state of his brain makes it unlikely for him to be able to exercise those responsibilities with any sort of good judgement, and its unreasonable to expect him to).

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.


Weird. In the US "infant" means baby and in a technical sense generally refers to someone under1-2 years of age (depending on which medical field, government agency, educational concept, etc. you're dealing with).


Angron still knew a lot of what he was doing was wrong, he just didn't care. He was broken but he wasn't stupid.

As for Guilliman's last response, it was sort of true to a degree. Angron never moved past Nuceria and preferred to stay buried in the past rather than move on in any way at all. He never had to forgive the Emperor for His mistake or forget the gladiators but forcing the Nails on the World Eaters was very much a conscious decision rooted in his inability to leave the past behind. But that's one of his flaws so it's all good. Well, not all good cos yknow, murder and stuff but.


I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong. Putting aside his physically compromised reasoning and decisionmaking capabilities, Angron -like all people and primarchs - is a product of the culture he was raised in. In Angrons case, it was a culture of severe inequality and enforced cruelty and suffering. I think Angron had the understanding that this was in general evil and wrong, and that the Butchers Nails were a terrible curse, but I don't think he had the faculties and clearmindedness to comprehend that directing their implantation into a group that had not only volunteered for it but actually begged him for it actually made him a bad guy or made him like the tyrants that he despised and railed against.

I think in his mind he was simply honoring their wish with the knowledge (which he warned them about) that it would make them miserable and that he would derive ironic pleasure from seeing them as miserable as he was as a result of their own wishes. I don't think he had the self-awareness to comprehend that that made him party to the crime and made him a bad guy. We see this a lot with Angron too, that he lacks the ability for self-awareness and self-reflection needed to understand that he is guilty of many of the things he accuses the High Riders and the Emperor of. He is essentially a "perpetual victim" stereotype, but unlike the "perpetual victims" in the real world who don't have physical brain damage and an obvious mental handicap, he has a pretty good reason for being the way he is and we need to analyze his actions and behaviors with that understanding in mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 19:55:42


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There is one thing about the Butcher's Nails that doesn't make sense to me - but it might be something I've missed somewhere.

If you're going to design a piece of technology to interact with a subject's brain, drive up their rage and adrenaline, etc, and get them addicted to killing - why the heck didn't your design include an effective kill switch in case something went wrong?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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The Butchers Nails didn't need one, the lifespan of those who received the Nails was generally very short and it was a terminal death-sentence for its recipients. Angron, being a Primarch and thus superhuman, survived much longer than he was expected to.

Also certainly helps that the Nucerians had no idea how the fething things worked as it was leftover DAoT tech (implied to have been originally intended for a function different from the one that it was being used in).

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I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong.


except we DO know it. we KNOW he viewed the nails as a horriable torturous device.

no this isn't a case of "well in my culture..." this is a case of Angron KNEW WHAT THE NAILS WHERE, KNEW WHAT THEY DID.
He pushed his legion getting them out of SPITE. this is WELL documented.

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 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.

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 Haighus wrote:
 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.


Depends where you are in the UK. Some places have infant school (between the ages of four and seven) and junior school (between seven and eleven), where others just have primary school (between four and eleven).
   
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 Haighus wrote:
 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.


In the US, kids between the ages of 1 and 3 are considered toddlers. Infant is generally used for the time before that.

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The point being that "infant", as shown here, is a very generic term that can mean many things. Plus when we add "Primarch" into the mix we're adding in a whole new layer of SciFi science and alchemy. Every one of the Primarchs grew rapidly by human standards and were already capable of beyond-human abilities at young ages. The context matters quite a bit so when F.E.A.R was talking about young Angron, normal expectations wouldn't apply because the Primarchs aren't normal humans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 22:48:46


 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong.


except we DO know it. we KNOW he viewed the nails as a horriable torturous device.

no this isn't a case of "well in my culture..." this is a case of Angron KNEW WHAT THE NAILS WHERE, KNEW WHAT THEY DID.
He pushed his legion getting them out of SPITE. this is WELL documented.


Agreed. In my opinion, a good tragedy requires some level of agency, some wrong decision(s) that led to the fall that, while understandable and/or in character for the character, could have been avoided if different decisions had been made.

Fulgrim never had to pick up the Laer blade
Perturabo never had to grind himself and his legion thanklessly against every brick wall they encountered
Curze could have tried to stop what he foresaw in his visions rather than succumbing to it
Angron never had to remain mired in the past and never had to take out his grievances of said past on his legion
Mortarion never had to follow in the footsteps of his fathers.
Magnus never had to make the deals with Tzeentch
Horus never had to trust the Chaos gods
Lorgar never had to follow his ideal of the Emperor rather than the Emperor himself
Alpharius could have learned to trust others

At least, that's my opinion and reading of the tragedies. (OK, don't know much about Mortarion TBH).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/22 06:42:15


 
   
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Absolutely. It's hard to say there's just one event in many cases (though with fulgrim it's close)

But Angron had opportunities to be more than he was. But unlike his brothers it generally wasn't him making the choices that took them away.

If he didn't have the nails - huge difference, obviously - but he was given the nails for being rebellious and I don't think his character would let him not be.

Equally if the Eaters of Cities had been saved - especially if the War Hounds did the saving - you'd have had a far more loyal and enthusiastic Angron. But that was the Emperor's choice, implied to be because he gave up on Angron more or less immediately on encountering him and understanding what had been done to him.

And angron being mired in the past was GOOD for the imperium. He makes it quite plain to russ he's spent the great crusade in a depressive funk where he can't summon the emotion to do anything but murder whatever target he's pointed at - and that if he had pulled himself out of it and started directing his own life choices, the likely option of taking out what he perceived as the biggest threat to human freedom and dignity would have kicked off the first inter-legionary war a few centuries early as he tried to

"Ascend the steps of the Palace and take the slave-taking bastard's head".

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It bears repeating that The Nails were not the be all and end all of Angrons Character.

He was Lobotomized and likely had severe sustained brain injury/trauma.

With just the nails it is doubtful that he would have forced the legion to take them themselves.

Also

The WE were not Angrons sons or brothers.
With the nails, with the brain injuries, with the means of his 'upbringing' and discovery AND with strangers he has no connection with at all claiming to want to know him...forcing the nails on the WE makes more sense than not.



   
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 Dysartes wrote:
There is one thing about the Butcher's Nails that doesn't make sense to me - but it might be something I've missed somewhere.

If you're going to design a piece of technology to interact with a subject's brain, drive up their rage and adrenaline, etc, and get them addicted to killing - why the heck didn't your design include an effective kill switch in case something went wrong?
These are arrogant rich people we are talking about; for beings like that there's no way a mere slave could ever be a threat to individuals as wealthy & powerful as they, they wouldn't even consider the possibility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/23 03:04:31


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 F.E.A.R. wrote:

Angron knocked Leman on his ass, however Leman baited Angron into a kill zone. He was surrounded by guns that would blow him to shreds in seconds. Despite the WE fury in combat and wining in kill count, they had no strategies and Angron was at Lemans mercy. Leman should've done what should have been done before, press the "eliminate" button but he just couldn't bring himself to kills brother and retreated. After this Angron thought he won against Leman and the SW. In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.


You might want to learn how to read instead of repeating what I say back to me.

Angron being a worse general than Leman Russ (any other primarch really) is not in question. You mocked the statement that "nobody can 1v1 Angron" by saying he gets clapped by all his brothers. Harping on about how Leman Russ is a superior general and baited Angron into a kill zone after getting his ass beat one on one with him does not disprove the claim you were mocking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/23 05:39:03


 
   
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Indeed. Its actually Russ being equally arrogant here: yes, Angron's in a kill zone. But so what? Pointing a gun at world eater is meaningless unless you use it, and the rout don't because they can't

Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Russ is the one who lands with no real plan if Angron says 'no'.


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locarno24 wrote:
Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Now that's a great typo (or autocorrect moment)...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Now that's a great typo (or autocorrect moment)...
I mean I'm already working on the paint scheme for my new loyalist WE chapter!

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Regarding Primarch size, we have Corax recalling emerging from his birthing pod, meeting a slave girl whi gave him her toy, speaking with her, ripping the head off the guard who appeared to torture her, and offering the head to her as a gift.

Reaching up. To a malnourished 6 year old.

Recall the Primarchs were larger than Astartes. Means yes, they started at a maximum as toddlers but outgrew that probably with days or weeks.

Angron's crashed pod was found with him unconscious but alive amid a slaughtered party of Eldar, with multiple wounds to the fore. So a slaver took him and enslaved him.

Corax drew the positive attention of the humans who found him. The youthful Russ the same. Fulgrim induced the colonists who found him to love him. Sanguinius the same. Primarchs pretty clearly had some kind of latent psychic "love me" vibe as children.

Angron was found unconscious and tossed into a gladiator pit where it wouldn't matter. Which makes sense given that this baby/toddler jyst slaughtered an armed war party with his bare hands in a culture embracing slavery and gladiatorial combat. Feral savagery was expected.

Also, Angron survived the Nails- and remained quadi-lucid- due to his brain and the AI of the Nails adapting to each other, with Angton slowly losing. He was able to get other Nail implanted gladiators to work together- possibly his latent brotherhood empathy power, which keeps all the World Eaters from killing each other.

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Also bares mentioning that Angron was beloved by the masses... as an enslaved gladiator. Its entirely possible the latent "love me" vibe they gave off backfired, as by the time he was restored to consciousness and health for that vibe to work he was already placed into the context of slavery and gladiatorial fighting. Rather than the vibe going "love me as your leader" it was going "love me as your source of entertainment" - and it worked.

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BrainFireBob wrote:
Regarding Primarch size, we have Corax recalling emerging from his birthing pod, meeting a slave girl whi gave him her toy, speaking with her, ripping the head off the guard who appeared to torture her, and offering the head to her as a gift.

Reaching up. To a malnourished 6 year old.

Recall the Primarchs were larger than Astartes. Means yes, they started at a maximum as toddlers but outgrew that probably with days or weeks.

Angron's crashed pod was found with him unconscious but alive amid a slaughtered party of Eldar, with multiple wounds to the fore. So a slaver took him and enslaved him.

Corax drew the positive attention of the humans who found him. The youthful Russ the same. Fulgrim induced the colonists who found him to love him. Sanguinius the same. Primarchs pretty clearly had some kind of latent psychic "love me" vibe as children.

Angron was found unconscious and tossed into a gladiator pit where it wouldn't matter. Which makes sense given that this baby/toddler jyst slaughtered an armed war party with his bare hands in a culture embracing slavery and gladiatorial combat. Feral savagery was expected.

Also, Angron survived the Nails- and remained quadi-lucid- due to his brain and the AI of the Nails adapting to each other, with Angton slowly losing. He was able to get other Nail implanted gladiators to work together- possibly his latent brotherhood empathy power, which keeps all the World Eaters from killing each other.


We actually have a listed height for a Primarch. The Lion outside of his armour is stated in one book to be over three meters tall, or about ten feet.
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
We actually have a listed height for a Primarch. The Lion outside of his armour is stated in one book to be over three meters tall, or about ten feet.

I remember someone did some height calculations based on the all the artworks were Primarchs were depicted standing side-by-side with each other or with normal humans. 10 foot seems to have been about the median with Alpharius noticeably shorter around 8 foot (short enough to pass for a tall Astartes). At the upper end Sanguinius and Mortarion come it around 12 feet, the Khan at 14 feet and Magnus topping out the lot at 15 feet. Angron seems to be around 10 feet as well but is usually depicted as hunched over due to the pain of the nails.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Pitiful, more than pathetic. There is a distinction between the two. In terms of actually pathetic I would rate Curze, Perturabo, and Corax much higher. Angron is what he was made into, you can't fault him for being who and what he is because he has no choice in the matter and no capacity to change it. This is uniquely and singularly his plight. In truth the Emperor should have just put him out of his misery the moment it became apparent that the Butchers Nails had permanently damaged him and that he was no longer fully functional. That is pitiful.

The Emperor does consider this MoM but concludes with this line.
'A compromised Primarch is still a Primarch' The Emperor mused

The Emperor knows that the Nails will kill Angron eventually. At least by letting him lead his legion he would be contributing to the Great Crusade. He would be able to help humanity and then hopefully die gloriously somewhere. In a couple of books it is implied that the GC has to be conducted in a hurry because the window of opportunity created by the Fall of the Eldar is quite narrow. If humanity does not conquer the Galaxy now, it will never be able to. Orks will reproduce out fo control and swamp the Galaxy or some other Xenos may rise to fill the power vacuum. The Emperor made some questionable decisions because he knew time was not on his side. If humanity was to survive, the GC needed to succeed quickly. Thus even damaged tools like Angron had to be pressed into service.

 Da Boss wrote:
I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem.

Installing the Nails is not a problem, it is just that it is a one-way process. In Angron's case, vital parts of his brain were surgically removed and replaced with the Nails meaning he cannot survive without them. Whether the reproduction Nails used in the rest of the World Eaters are the same is not clear. The only ones who tried to remove them were the Librarians and they were killed by their own backfiring psychic powers.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/16 09:23:48


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I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.

The Imperium has shown an extremely high level of neurological implantation, with examples of the Ad Mech replacing parts of and augmenting brains being commonplace amongst higher-ranking priesthood. I think it is quite plausible that a replacement for the nails could be made that would sustain Angron's life and alter his personality. Inconsistent medical care for plot purposes is hardly a feature unique to 40k though.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.

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 Karhedron wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.



Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.


They aren't really "life sustaining" functions, rather the Butchers Nails are doing the exact opposite of that. Prior to implanting the Nails the Nucerians scooped out sections of Angrons brain, so without a replacement for it Angron is basically some sort of vegetable, also the Nails are wired deep into Angrons brain, spine, and probably some other internal organs and have rewired several of Angrons biological functions (release and response of various hormones and neurochemicals, etc.), so even though Big-E very clearly can remove them (per his own statement), he doesn't necessarily have a means of restoring/repairing Angron or making him functional again, or more functional than he already was. There is time/cost/risk involved with attempting it, but theres no reason to because from Big-Es standpoint Angron is still the tool/blunt instrument he needs for his vision to be fulfilled, even if Angron is less than what was originally intended.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.


Exactly.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Karhedron wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.



Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.


They aren't really "life sustaining" functions, rather the Butchers Nails are doing the exact opposite of that. Prior to implanting the Nails the Nucerians scooped out sections of Angrons brain, so without a replacement for it Angron is basically some sort of vegetable, also the Nails are wired deep into Angrons brain, spine, and probably some other internal organs and have rewired several of Angrons biological functions (release and response of various hormones and neurochemicals, etc.), so even though Big-E very clearly can remove them (per his own statement), he doesn't necessarily have a means of restoring/repairing Angron or making him functional again, or more functional than he already was. There is time/cost/risk involved with attempting it, but theres no reason to because from Big-Es standpoint Angron is still the tool/blunt instrument he needs for his vision to be fulfilled, even if Angron is less than what was originally intended.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.


Exactly.

Well, the implications of the quote above is that the nails crudely replace certain basic brain functions, that would lead to death if the nails are removed now those bits of brain are lopped out. Obviously, the nails are a death sentence, so the "life-sustaining" functions are more of a temporary stay whilst the rest of the nails do their work, rather than a long-term replacement.

Otherwise, agreed. Tl;dr the Emperor is a utilitarian nob.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Yeah? The Emperor does whatever He can to achieve His vision. The ends always justify the means with Him.
   
 
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