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When referring to the Imperium.

Yep, the Catholic Church is definitely one of the things being saterized by 40k.

ccs wrote:
Yep, the Catholic Church is definitely one of the things being saterized by 40k.

That list is mind-boggling in its magnitude!


My main problem with the current lore is it ISNT satirical anymore.

It may be self-deprecating, but satirical it is not.

But that makes no sense, one of the main trait of catholicism, one which over popes went to wars was the separation of state and church. It is the eastern churchs trait to have bishops, priests etc be goverment functionaries.

In another aspects, being the acceptence of divergent versions of cult worship is more kin to various protestant churchs, the catholicism. Cathoclicism does not accept straying from one common form. Till Vatican II it wasn't even allowed to use local languages for worship, and any local church past XVth century had to be allowed by a special pope bulla to use local languages outside of liturgy. And even then the anwser often was, that the language isn't sofisticated enough to us pick one of the 4-5 accepted languages. The imperial church on the other hand does not care about the form of cult, the emperor can be a son god, a death god, a warrior falcon, he can change sex etc All the church cares for is taxation and who appoints the local ranks of priest hood and the eternal war between the planet church officials vs the curates of the flag posted in the imperial fleets.

There is also a distinct lack of Pope and the clergy structure is too loose and independed for it to be anything near catholicism.

The imperial church also has a ton of rights, the catholic church never had aside for the Italy and some of the elector countries. It can pass death sentances on its own on people from all ranks of society.

it is more about what Pop Culture thinks the Christian Churches are (and that they are all the same) rather than what the catholic church actual is

Space Evangelicals would fit better

Karol wrote:
But that makes no sense, one of the main trait of catholicism, one which over popes went to wars was the separation of state and church. It is the eastern churchs trait to have bishops, priests etc be goverment functionaries.

In another aspects, being the acceptence of divergent versions of cult worship is more kin to various protestant churchs, the catholicism. Cathoclicism does not accept straying from one common form. Till Vatican II it wasn't even allowed to use local languages for worship, and any local church past XVth century had to be allowed by a special pope bulla to use local languages outside of liturgy. And even then the anwser often was, that the language isn't sofisticated enough to us pick one of the 4-5 accepted languages. The imperial church on the other hand does not care about the form of cult, the emperor can be a son god, a death god, a warrior falcon, he can change sex etc All the church cares for is taxation and who appoints the local ranks of priest hood and the eternal war between the planet church officials vs the curates of the flag posted in the imperial fleets.

There is also a distinct lack of Pope and the clergy structure is too loose and independed for it to be anything near catholicism.

The imperial church also has a ton of rights, the catholic church never had aside for the Italy and some of the elector countries. It can pass death sentances on its own on people from all ranks of society.

You can satirize something without exactly copying it. Satire often picks one or two specific traits and amplifies/exaggerates them. In other cases, it's merely the case that certain influences have been taken from a given thing and woven into a much broader whole. I think it's probably more accurate to say the Imperium takes some of its inspiration from extreme religious zealotry, mostly of the type displayed in Europe around the time of the Crusades, and mixes in other elements related to that zealotry, like calling their secret police Inquisitors. There's not necessarily a direct correlation, but the inspirations are pretty obvious.

It's a satirical pastiche of what modern (Protestant/secular) British people think mediaeval Catholic Europe was like. It owes far more to Monty Python than to the actual Roman Catholic church.

Its only the hypocritical grandeur really isnt it?

Dai wrote:
Its only the hypocritical grandeur really isnt it?

And the gothic aesthetic.

 Hotzenplotz wrote:

saving

Karol wrote:


There is also a distinct lack of Pope and the clergy structure is too loose and independed for it to be anything near catholicism.

Not wanting to add to much to the discussion but the Ecclesiarch is basically the Pope. He's the leader of the imperial church, he has a lot of power and if you read his description and how he behaves in War of the Beast he's clearly a satire of hypocritical popes of the middleages.

The inquisition

The cult of death and martyrdom and the skull/skeleton symbology that comes from it

Saints, reliquaries, icons, and other religious fetishism

Bloated, international religious bureaucracy mired in politics and money

Giant hats and ridiculous outfits

Cults of bodily mortification, and self-purification through suffering, including flagellation

None of these are necessarily unique to Catholicism, but their inclusion in 40k is a very obvious pastiche of Catholic images and historical elements.

Karol wrote:
But that makes no sense, one of the main trait of catholicism, one which over popes went to wars was the separation of state and church. It is the eastern churchs trait to have bishops, priests etc be goverment functionaries.

Don't believe everything you've heard in Sunday school. It's absolutely trivial to say, but the Catholic Church interfered in state affairs quite often, and wielded political power for both ideological and expedient purposes. The idea of the separation of church and state is much more recent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's a satirical pastiche of what modern (Protestant/secular) British people think mediaeval Catholic Europe was like. It owes far more to Monty Python than to the actual Roman Catholic church.

Keep in mind the UK has some of that anti-Spain propaganda still in their education system that portrays Catholics as psychotic. But part of what GW was doing was mashing that up (including the "Inquisition") with aspects of the UK's right-wing ideology to make the point that the villain of their historical narrative looked suspiciously similar to the UK of the present day.

Just in general, though, I'd avoid linking the Imperium of Man/Ecclesiarchy too tightly to modern Catholicism because the Imperium takes the worst inhumane excesses of the Catholic Church and takes that as a starting point. Modern Catholics, while having some viewpoints I find reprehensible, aren't calling for the murder of babies who look different, for example, like the Imperium is.

I don’t think it’s Catholicism specifics that is reflected in 40K but a general pastiche of how all the countries in Europe at one time I. Their history have had an unpleasant intertwining of state and church and used it to oppress people, even if it’s just a form of social conditioning.

It would have been great if the inquisition wore bright red robes and tortured people by making them sit in a comfy chair

does 40K have Space Mormons? Space Hindu?

Karol wrote:

There is also a distinct lack of Pope .

some reading for you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend_of_the_Spanish_Inquisition

Karol: The Catholic Church was heavily involved with the state in Ireland, making prisons for women who got pregnant outside of marriage, confiscating children into "mother and baby homes" with huge mortality rates for the children in their "care" and influencing the policy of the country massively in many aspects. They also owned almost all of the hospitals and 90%+ of the schools and had laws allowing them to run them with a "catholic ethos" (mostly kicking out women who didn't follow their restrictive ideas of moral behaviour).

That's my view of the Catholic Church. GW has a typical Protestant British view which focuses on the excesses and not as much on the better parts of catholicism (stuff like the Jesuits and the general focus on the dignity of human beings regardless of their "productivity") but it's also that the Imperium is supposed to be the Holy Roman Empire in space, which means taking some of the trappings of the Holy Roman Empire in terms of architecture and political structure.

It's also really incorrect Karol to think that the catholic church is a monolith.
Indeed despite or more like because of the nature of the absolute power of the pope things like syncretism exist, cue f.e Mexico and south amreican catholicism being very alien compared to spanish catholicims which is completely diffrent once again from french catholicism and middle european one. (there's the joke that spanish catholics shouldn't be described even as monotheists.)

I went to Parochial school and everything everyone here is saying is true.
The RCC is responsible for a myriad of war crimes and the Spanish Inquisition gave birth to some of the worst methods of torture I have ever seen.

Nothing says piety like torturing another living being...

Sometimes modern terms apply great with 40k

I always say my IG/SM is having a Jihad in a narrative sense similar to that in Dune and in middle eastern cultures.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Sometimes modern terms apply great with 40k

I always say my IG/SM is having a Jihad in a narrative sense similar to that in Dune and in middle eastern cultures.

As long as it's Butlerian...

Considering how the Imperial Cult can vary in how it's practiced from planet to planet, I would love to see an Orthodox-themed Ecclesiarchy.

Hecaton wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that makes no sense, one of the main trait of catholicism, one which over popes went to wars was the separation of state and church. It is the eastern churchs trait to have bishops, priests etc be goverment functionaries.

Don't believe everything you've heard in Sunday school. It's absolutely trivial to say, but the Catholic Church interfered in state affairs quite often, and wielded political power for both ideological and expedient purposes. The idea of the separation of church and state is much more recent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's a satirical pastiche of what modern (Protestant/secular) British people think mediaeval Catholic Europe was like. It owes far more to Monty Python than to the actual Roman Catholic church.

Keep in mind the UK has some of that anti-Spain propaganda still in their education system that portrays Catholics as psychotic. But part of what GW was doing was mashing that up (including the "Inquisition") with aspects of the UK's right-wing ideology to make the point that the villain of their historical narrative looked suspiciously similar to the UK of the present day.

Just in general, though, I'd avoid linking the Imperium of Man/Ecclesiarchy too tightly to modern Catholicism because the Imperium takes the worst inhumane excesses of the Catholic Church and takes that as a starting point. Modern Catholics, while having some viewpoints I find reprehensible, aren't calling for the murder of babies who look different, for example, like the Imperium is.

You ever been to Britain? Yiu have some odd ideas about it.

Andykp wrote:

You ever been to Britain? Yiu have some odd ideas about it.

Yes...? What are you getting at.

Hecaton wrote:

Andykp wrote:

You ever been to Britain? Yiu have some odd ideas about it.

Yes...? What are you getting at.

Just find your description of the UK as odd? Never sure how accurate the flags on dakka are to say where a poster is but I don’t recognise your description of the uk, as a lifelong resident I Find it at odds with what is actually happening here. But maybe you have different experiences from me so who knows.

"Present day" when 40K was being written as (amongst other things!) a satire of UK politics was late 1980s anyway, not literally now now.

It's maybe more accurate to say the original themes of 40K were established as part of the whole counter-cultural punk/anarchist reaction to Thatcher's Britain.

It was a time when Warhammer Fantasy had an army of heroic dwarf miners led by 'Arka Zargul', let's not forget.

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Present day" when 40K was being written as (amongst other things!) a satire of UK politics was late 1980s anyway, not literally now now.

It's maybe more accurate to say the original themes of 40K were established as part of the whole counter-cultural punk/anarchist reaction to Thatcher's Britain.

It was a time when Warhammer Fantasy had an army of heroic dwarf miners led by 'Arka Zargul', let's not forget.

I doubt half+ of the readers here have any context for Arka Zargul....

Read this for context. Particularly the section under the McDeath cover.
https://wearethemutants.com/2019/01/14/when-warhammer-was-radical-the-egalitarian-origins-of-the-fantasy-battle-game/