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Running Carcharadon's and i want a contingency of 5-10 Terminators as Tyberos' bodyguard cuz lore wise that's what he has. I'm running it as a Ravenguard's Successor and will also be running 3-6 Bladeguard Vets. What i would like to know is what Terminators after AOC are worth it? I used to see a lot of Thunder Hammer/SH, but now i'm seeing more Lightning Claws and i'm not sure on the exact reason why? My plan was to get an Assault T-Squad and just go full Thunder Hammer/SH, but that seems costy and i'm not sure on the points cost effectiveness of it.

AoC doesn't work with Storm shields, Combat shields, Relic shields, or relics that replace these.

Had my first(?) game using loyalist marines of 9th edition the other day. Fielded two large squads of tactical terminators in a casual match against necrons. They were a real frustration for my opponent to take down. They saved on a 2+ against almost all of his shooting (he was running a silver tide). It took him 4 rounds of shooting his entire army at them to finally kill them off, and most of the losses were actually from his skorpekh destroyers (AP-3 and -4?) in the fight phase.

That's with me using a Death Watch psychic power to give one squad a 5+ Feel No Pain most turns and probably piloting the army badly. My overall impression is that they're generally worth it against anything AP-2 or worse as you're saving on a 2+ against such attacks when standing on cover.

The main shortcoming I found with them (from my sample size of a single game) was that their offense was just OK. Getting 4 shots per guy is pretty good but not amazing against an army with T4 and decent saves. Only hitting on a 4+ in melee with power fists really made them struggle against my opponents scarabs and warriors; they were better but not amazing against his destroyers.

So overall, a perfectly good unit, but one that you're probably taking for its defense rather than its offense.

I can't really speak on assault terminators. I imagine that the reason you're seeing fewer storm shields is that Armor of Contempt doesn't stack with it. So you're getting less value out of the shield than you used to. Plus, the to-hit penalty on the hammer means you're vulnerable to tarpitting just like my power fist termies. The lightning claws hitting more often and with more attacks means you'd be able to carve through the scarabs and warriors that bogged me down.

If you desperately want Lightning Claws, just take it on the Sergeant to take advantage of the extra attacks I guess.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If you desperately want Lightning Claws, just take it on the Sergeant to take advantage of the extra attacks I guess.

Interesting. My gut instinct would be to do the reverse. Putting a hammer on the sergeant gives you an extra high-strength/damage attack for your points and leaves you with a threat against the occassional vehicle/monster you might have to face. But giving the rest of the squad claws keeps you safe from tarpitting, makes you better against a lot of 1 and 2 Wound units, and saves you a bunch of points.

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If you desperately want Lightning Claws, just take it on the Sergeant to take advantage of the extra attacks I guess.

Interesting. My gut instinct would be to do the reverse. Putting a hammer on the sergeant gives you an extra high-strength/damage attack for your points and leaves you with a threat against the occassional vehicle/monster you might have to face. But giving the rest of the squad claws keeps you safe from tarpitting, makes you better against a lot of 1 and 2 Wound units, and saves you a bunch of points.

I mean when you're really THAT concerned about tarpitting when you already have Tyberos to throw out 6 attacks, you probably aren't gonna just want a couple more attacks with a Lightning Claw, you're looking for assurance. On top of that I'm assuming you're gonna be using the full reroll on the Terminators each turn, so what's an extra attack with the Thunder Hammer there?

Truth be told you don't want Lightning Claws to begin with, but that's my justification in your position.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If you desperately want Lightning Claws, just take it on the Sergeant to take advantage of the extra attacks I guess.

Interesting. My gut instinct would be to do the reverse. Putting a hammer on the sergeant gives you an extra high-strength/damage attack for your points and leaves you with a threat against the occassional vehicle/monster you might have to face. But giving the rest of the squad claws keeps you safe from tarpitting, makes you better against a lot of 1 and 2 Wound units, and saves you a bunch of points.

I mean when you're really THAT concerned about tarpitting when you already have Tyberos to throw out 6 attacks, you probably aren't gonna just want a couple more attacks with a Lightning Claw, you're looking for assurance. On top of that I'm assuming you're gonna be using the full reroll on the Terminators each turn, so what's an extra attack with the Thunder Hammer there?

Truth be told you don't want Lightning Claws to begin with, but that's my justification in your position.

Might i ask what you suggest instead of Lightning Claws or TH? I'm genuinely curious. I did think about just throwing the TH/SH on the Seargent and just running Claw/Shield or Claw/Claw. I think lorewise all his bodyguard run claw/shield or claw/claw, but the writing is a bit wierd to be sure.

Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Relic Terminators with SB and LC, chain fist and SB on Sergeant.

Terminator Squad with chainfists.

Terminator Assault Squad with LCs and TH SS on Sergeant.

Spending the extra points on storm shields isn't really worth it, you could just get an extra Terminator by dropping 3 THs. SS only help against AP-4 or better, -5 or better in cover and even then it's a massive increase in price. You're getting more than twice as many hits with lightning claws.

Things change a lot when you talk about Space Wolves and Blood Angels because of extra hits/attacks making THs better and the option for SW Terminators to have LC SS Terminators to tank and TH SB Terminators to deal damage. THs become a total joke for White Scars.

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

He is saying you soak the AP-1 wounds on the LC. But AP-3 becomes AP-2 with AoC and turns a 2+ to a 4+ Sv, which is exactly the same as AP-3 turning 1+ into 4+.

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

But with AoC do we need Storm Shields? AP-3 becomes a 4+ save now, just like the case in which we had a SS before AoC. It's only against AP-4 or better than SSs matter now, but even then the terminators would just roll for a decent save anyway. AP-5 is extremely uncommon and vs AP-4 termies still roll a 5+ instead of the 4+ granted by the shield, which isn't considerably worse. But without shields every model in the unit benefits from AoC, which can be more useful than fielding a bunch of 4++ with no AoC. My orks for example can't possibly field many AP-4 weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

Because the SS already adds +1 to the model's save.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

Someone might have run some maths and realize they would be impossible to kill. If a termi on cover already saves at 0+, had the AoC applied also with SShields, that would have been a -1armour save. Or on different words, a -4 ap required to bring the save to 3+.

Run relic terminators with LC and stormbolters, nice and cheap, decent firepower and lots of attacks.
You can also trade out some LC for chainfists for good AP and decent damage as needed.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

Yeah, there was a time when 2+ invulnerable saves with rerolls were a thing.
That was not fun. At all.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

Not only balance. Rolling a hundred dice or so just to kill one immortal terminator at most isn't fun, even if things would be super balanced that way.

 Blackie wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

Not only balance. Rolling a hundred dice or so just to kill one immortal terminator at most isn't fun, even if things would be super balanced that way.

Which later on is revived by a random apothecary...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

You don't think there's a wild inconsistency?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

You don't think there's a wild inconsistency?

No since, storm shields give you a 4++.

If they gave only +1 to saves yes there would be.

honestly AoC would be unnesscary if GW stopped just giving everyone AP 2 Damage 5 re-rollable weapons (obvious exaggeration here) as their basic infantry gun!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just run all TH/SS outside one dude to soak AP-1 and AP-2.

Sorry if I'm missing something. Doesn't AoC already cover AP-1?

Storm Shield stops you from benefitting from AoC for whatever stupid reason.

for balance.... unkillable units arent fun to play against.

You don't think there's a wild inconsistency?

No since, storm shields give you a 4++.

If they gave only +1 to saves yes there would be.

The problem, specifically for Terminators, is those Storm Shields only provide any benefit against AP-4 or better and even then it's just +1 to your Invulnerable save. Hopefully GW can sort this in the next points update, as a lot of units with AoC are paying too much for SS now.

I do agree that GW seems to be chasing its own tail at times. Primaris Marines with 2 Wounds were brought in for 8th edition to toughen up Marines and make them how they were supposed to be. Then everyone started spamming plasma and 9th edition dialled this up even further with even heavy bolters getting 2D. Now GW is having to hand out buffs like Duty Eternal and Armour of Contempt to try and claw back some durability for Marines.

So if I run a squad of 10 relic terminators I think my idea is to run combi-Bolters/LC, Sergeant with PF/Plasma and 2 with reaper auto cannons and LC. The only problem I can see is that the LC being dmg 1 means I’m not that great against other 2 wound armies.

Rahdok wrote:
So if I run a squad of 10 relic terminators I think my idea is to run combi-Bolters/LC, Sergeant with PF/Plasma and 2 with reaper auto cannons and LC. The only problem I can see is that the LC being dmg 1 means I’m not that great against other 2 wound armies.

That looks a pretty good loadout. LCs are weaker vs 2-wound armies but they are better at clearing lighter units with +1A and no penalty to-Hit. You could drop in a couple of Chainfists to cut through heavier armour.

 Karhedron wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
So if I run a squad of 10 relic terminators I think my idea is to run combi-Bolters/LC, Sergeant with PF/Plasma and 2 with reaper auto cannons and LC. The only problem I can see is that the LC being dmg 1 means I’m not that great against other 2 wound armies.

That looks a pretty good loadout. LCs are weaker vs 2-wound armies but they are better at clearing lighter units with +1A and no penalty to-Hit. You could drop in a couple of Chainfists to cut through heavier armour.

Do you know where I can get a Relic Terminator Kit I’ve been googling around and I’m just finding assault terminators? Am I dumb?

Rahdok wrote:
So if I run a squad of 10 relic terminators I think my idea is to run combi-Bolters/LC, Sergeant with PF/Plasma and 2 with reaper auto cannons and LC. The only problem I can see is that the LC being dmg 1 means I’m not that great against other 2 wound armies.

On the other hand they're much better than 2D weapons vs those units that have -1 damage.

Rahdok wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
So if I run a squad of 10 relic terminators I think my idea is to run combi-Bolters/LC, Sergeant with PF/Plasma and 2 with reaper auto cannons and LC. The only problem I can see is that the LC being dmg 1 means I’m not that great against other 2 wound armies.

That looks a pretty good loadout. LCs are weaker vs 2-wound armies but they are better at clearing lighter units with +1A and no penalty to-Hit. You could drop in a couple of Chainfists to cut through heavier armour.

Do you know where I can get a Relic Terminator Kit I’ve been googling around and I’m just finding assault terminators? Am I dumb?

Theyre not for sale on the GW site anymore, they used to be the cataphractii/Tartaros kits from horus heresy.

Mmmm I’ll have to look around or something then, what could I use in place of them?

You're looking for Cataphractii, I think the name was only changed in the most recent FW book. I am pretty sure they were released in a starter book a long while back. You can find them on some non-GW sites.