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Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




(I imagine this thread won't get as much traction as the other one because it isn't as controversial, but here goes).

One of the interesting features of the depiction of human characters in 40k is the ubiquity of cybernetics - from entire limbs, eyes, down the weirdly common tubes plugged into the side of people's heads. Culturally, the Imperium doesn't particularly care about making cybernetics and bionic replacement limbs look natural - the Adeptus Mechanicus of course wears their augmentations proudly, but even wealthy nobility in the Imperium seem to be more interested in decorating their bionics rather than making them blend in. What's more, bionic limbs are treated as a matter of course in the setting, and some characters actively seek them out without needing an injury or deficiency beforehand.

Two other fantastical settings that have opinions on this subject that I can think of are Shadowrun and Star Wars. In Shadowrun's case, the more implants you get results in losses of essence, which is both your ability to use magic and your mental and spiritual well-being. In Star Wars, bionics like Darth Vader's are supposed to inhibit one's ability to use the Force, and as per George Lucas himself the Emperor was looking to upgrade to a less damaged Luke from his father, due to Luke only having a bionic hand but Darth Vader being in an ambulatory walking lung. In both cases, the abilities that are inhibited due to the loss of limbs or bodily integrity are not just capabilities per se; nobody's going to bat an eye if someone with a missing leg has trouble getting around. The abilities that are inhibited are instead signatory of spiritual well-being, compassion, virtue, and so on, with the implication that people who are missing their original, biological limbs are not only missing parts physically but not whole spiritually, which is an extremely bigoted outlook, in my view.

So 40k has none of that. There's no evidence that having cybernetics inhibits your ability to use psychic powers (though of course the Adeptus Mechanicus are generally not fans of psychic powers and they love bionics). Hell, sometimes psychic hoods are implanted. So it avoids a number of bigoted ableist takes and embraces the idea that people who are missing limbs or otherwise in need of assistance devices are just as whole as the rest of humanity (and just as capable of being a bigoted shitbag, but hey, it's 40k).
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Those are fantasy realities with fantasy "physics". If a lost arm degrades your ability to use the force, then that is a fact within the setting. I fail to see how this could be bigoted?

The definition from Merriam Webster:
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Nope, still not seeing it.

I wouldn't look for moral advice in fantasy stories that were written 30-40 years ago, back when none of the current social discussion existed.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
Those are fantasy realities with fantasy "physics". If a lost arm degrades your ability to use the force, then that is a fact within the setting. I fail to see how this could be bigoted?


Because the ability to use the force is also portrayed as function of spiritual strength, inner virtue, courage, etc.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Nope, still not seeing it.

I wouldn't look for moral advice in fantasy stories that were written 30-40 years ago, back when none of the current social discussion existed.


Star Wars is very much relevant in terms of moralistic storytelling; I assume you're not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work?
   
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The way the company dunks on the nazi fanbois is the bare mimimum i suppose.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Hecaton wrote:
Because the ability to use the force is also portrayed as function of spiritual strength, inner virtue, courage, etc.

And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Hecaton wrote:
Star Wars is very much relevant in terms of moralistic storytelling; I assume you're not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work?

As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 10:31:15


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Hecaton seems to have signed off and, being familiar with the issue, I’ll try explaining. SW uses the “Hero’s Journey” tropes that Campbell believed formed a common moral/narrative structure, underpinning mythologies from all over the world across thousands of years. (Although arguably, he was just reading Jungian archetypes onto various mythologies.) In essence, the idea was that SW participated in the “timelessness” of this “universal” myth.

In SW-proper, i.e., the story about Darth Vader, losing limbs and becoming “more machine than man” is associated with being corrupted and losing connection to the moral “Force” that shapes the heroic destiny. If you tried to consider these artistic symbols literally, you might misconstrue the theme as being ableist.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...
[Thumb - temp.jpg]

   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 11:34:35



 
   
Made in gb
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The dark behind the eyes.

It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!

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Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

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You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.

Terra itself does not care wether you prosecute or discriminate against whoever for whatever reason, as long as you pay your tithes. Your planet can have the brightest democracies (I imagine some Ultramarine planets are going in that direction) and the darkest hell holes. Only your tithe is important. And following the Imperial creed, as you said.

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 Sim-Life wrote:
I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.


This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly. We’ve seen no evidence of gendered roles, or non-cis being treated persecuted at all. Yes, some Guard regiments are single sex. But that’s a Regimental rule, not an Imperium one. And as we see in the Cain novels, it won’t necessarily stop two single sex regiments being merged up to fighting strength, creating a mixed sex regiment.

In-universe, even single sex organisations have reasoning for them. Be it a way around a rule (Sisters of Battle) a limitation of technology (Custodes and Astartes) or a quirk of genetics/possibly cloning (Escher and Sisters of Silence). We may not, from the outside looking in with modern sensibilities think they’re good reasons. But they are reasons nonetheless.

Crucially, there’s nothing in the background to even suggest The Emperor limited himself to male Astartes by design. Rather whatever technoarcana he had access to at the time required the Y Chromosome. We can reasonably infer this to be the case (we’re told it has to be male candidates, but never really why) because given the scale of his plans? Why would you ever voluntarily limit yourself to just 50% of the available populace? Many silly “you’ve not actually stopped to think this through, have you?” Out of universe arguments (men are stronger than women on average) fall away because of the Astartes Creation Process. Gene therapy, artificial organs, pumped full of growth hormones etc. Plus, once your encased in Astartes Power Armour, any slight difference in strength largely falls away entirely, because it further enhanced your strength.

Time. Time is what The Emperor lacked. He had to get the Crusade going when he did - when the birth of Slaanesh blew away warp storms, furthering his reach. Always remember Astartes were a bodge job, in the wake of the Primarch’s going missing. Had that not happened, who knows? We know and can background demonstrate the discovery of each Primarch allowed Geneseed flaws to be if not cured, at least mitigated. Skipping forward 40,000 years, the event of the Primaris strain strongly suggests they’re closer to the original plan.

Now had things gone differently, it’s entirely feasible female Primarchs were a project in mind. Because as I said above, when you’ve a Galaxy to forcibly conquer, why the hell would you voluntarily limit your best troops to roughly half the available stock?

And so the setting is inclusive. Sure I’m not aware of any explicitly trans characters. But when you see post-humans, clones, genhanced etc being quite common place (House Goliath for instance) I don’t think someone transitioning gender is….at all remarkable. Indeed it could simply be so incredibly passé it’s not worth really noting?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?

   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?


In what way is it incorrect?


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?

Why would that be a joke? The human empire cares about only one race, the human one. Everything downwards from that is of non consequances. Being recruited to any of the imperial organisations, drafted by imperial navy press gang etc. No one cares about skin colour, gender, sexuality. It is 100% equal.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

a_typical_hero wrote:
Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.


Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.

Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch agree.

   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Karol wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?

Why would that be a joke? The human empire cares about only one race, the human one. Everything downwards from that is of non consequances. Being recruited to any of the imperial organisations, drafted by imperial navy press gang etc. No one cares about skin colour, gender, sexuality. It is 100% equal.


To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The_Real_Chris 805796 11391282 wrote:

Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.


In a authoritarian society you don't need to do that. Specialy one that is 10k years old. Everyone knows what their job is, and if they don't want to do it then they either enter the fringes of the society, like the underhives or being a criminal. And this is considered the easy way. Or you get outright accused of rebelion against the state, and get purged. The states, unless it is part of some internal games between the local noblity or various adeptus, doesn't need to create any special groups for society to work better. Specialy as they already have a good enough whip to make people do their job in the form of various xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 12:58:19


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





Most worlds don't need much of an "out group" considering that Xenos, Heretics, Mutants, Psykers, and Abhumans fill the roles to varying degrees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.


He's an author, and I don't think the colors were meant to be political parties, but just vague groups.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 13:00:58


Setek: "My people shackled the stars, and broke mortality when the species you sprang from had barely left the slime pools it spawned in. Our wars burned reality, and the dominion of our kings is without limit. The ground you tread on is not yours; it is ours. "

Ahriman: "The Necrontyr; the sleeping ones"

Setek: "That name is not ours. Why give a name to totality?" 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





The_Real_Chris wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.


Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.


If only there was some kind of common threat to humanity that the Imperium could ise as propoganda to unify the population behind amd frighten them into compliamce. Like a hostile alien race, or some kind of heretical religion. Seems like an oversight on the writers to not think of that.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.


This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly. We’ve seen no evidence of gendered roles, or non-cis being treated persecuted at all.


I'm a little hesitant to label the Imperium as tolerant just because they don't care about sex, orientation, or skin color. They'll still burn you alive if you have visible deformities (mutant!), have contact with outsiders (xenophile!), or have cultural practices that could be construed an unsanctioned religion (heretic!).

Especially if you're looking at the setting at a thematic rather than strictly literal level, where writing aliens as stand-ins for foreign human cultures, or fictional social issues as stand-ins for real-world ones, is a time-honored tradition in sci-fi. Take away the satire and 40K is pretty much fascist propaganda- where every immigrant group and alternate religion is secretly seeking to corrupt and subvert the populace to foreign powers that all plot the downfall of the noble empire, sexual deviancy is an avenue for possession by literal demons from hell, and the only way to keep the race species pure is intolerance and wars of aggression. I know of a book that explicitly satirizes this sci-fi trope and it's funny how closely its meta-narrative matches 40K.

So I mean, yeah I guess as long as you're born human, aren't born with any deformities that could be construed as mutation, do exactly what you're told, don't speak out, and don't cause trouble for the governor in a way that could impact the tithe, then the Imperium is pretty tolerant. I don't think that's really saying all that much, and to me it seems like missing the forest for the trees.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 14:29:41


   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Most worlds don't need much of an "out group" considering that Xenos, Heretics, Mutants, Psykers, and Abhumans fill the roles to varying degrees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.


He's an author, and I don't think the colors were meant to be political parties, but just vague groups.


The full quote is:
“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”
   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





Thank you. I never read Discworld, but have heard that it's fantastic.

Setek: "My people shackled the stars, and broke mortality when the species you sprang from had barely left the slime pools it spawned in. Our wars burned reality, and the dominion of our kings is without limit. The ground you tread on is not yours; it is ours. "

Ahriman: "The Necrontyr; the sleeping ones"

Setek: "That name is not ours. Why give a name to totality?" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I would recommend picking up Guards! Guards! for a good cross section of the flavour, style and setting.

Plus it has one of the best dedications ever.

“They may be called the Palace Guard, the City Guard, or the Patrol. Whatever the name, their purpose in any work of heroic fantasy is identical: it is, round about Chapter Three (or ten minutes into the film) to rush into the room, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. No one ever asks them if they want to.
This book is dedicated to those fine men.”
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I believe near 1/2 of Quins and DE models are males and females.

Sisters will burn everyone including women and children equally.

Necromunda is pretty inclusive too.

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 vipoid wrote:
It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!


This is the most pathetically forced soapboxing I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go away.




 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Show an example of any rule, social or game one which is not open to everyone aside for people who are a danger to others or outright criminals ?

There is no you have to be X, Y and Z to play w40k coming from the company. Now players can of course do the whole , you won't be missed, because someone doesn't like to paint or super optimise their lists, but they are not the ones that decide how the game is.


The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...


This seems irrelevant to my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Nah, Lucas's commentary on the issue is that the more cybernetic parts Vader had the less powerful he got in the Force. As in, his spiritual connection to the universe or whatever was diminished because he is physically handicapped.


a_typical_hero wrote:
As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?


So someone else mentioned this a bit, but the point is that the stories Lucas was trying to tell were archetypal stories about good and evil; they were "fairy tales" in that he wanted to interact with the mythological underpinnings of fiction. So it's definitely relevant to modern society, and in particular he was thinking about the Vietnam era when he wrote Star Wars, Vader's breathing noises are evocative of an iron lung, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 17:46:03


 
   
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In My Lab

Hecaton wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...


This seems irrelevant to my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Nah, Lucas's commentary on the issue is that the more cybernetic parts Vader had the less powerful he got in the Force. As in, his spiritual connection to the universe or whatever was diminished because he is physically handicapped.


a_typical_hero wrote:
As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?


So someone else mentioned this a bit, but the point is that the stories Lucas was trying to tell were archetypal stories about good and evil; they were "fairy tales" in that he wanted to interact with the mythological underpinnings of fiction. So it's definitely relevant to modern society, and in particular he was thinking about the Vietnam era when he wrote Star Wars, Vader's breathing noises are evocative of an iron lung, etc.
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Philadelphia PA

It's interesting bringing up explicit cybernetics. While I definitely think it's an area of human variance that the Imperium allows in the setting IMO it's mostly because of how striated society is in the setting. Cybernetics are expensive/socially gated goods so those with them would want to show them off.

Forges of Mars actually had a mechanicus character that other characters saw as noteworthy because her augments were subtle. Having human shaped cybernetic arms and not gigantic bicep pistons was considered weird.I suppose it's like finding out your coworker was secretly a millionaire and only spent the money on really good quality black slacks for work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 18:09:12


 
   
 
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