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Two characters who are constantly looking for a worthy challenge and love to fight against enemy champions.

A battle in the Webway, a chance meeting during a demonic breakthrough into Commorragh.

Depends entirely upon who is writing it to be honest.

Did you have a question, OP?

Not to yuck anyone's yum, but should we have a rule against these, "Who would win?" threads? There have been a lot of them lately, and they can generally be summed up as, "Depends on who's writing the book and who the protagonist is."

I think they're implying who would win based on the title? Though their thread history does show them to be pretty obsessed with 1v1 for characters.

From a narrative standpoint, Skulltaker being immortal actually puts him in a disadvantage because the writer can have him die and not have any issues with it impacting the larger canon or faction he is from. To some extent, I believe Hesperax has some level of plot armour in coming back to life too, between the Haemonculi no doubt having a part of her essence to regenerate from as well as now being part of the Ynnari whose whole schtick is coming back/getting energy from death.

Overall, in terms of feats, I would put Lelith higher but I would say that Skulltaker would still give her one hell of a fight.

 Grimskul wrote:
I think they're implying who would win based on the title? Though their thread history does show them to be pretty obsessed with 1v1 for characters.

From a narrative standpoint, Skulltaker being immortal actually puts him in a disadvantage because the writer can have him die and not have any issues with it impacting the larger canon or faction he is from. To some extent, I believe Hesperax has some level of plot armour in coming back to life too, between the Haemonculi no doubt having a part of her essence to regenerate from as well as now being part of the Ynnari whose whole schtick is coming back/getting energy from death.

Overall, in terms of feats, I would put Lelith higher but I would say that Skulltaker would still give her one hell of a fight.

The ''problem'' of Lelith is that her entire character is basically based on the fact she simply doesn't lose any duels. If you were to make her lose one, she would basically lose her most defining trait; of being the undefeated and potentially undeafetable Succubus. If you were to have her lose and yet retain the character in any meaningful way, you would need to find a rather contrived way to make her lose due to some sort of obvious plot device or by making it a non-duel.

In any story, the character that can be defeated and retain it's standing and ''specialness'' is always going to lose. You can defeat Lucius, because him losing is actually part of his character and is one of his defining trait. You can defeat Kharn, hell, you can even defeat Guilliman and none of those character would be ''destroyed'' or significantly changed unless you defeated them too often (or even systematically in all stories they appear) or in a ridiculous manner.

So was the Undertaker during Wrestlemania until Brock Lesnar beat him. Same with Apollo Creed, before Rocky beat him. Or Freeza from Dragon Ball, before Goku beat him.

Seemingly undefeatable characters being defeated happens all the time, and it is in fact narratively stifling to suggest that Lelith fundamentally can't lose because she hasn't yet. What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

I have no particular opinion on this particular fight (though on the tabletop she sadly gets crushed, her rules are ass), but gak like "muh whoever the writer wants" or "Lelith because it's her heckin' identity" are cop-outs. Look at their accomplishments and try to come to a conclusion based on that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So was the Undertaker during Wrestlemania until Brock Lesnar beat him. Same with Apollo Creed, before Rocky beat him. Or Freeza from Dragon Ball, before Goku beat him.

Seemingly undefeatable characters being defeated happens all the time, and it is in fact narratively stifling to suggest that Lelith fundamentally can't lose because she hasn't yet. What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

I have no particular opinion on this particular fight (though on the tabletop she sadly gets crushed, her rules are ass), but gak like "muh whoever the writer wants" or "Lelith because it's her heckin' identity" are cop-outs. Look at their accomplishments and try to come to a conclusion based on that.

I think any Phoenix Lord is superior to Lelith.

Void__Dragon wrote:So was the Undertaker during Wrestlemania until Brock Lesnar beat him. Same with Apollo Creed, before Rocky beat him. Or Freeza from Dragon Ball, before Goku beat him.

And then Freeza wasn't threatening afterwards unless they'd given him a special powerup as part of his return. Non-powered-up versions of him get used at various points to show that characters can comfortably mid-tier threats.

What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

This is probably the reason we don't have any stories about her fighting Drazhar despite them being neighbors for millenia.

I have no particular opinion on this particular fight (though on the tabletop she sadly gets crushed, her rules are ass), but gak like "muh whoever the writer wants" or "Lelith because it's her heckin' identity" are cop-outs. Look at their accomplishments and try to come to a conclusion based on that.

Not a cop out. Just a different lens to view things from. The capabilities of characters or certain types of warriors varies wildly from one book to another, so going off of accomplishments is kind of a questionable metric. See: any time someone points out that an especially over-the-top feat from a random marine might not be a good measure of what the average marine can do on a normal day. If you're asking us to predict who would win a fight between two characters in a story, then the tropes/demands of the narrative are a decent way to figure that out.

Who wins in a fight between Batman and (Insert Villain Here)? Nine times out of 10, it's going to be Batman because plot and because killing off Batman probably wouldn't be good for business. What's that? You feel like the alien god with strength comparable to Superman's and death ray eyes should probably win against a gymnast with a utility belt? Makes sense, but you'd usually be guessing wrong.

darkoms wrote:
I think any Phoenix Lord is superior to Lelith.

I mean, I love my Phoenix Lords, but I'm not sure I agree. Granted, phoenix lords have the advantage of having, y'know, guns, but in terms of melee abilities, it gets a bit iffy. In editions where PLs were WS7, Lelith was usually 9 or 10. Phoenix Lords ignore armor because power weapons. Lelith ignores armor because skill. There isn't any particular reason for Lelith to be as good as she is; she just is. And the upper limit of that skill is basically just whatever the writers want it to be.

As others have said if your talking about it being written in a book it just depends on who's perspective it is written from, I would generally think Lelith would prevail as she is more likely to be the focus of a book and also skulltaker can be die but be back again for future stories.

What we do have is tabletop rules for them and we can see who would win in a fight using those.

Lelith is faster but Skulltaker has great deepstrike options, Lelith also has a strikes first power so let assume she gets the first blows in.
She gets lots of attacks but they aren't high str and are only 1 damage, even with her full rerolls she just doesn't do enough damage to take skulltaker out in a single round without some very lucky/unlucky roling.
In return skulltaker only needs two wounds to connect to kill Lelith as he ignores her invulnerable save. He gets full rerolls and will likely kill her in a single round 9 out of 10 times.

Skulltaker is the winner!

This is just quick head maths not math hammer so could be wrong)

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Seemingly undefeatable characters being defeated happens all the time, and it is in fact narratively stifling to suggest that Lelith fundamentally can't lose because she hasn't yet. What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

You mean the dude who was literally beaten in fight and killed?

Wyldhunt 806959 wrote:
I mean, I love my Phoenix Lords, but I'm not sure I agree. Granted, phoenix lords have the advantage of having, y'know, guns, but in terms of melee abilities, it gets a bit iffy. In editions where PLs were WS7, Lelith was usually 9 or 10. Phoenix Lords ignore armor because power weapons. Lelith ignores armor because skill. There isn't any particular reason for Lelith to be as good as she is; she just is. And the upper limit of that skill is basically just whatever the writers want it to be.

I'm always skeptical about tabletop rules, Phoenix Lords (except Asurmen and Drazhar ) didn't even have invuls until 9th edition. The Phoenix Lords easily defeat the Greater Demons and they are the demigods of battle. Not only are they skilled fighters, but they also have powerful psychic powers. Lelith may be faster than Jane Zar, but she has no defense against the banshee's scream. She might be stronger in close combat than Maugan Ra, but what's the point if he can use a word of power and become immobile as a stone or do some other crap.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
undefeatable characters being defeated happens all the time, and it is in fact narratively stifling to suggest that Lelith fundamentally can't lose because she hasn't yet. What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

Ironically Drazhar has been defeated or at least fought to a draw other characters, all Phoenix Lords who themselves have all been defeated at least once. You will note as others have mentioned it that nobody has written a story in which both lelith and Drazhar fight each other to the death and if it were to happen, it would be a momentous event that could see one character become completely irrelevent afterward. Most characters defined by being undeafetable either die or become largely irrelevent after they are defeated like so many villains in shonen manga's or superhero comic books. You can absolutely write a story about Lelith losing or getting killed, but you have to deal with the consequences of such action and then deal with her fan base. If two characters fight and one would not be significantly changed by a defeat, it would be better to have them lose as it makes for a easier story to right in an enormous setting even if it makes for a predictable story. You can try to use feats and skills, but in the context of stories with no clear metric system built in it's hard to assess and also unrealistic. Life is filled with surprises and sometime a ''worst'' fighter wins against the better one thanks to a bit of luck just at the right moment. For all we know, Lelith will meet her hand by being stabbed by some conscript in the back because she simply didn't see him or her. It would be a strange end for such a hero, but it's definitely possible and plausible within the setting.

darkoms wrote:

Wyldhunt 806959 wrote:
I mean, I love my Phoenix Lords, but I'm not sure I agree. Granted, phoenix lords have the advantage of having, y'know, guns, but in terms of melee abilities, it gets a bit iffy. In editions where PLs were WS7, Lelith was usually 9 or 10. Phoenix Lords ignore armor because power weapons. Lelith ignores armor because skill. There isn't any particular reason for Lelith to be as good as she is; she just is. And the upper limit of that skill is basically just whatever the writers want it to be.

I'm always skeptical about tabletop rules, Phoenix Lords (except Asurmen and Drazhar ) didn't even have invuls until 9th edition.

That's fair. Tabletop rules definitely aren't 1:1 with the fluff (thank goodness), but I do feel like they still tell a story. In Lelith's case, she had rules indicating that she's going to have the edge in terms of swordplay (higher WS) and that she's so good at melee she can bypass with skill armor that a power sword would struggle to cut through. And given that the PLs generally have worse AP (or needed power weapons in past editions to do the same thing), I think it's fair to say that this tells us Lelith has the edge in terms of stabbing skill.

The Phoenix Lords easily defeat the Greater Demons and they are the demigods of battle. Not only are they skilled fighters, but they also have powerful psychic powers. Lelith may be faster than Jane Zar, but she has no defense against the banshee's scream. She might be stronger in close combat than Maugan Ra, but what's the point if he can use a word of power and become immobile as a stone or do some other crap.

Do you have a source for easily defeating Greater Demons and whatever the Maugan Ra stone thing is? When I think of PLs facing greater daemons, I think of the Jain Zar novel where she does just that, and she doesn't come across as confident that she'll win. And I'm not familiar with the stone thing at all. I'm always eager for more PL lore if there's something I've missed.

Skulltaker was an unmatched contender in Khorne's gladiatorial pits even before he got his position. As far as I know, the only times he's been defeated are by the Grey Knights (and I'm not sure if that was in dueling or just from being shot), and when he was struck down by psychic attacks during the Great Game.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

darkoms wrote:

Wyldhunt 806959 wrote:
I mean, I love my Phoenix Lords, but I'm not sure I agree. Granted, phoenix lords have the advantage of having, y'know, guns, but in terms of melee abilities, it gets a bit iffy. In editions where PLs were WS7, Lelith was usually 9 or 10. Phoenix Lords ignore armor because power weapons. Lelith ignores armor because skill. There isn't any particular reason for Lelith to be as good as she is; she just is. And the upper limit of that skill is basically just whatever the writers want it to be.

I'm always skeptical about tabletop rules, Phoenix Lords (except Asurmen and Drazhar ) didn't even have invuls until 9th edition.

That's fair. Tabletop rules definitely aren't 1:1 with the fluff (thank goodness), but I do feel like they still tell a story. In Lelith's case, she had rules indicating that she's going to have the edge in terms of swordplay (higher WS) and that she's so good at melee she can bypass with skill armor that a power sword would struggle to cut through. And given that the PLs generally have worse AP (or needed power weapons in past editions to do the same thing), I think it's fair to say that this tells us Lelith has the edge in terms of stabbing skill.

The Phoenix Lords easily defeat the Greater Demons and they are the demigods of battle. Not only are they skilled fighters, but they also have powerful psychic powers. Lelith may be faster than Jane Zar, but she has no defense against the banshee's scream. She might be stronger in close combat than Maugan Ra, but what's the point if he can use a word of power and become immobile as a stone or do some other crap.

Do you have a source for easily defeating Greater Demons and whatever the Maugan Ra stone thing is? When I think of PLs facing greater daemons, I think of the Jain Zar novel where she does just that, and she doesn't come across as confident that she'll win. And I'm not familiar with the stone thing at all. I'm always eager for more PL lore if there's something I've missed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/r7homx/excerpts_various_sources_phoenix_lords_more/

They also kill the Lords of Change as easily as unarmed guardsmen in the Fracture of Biel-Tan . In the Jain Zar book, she fights a Keeper of Secrets that has been enhanced by a nearby Warp Portal, if I remember correctly, and she still defeats it when she uses her scream. They, along with Asurmen, also defeat N'kari, one of the strongest Keepers of Secrets, before they even became Phoenix Lords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
undefeatable characters being defeated happens all the time, and it is in fact narratively stifling to suggest that Lelith fundamentally can't lose because she hasn't yet. What happens if she fights Drazhar, who has the same distinction?

Ironically Drazhar has been defeated or at least fought to a draw other characters, all Phoenix Lords who themselves have all been defeated at least once. You will note as others have mentioned it that nobody has written a story in which both lelith and Drazhar fight each other to the death and if it were to happen, it would be a momentous event that could see one character become completely irrelevent afterward. Most characters defined by being undeafetable either die or become largely irrelevent after they are defeated like so many villains in shonen manga's or superhero comic books. You can absolutely write a story about Lelith losing or getting killed, but you have to deal with the consequences of such action and then deal with her fan base. If two characters fight and one would not be significantly changed by a defeat, it would be better to have them lose as it makes for a easier story to right in an enormous setting even if it makes for a predictable story. You can try to use feats and skills, but in the context of stories with no clear metric system built in it's hard to assess and also unrealistic. Life is filled with surprises and sometime a ''worst'' fighter wins against the better one thanks to a bit of luck just at the right moment. For all we know, Lelith will meet her hand by being stabbed by some conscript in the back because she simply didn't see him or her. It would be a strange end for such a hero, but it's definitely possible and plausible within the setting.

What I hate the most is in 40k, when people answer ''depends who the author'' or ''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian'' or ''the immortal character will lose because it can be returned to history''. It's like plot armor is a fething feature. Can 40k fans stop responding like Doylists for at least 5 seconds and focus on Watsonian answer choices and use arguments based on character exploits in lore?

darkoms wrote:

What I hate the most is in 40k, when people answer ''depends who the author'' or ''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian'' or ''the immortal character will lose because it can be returned to history''. It's like plot armor is a fething feature. Can 40k fans stop responding like Doylists for at least 5 seconds and focus on Watsonian answer choices and use arguments based on character exploits in lore?

The problem is, the lore is mutable, for the reasons you hate so much. Just look at how SM are portrayed depending on who the author is and whether they're the focus of the novel or not. On top of that, many of these characters actually have very little lore written about them, especially Xenos ones. In most cases they'll get a paragraph or two, which is then regurgitated in every subsequent Codex. Occasionally, you might get lucky and they may appear in a novel or short story but most of the time we get very little info at all.

Take Lelith as an example. According to everything I could find on her, she's appeared briefly in the events around the birth of the Ynarri and then had short descriptions in the various DE Codices, most of which are simply reprinted from her first appearance. Skulltaker is even worse. He has info in 3 whole Codices - all Daemon Codices - and, again, it's the same info largely repeated each time it appears.

40k lore is not some heavily curated setting, with a Word of God approach to everything in it, like Star Wars or Trek. It's barely internally consistent. The info in a Codex often reads like propaganda for the faction. So in the DE Codex we see Lelith is the supreme duellist in all of 40k. But Daemons might imply, or outright state, it's Skulltaker, while the Black Templars would tell you it's the Emperors Champion and the Craftworlders would say it's Jain Zar. So the answer to most questions like that posed here, literally can only ever be "it depends".

Slipspace wrote:

darkoms wrote:

What I hate the most is in 40k, when people answer ''depends who the author'' or ''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian'' or ''the immortal character will lose because it can be returned to history''. It's like plot armor is a fething feature. Can 40k fans stop responding like Doylists for at least 5 seconds and focus on Watsonian answer choices and use arguments based on character exploits in lore?

The problem is, the lore is mutable, for the reasons you hate so much. Just look at how SM are portrayed depending on who the author is and whether they're the focus of the novel or not. On top of that, many of these characters actually have very little lore written about them, especially Xenos ones. In most cases they'll get a paragraph or two, which is then regurgitated in every subsequent Codex. Occasionally, you might get lucky and they may appear in a novel or short story but most of the time we get very little info at all.

Take Lelith as an example. According to everything I could find on her, she's appeared briefly in the events around the birth of the Ynarri and then had short descriptions in the various DE Codices, most of which are simply reprinted from her first appearance. Skulltaker is even worse. He has info in 3 whole Codices - all Daemon Codices - and, again, it's the same info largely repeated each time it appears.

40k lore is not some heavily curated setting, with a Word of God approach to everything in it, like Star Wars or Trek. It's barely internally consistent. The info in a Codex often reads like propaganda for the faction. So in the DE Codex we see Lelith is the supreme duellist in all of 40k. But Daemons might imply, or outright state, it's Skulltaker, while the Black Templars would tell you it's the Emperors Champion and the Craftworlders would say it's Jain Zar. So the answer to most questions like that posed here, literally can only ever be "it depends".

Lelith defeated Helbrecht, and the champion of Feast of Blades, who simultaneously fought the Archon and 12 incubi, could only inflict one wound on her, while Crowe, the best duelist of the Gray Knights, could not defeat the Skulltaker even after weakening him with the tears of the Emperor.


We can base assumptions on such exploits.

darkoms wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

darkoms wrote:

What I hate the most is in 40k, when people answer ''depends who the author'' or ''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian'' or ''the immortal character will lose because it can be returned to history''. It's like plot armor is a fething feature. Can 40k fans stop responding like Doylists for at least 5 seconds and focus on Watsonian answer choices and use arguments based on character exploits in lore?

The problem is, the lore is mutable, for the reasons you hate so much. Just look at how SM are portrayed depending on who the author is and whether they're the focus of the novel or not. On top of that, many of these characters actually have very little lore written about them, especially Xenos ones. In most cases they'll get a paragraph or two, which is then regurgitated in every subsequent Codex. Occasionally, you might get lucky and they may appear in a novel or short story but most of the time we get very little info at all.

Take Lelith as an example. According to everything I could find on her, she's appeared briefly in the events around the birth of the Ynarri and then had short descriptions in the various DE Codices, most of which are simply reprinted from her first appearance. Skulltaker is even worse. He has info in 3 whole Codices - all Daemon Codices - and, again, it's the same info largely repeated each time it appears.

40k lore is not some heavily curated setting, with a Word of God approach to everything in it, like Star Wars or Trek. It's barely internally consistent. The info in a Codex often reads like propaganda for the faction. So in the DE Codex we see Lelith is the supreme duellist in all of 40k. But Daemons might imply, or outright state, it's Skulltaker, while the Black Templars would tell you it's the Emperors Champion and the Craftworlders would say it's Jain Zar. So the answer to most questions like that posed here, literally can only ever be "it depends".

Lelith defeated Helbrecht, and the champion of Feast of Blades, who simultaneously fought the Archon and 12 incubi, could only inflict one wound on her, while Crowe, the best duelist of the Gray Knights, could not defeat the Skulltaker even after weakening him with the tears of the Emperor.


We can base assumptions on such exploits.

We could indeed do that, but it's pretty darn weak when you think about it. For example, it's perfectly reasonable to say Lelith can defeat Skulltaker, but would most likely lose to Crowe due to differences in fighting styles granting her advantages in a fight, but not the others for example. It's even worst with daemons whose powers are magical in nature and very inconsistent. Sometime they struggle to maintain their form and thus are weakened while in others they are closer to their source of power and almost invincible. Even Lelith is subject to such effect. Is she high on freshly killed souls she drank and thus is a psychically enhance combat monster or is she starving snd thus profoundly weakened. Also note the difficulty to assess the situation with example you provided. How good is Crowe compared to the double champion of the Feat of Blades? How effective are the tears of the Emperor supposed to be? Was Skulltaker simply unaffected or partially affected?

Exalts for epronovost and Slipspace. While it might not be a satisfying answer, in-universe exploits just aren't that great a metric for speculating about who would win a fight.

If the goal is to actually predict the outcome of a fight, you'll probably have more accurate predictions if you base them on narrative considerations, how willing GW might be to stop making money on one of them, etc.

If GW were ballsy enough to mention that Kruellagh the Vile exists, they could absolutely have her get bodied or even perma-killed because they haven't sold her model or included her in a book in ages.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Exalts for epronovost and Slipspace. While it might not be a satisfying answer, in-universe exploits just aren't that great a metric for speculating about who would win a fight.

If the goal is to actually predict the outcome of a fight, you'll probably have more accurate predictions if you base them on narrative considerations, how willing GW might be to stop making money on one of them, etc.

If GW were ballsy enough to mention that Kruellagh the Vile exists, they could absolutely have her get bodied or even perma-killed because they haven't sold her model or included her in a book in ages.

I do get why people think that editorial discussions aren't as fun as fantasy discussions, I do believe we can frame the question fo Lelith Hesperax vs Skulltaker (or any other character for that matter) in a different matter.

For example, if I were to write a Black Library book in which those two characters were to duel one another, who would win and how would they do so within the context of the hyopthetical story I would write. While the reasons for my choice of victor might be driven mostly by editorial choices, I still have to give a semi-credible explanation within the context of the universe to do it. I would, in that context, give victory to Lelith over Skulltaker. I would have made her win by using her superior speed and agility to succesfully bait a predictable attack from the enraged daemon and land a succesful counter blow that would have lightly grazed her. Skulltaker would have permanently lost an eye in the fight and wishes to have the privilege to fight against Lelith for Khorne's pleasure for eternity once she dies (hoping he would be the one to claim her mortal head). Skulltaker's views of Lelith is thus that of some sort of twisted stalker/lover in a very Khorne way; "M'lady I wish to fight you for all eternity, love Skulltaker". As for Lelith, she pretends to be filled with only disgust at the idea and would even pretend not to recognize Skulltaker from other daemons of Khorne she would have fought, but this is of course false and deep down within her, there is a little voice that makes Skulltaker's twisted project for her appear interesting.

If you make the question about how you would write story of X vs Y, you get more interesting answer than trying to find an absolute pseudo objective answer to who is stronger X or Y.

darkoms wrote:
''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian''

Seeing Ciaphas Cain is rumored to have Emperor's favour (and is indeed venerated as Living Saint in multiple places), and managed to beat (in single melee combat, no less) between others, a World Eater berserker, an Ork warboss, a Daemon Princess (twice!), a Genestealer cult Patriarch, a Hive Tyrant (ok, that one was ended by a tank shell but still, managed to save life of his aide from its charge), an Ambull, a Chaos Lord powerful enough to command a whole front of Black Crusade, and a few more things besides...

...I find your lack of faith in his ability to take a Custode disturbing

 Irbis wrote:

darkoms wrote:
''the named character wins, even if it Caiphas Cain vs unnamed Custodian''

Seeing Ciaphas Cain is rumored to have Emperor's favour (and is indeed venerated as Living Saint in multiple places), and managed to beat (in single melee combat, no less) between others, a World Eater berserker, an Ork warboss, a Daemon Princess (twice!), a Genestealer cult Patriarch, a Hive Tyrant (ok, that one was ended by a tank shell but still, managed to save life of his aide from its charge), an Ambull, a Chaos Lord powerful enough to command a whole front of Black Crusade, and a few more things besides...

...I find your lack of faith in his ability to take a Custode disturbing

Not sure about everything else, but the first time he defeated the Daemon Prince with the help of Jurgen (blank, you know), and the second time she was defeated by the Avatar of Khaine