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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 12:18:41
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Lord of the Fleet
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This has been a bit of an ongoing project but wasn't until I saw the classic Votaan Codex here that I was able to put pen to paper, and used that classic one as the template.
It irked me a bit that GW could have done more with the Kroot in the new Tau book, and it's a shame that they're still a bit lacklustre. Using what I know and what I can find online about the Kroot, I've tried to flesh them out into a full Codex.
Below is the Google Docs link, the book is presented in Excel. It's still being drafted and at the moment there are still some chunks missing. Some units still need datasheets although they have placeholders, and there are no points values at this time.
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Codex: Kroot
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Initial Thoughts
The idea of this book is to go a bit deeper into the evolutionary aspect of the Kroot. Looking at the evolutionary tree you'll see that each vertical stage has a theme from simply +1 attack, to movement, to toughness, to damage output. The Kroot start the game off squishy but evolve as the game goes on.
I've tried to keep the weapons more inline with the Kroot, as their tech seems more primitive compared to the Tau. That being said there is the odd bit of fancier tech here and there but I don't want to overdo it.
I still need to draft up Psychic Powers and finish off a lot of the wargear.
Thoughts would be appreciated on this.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/14 10:13:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 16:15:52
Subject: Re:Codex - Kroot
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Getting stronger as the game goes on just seems like how Dark Eldar function, so maybe do something else for a passive? I'll read the codex later though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 17:03:37
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Row R unit types needs fixing.
Evolving mid-game doesn't seem fluffy, what's your opinion? I think it'd be more fluffy for it to be a pre-game/Crusade rule.
Replace Swooping Dive with Plunge From the Sky: During deployment, you can set up this unit high in the sky instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
It looks good in Sheets and I'm not guessing you'll be testing it dozens of times so it's not really a big deal, but I am not a fan of your layout. You are missing out on the benefits of datasheets including everything and army special rules probably belongs in the reference section and I initially missed the evolution tree. If you go into file and print you can see how it'd look if you printed it out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 17:30:58
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Lord of the Fleet
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Thanks for the feedback
Re: Evolutions - the Kroot are know for battlefield evolution through consuming their allies and enemies, so while my initial idea was to do it on a squad-by-squad basis, that would get confusing quickly with remembering which units had evolved what. I'd rather keep it as an in-game thing rather than pre-game, but my other idea for that was pretty much a ripoff of the Tyranid stuff.
Re: Formatting. Like I said it's still a first draft. The template was for a 7th Ed fandex so I still need to go back and add things like Keywords, but for the moment I'm just getting the foundations down.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 19:27:12
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
Pacific Northwest
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I like it and might use it.
I've got a big Tau army but not a single Kroot yet. Mostly because they are disgusting, barbaric savages, but also because their rules seem so bland... I might get some someday but probably a less ugly third party proxy.
I have wanted to houserule their main rifle. I thought rapidfire1, S3, Damage2 and no AP would make them feel like big primitive hunting rifles that are a threat to lightly armored infantry but not to anything like an Astartes.
Off topic but I feel like realistically the Tau would mass produce front line close-combat drones instead of relying on the lives of their allies or their own infantry.
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Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 00:12:46
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Valkyrie wrote:Thanks for the feedback
Re: Evolutions - the Kroot are know for battlefield evolution through consuming their allies and enemies, so while my initial idea was to do it on a squad-by-squad basis, that would get confusing quickly with remembering which units had evolved what. I'd rather keep it as an in-game thing rather than pre-game, but my other idea for that was pretty much a ripoff of the Tyranid stuff.
Re: Formatting. Like I said it's still a first draft. The template was for a 7th Ed fandex so I still need to go back and add things like Keywords, but for the moment I'm just getting the foundations down.
Squad basis might actually make more sense though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 05:54:44
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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S3 AP- D2 is better than S4 AP-1 D1 against Astartes, Armour of Contempt was a mistake.
Low-tech weapons should be low-range I think. R12" Assault 2 S4 AP-. Tau also don't need another long-ranged sniper unit. Kroot having a weak ranged attack helps balance out the faction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 08:58:40
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Lord of the Fleet
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vict0988 wrote:S3 AP- D2 is better than S4 AP-1 D1 against Astartes, Armour of Contempt was a mistake.
Low-tech weapons should be low-range I think. R12" Assault 2 S4 AP-. Tau also don't need another long-ranged sniper unit. Kroot having a weak ranged attack helps balance out the faction.
The generic weapons such as Kroot Rifles are copied directly from the Tau Codex. I would disagree that Low-tech = short range; Autoguns are commonly touted as simple junk weapons yet they match Lasguns in range and strength.
You're right that Tau wouldn't need another sniper unit but the main aim of this book is to run Kroot by themselves. The majority of Kroot units are still only BS4+ which I think would offset any initial issues with the ranged armoury.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 09:55:07
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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My comment was a response to kingpbjames, I realise the value in changing as little as possible for all sorts of reasons. But I think if you are going to change them and you don't want them to be anti-Marine S3 D2 would be the wrong direction.
A lot of Tau players liked the sniper Kroot, I don't remember the lore well enough to say what is appropriate, my comment was meant more as a fluff-agnostic perspective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 10:17:43
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Lord of the Fleet
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vict0988 wrote:My comment was a response to kingpbjames, I realise the value in changing as little as possible for all sorts of reasons. But I think if you are going to change them and you don't want them to be anti-Marine S3 D2 would be the wrong direction. A lot of Tau players liked the sniper Kroot, I don't remember the lore well enough to say what is appropriate, my comment was meant more as a fluff-agnostic perspective. Oh fair enough then. Looking a bit closer at the fluff it states that the Kroot Rifles are actually Pulse weapons. Apparently the Tau made some small modifications and that became the standard for their basic guns. Only just found that out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/13 10:17:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 17:18:22
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
Pacific Northwest
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Valkyrie wrote:Looking a bit closer at the fluff it states that the Kroot Rifles are actually Pulse weapons. Apparently the Tau made some small modifications and that became the standard for their basic guns.
Are you sure? I've never heard of this. I think in War of Secrets the Dark Angels are ambushed by Kroot and they note the Kroot rifles as being primitive solid-slug weapons.
My bad on not calculating out the statistics on the rifle's strength vs damage.
I do agree with vict0988 that it makes sense for low-tech weapons to be low-range, but 12" is pretty short for a hunting rifle. Then again I understand leaving it untouched.
More importantly is the Kroot cannibalize power. I think 9th ed has it as a stratagem to permanently upgrade one unit with FNP upon slaying a model in the fight phase. On one hand, maybe this is realistic. The Kroot that feast on the slain gain insight to their enemy's tactics, giving them a better chance to dodge fatal wounds in future fights.
On the other hand, I love skill trees, specializing, and adapting. Making it army-wide is a lot simpler than upgrading units with tokens.
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Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/13 23:10:06
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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kingpbjames wrote: Valkyrie wrote:Looking a bit closer at the fluff it states that the Kroot Rifles are actually Pulse weapons. Apparently the Tau made some small modifications and that became the standard for their basic guns.
Are you sure? I've never heard of this. I think in War of Secrets the Dark Angels are ambushed by Kroot and they note the Kroot rifles as being primitive solid-slug weapons.
Yeah, it's been there since the original codex. The way it's described though they are using special ammo from the tau, so I assume they can always load it with their old ammo as well if they need to. Probably just S3 then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/14 10:10:08
Subject: Re:Codex - Kroot
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Lord of the Fleet
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Thanks for the feedback. The original link has been updated with the V2 copy.
Changes
Several datasheets added, particularly in Elites and Heavy Support
Additional weapons added and tweaked
Stratagems fleshed out
Minor typos and formatting fixed
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/16 06:22:37
Subject: Re:Codex - Kroot
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Fixture of Dakka
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I like a lot of this. Everything seems pretty balanced; nothing too crazy. I especially like what you've done with some of the weapon mechanics.
That said, here are my nitpicks:
Battlefield Evolution:
This doesn't feel quite right to me in a fluff sense. Kroot are known for eating stuff on the battlefield and evolving as a result, but...
A.) They probably don't change the shape of their legs to run faster, gain the ability to change the color of their skin, and then change the design of their eyes all within the brief span of time a game of 40k seems to represent.
B.) They evolve by incorporating the genetics of the things they eat. So you eat a fast thing to become fast. You eat an ork to become tough. You eat an ur ghul to gain super scent. If you're fighting an army of humans, what genetics are you incorporating to gain a hardened carapace, rapid regeneration, or chameoline skin?
There's a short story where some kroot get ahold of a guardsmen from a planet where the population adapted to have really good night vision, so the kroot briefly explain they want to eat him to improve their night vision. That's the sort of thing I think about when it comes to kroot evolution. Your shaper recognizes a useful trait that they'd like to add to your group, they take steps to make sure everyone has had a chance to nom some of the relevant DNA, and then you have that useful trait the next time you go into battle. Maybe he holds onto some leftovers in case you lose the useful trait in the future but might want to gain it back down the road. Or maybe he only has enough leftovers to "equip" a kill team with some choice genetic abilities before a particular mission.
So with all that in mind, I feel like something vaguely tyranid-esque might be a better way to represent kroot mutations. You might stop to eat on the battlefield, but the most relevant adaptations are traits your shapers have carefully cultivated over time and maybe some more specific traits that your shaper cultivated in preparation for this particular battle or campaign. Having one primary adaptation and one chosen-during-deployment adaptation (tyranid style) seems like it would fit that pretty well.
Alternatively, you could just have eating people give some sort of standard buff (like the malanthrope) or give benefits based on the keywords of the enemy you ate. But the former is a bit boring, and the latter sounds like a lot of work that's hard to balance.
I'd also note that the evolutions in the tree seem like they might mirror each other too much. Enhanced metabolism is basically a more generally useful version of leaping bounds. Toughened Carapace is just a better (less situational) version of Chameleonic Skin. Hunter's Eye and Stalker are both offense buffs (though these two probably mirror one another the least). Frenzy and Brutal Ferocity are both basically, "stab things better." Brutal Ferocity is the melee version of Hunter's Eye. Basically, I worry that any "build" you go with is just going to look like every other evolutionary build with the only real differences being whether you went for Unnatural Regeneration or one of the corner offensive evolutions. This also means that there's probably a clear "best" evolutionary build that everyone will stick to once someone takes the time to crunch the numbers and figure out what the winners and losers of each evolutionary tier are.
Cannibalize: Consider having this action finish at a different time. According to Battlefield Evolution, the new evolutions don't kick in until the end of the player turn, so it's not like having cannibalize happen instantly would mean the unit instantly got access to benefits for the rest of the turn. So all making it an action does is leave it susceptible to those extremely rare abilities that would shut down actions between the fight phase and the end of the turn. If you changed cannibalize to resolve, say, at the end of the following shooting or fight phase, then it would mean the other player has a chance to "shoo" you off of the bodies you're trying to eat. It creates a reason for cannibalize to be an action instead of automatic, and it creates interesting decisions for your opponent.
Vultures: This is very minor, but it might be nice to give them the option to take kroot rifles if only for modeling reasons.
Krootox Artillery: Why WS 5+ for these guys? I'm guessing you have a model in mind and it's related to them being harnessed to the guns or something?
Krootox Riders: I'm not seeing them. Am I just overlooking them?
Qui'Tzin: Just curious about the fluff on this. Is it extra hawks? One really good hawk? Something else entirely?
Blood of the Stalker: Does this potentially let you take multiple evolutions from the same tier? Ex: Unnatural Regeneration and Chameleonic Skin? Actually, I guess the better question is: Can you take multiple evolutions form the same tier in general? Ex: if I've evolved 4 times, can i potentially have Close-Quarters Morphology, Leaps and Bounds, Unnatural Regeneration, and Hardened Carapace all at once? If so, that would solve some of my concerns about exact builds not mattering; you'd have the option to basically focus on either a defensive build (+3 to saves while in cover plus a 5+ Feel No Pain) or an offensive build that uses some of the higher tier evolutions.
Hypermorphology: Seems weird that they'd evolve a hardened carapace or better eyes or whatever and then somehow lose those eyes or carapace a few moments later. Is rapidly losing adaptations a thing kroot do? I'm not an expert on their lore.
Rapid Metamorphosis: Can you explain the intended use of this? I seem to be missing something. The only things that happen between the end of the fight phase and the end of the player turn are things that happen during the morale phase. And completing the action still wouldn't give you the mutations any sooner (per the wording on Battlefield Evolution). The only thing I can think of is that this prevents an enemy unit from using an ability in the morale phase that would cause the action to fail? But that seems extremely niche.
Just to reiterate, I like this a lot on the whole. I'd be happy to play against these rules given the opportunity, and modeling an army that uses them would be a blast.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/29 02:55:12
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Fixture of Dakka
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I like the look of this a lot. I used to run an Angor Prok lead merc list back in the day.
Speaking of the old man, I'd like to see him return. Also, just for the giggles, the limited edition kroot chicken from ForgeWorld needs rules too, perhaps as some kind of not-quite kroothound pet for a shaper? Mostly an ablative wound or something like how grots used to work for Orks.
Also, what do you think about Kroot that have evolved heavily into stealth/ambush? Even if they are only small units of 5? Lictor-like rules perhaps?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/11/03 16:44:25
Subject: Codex - Kroot
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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This is really cool, I like your codex a lot. As someone who plays all Kroot armies as is now, it would be great to have access to a lot of these tools.
Here are some notes on the codex that I hope can help out:
The evolution tree is really cool. It’s hard to say if it’s balanced yet as you haven’t listed what units are CORE. Re-roll 1’s to hit will depend greatly on that and could easily sway the bottom route as being too strong if not balanced right (as Brutal Ferocity is already the best end game option by a reasonable level in most situations). It’s nice that the best 2 at the moment are in the middle though, so it’s not like you commit to abandoning a great late game option in favour of an early one right away.
The spotter feels like it should be an elite option rather than an HQ.
I really like that Shapers can ride Knarloc’s now, an obvious, but excellent addition.
The Hunters profile is messed up, some data is missing.
Might want to consider making the Brutes BS 5+ instead of 4+ to emphasize their partial degeneration into more brutish lumbering creatures.
No Krootox rider? Or did they just get completely changed to Krootox artillery? Why not have both? Do you think it’s stepped on the Brutes toes too much?
Why do trackers have their own profile if they are just a weapon swap of the carnivores? There should be at least something minor that differentiates them other than the one heavy weapon upgrade and the grenade belt options. Think Space Marine Infiltrators vs Incursors; very similar units, but just different enough to be their own thing.
Knarlocs fight a lot with their giant beaks, not just their claws, their melee going down to damage 1 seems weird.
The Great Knarloc loosing its baggage harness is really sad. It’s a really neat play dynamic where you have this large unit that you can’t really protect well that is cheap and fragile but provides a large aura buff to your army. In an all Kroot army you can tweak this by having it be Kroot <CORE> instead of all for balance, but I think it’s a fun play on the army that they are all buffed by being around the big squishy dinosaurs that pass out extra weapons and ammo. I get moving the mortals on the charge to a strat as a change, but nothing for this? Maybe make it an upgrade that gives the baggage harness keyword that allows you to use and exploding 6’s strat?
You should have 6 Warlord Traits. If there is no way to give exploding 6’s back to the Great Knarlocs do to the possibility of having too many of them running around now, it would make a good aura warlord trait. Another one could be something related to Falling back and charging. You could do a more fighty one too, something like +1S, +1A and +1 W and/or a more durable one like +1T, +1W, 6+ FNP. A Kroot version of precision of the hunter (re-rolling hits and wounds) would be cool too.
I like the relic’s so far, especially the Railbow; feels very much like a Tau upgrade to Kroot tech. Would be cool to see a bit more of this, things they have been give (or more likely scavenged) from other races that they use to their benefit. Perhaps a Blackstone Fortress fragment that has a negative effect on all psykers or something would be an interesting tech option? Some kind of Power Klaw that was taken as a trophy from an Ork Warboss?
I like that Quillstorm strat, that’s simple, but still pretty cool.
A Trap Well Laid is a really fun little strat, not sure why that was left by the wayside.
Another cool strat would be a unit that is in light cover gets the benefits of dense as well and vise versa.
Would be cool to have at least Angor Prok as a hero unit, but one or two others wouldn’t hurt either.
One thing you could do if you wanted to go the subfaction route is design a handful based on different kinds of prey that they try to consume. Say, Craftworld Eldar is more psychic focus, Orks are tougher, Humans are more dogged ( Ld buff and maybe some kind of shooting benefit), Space Marines could be the benefits from some specific glands that they Kroot can adapt to better like they now all spit acid or something, Drukhari could be a more viscous close combat style, and maybe the last could be a more animalistic one (reduction in BS in favour of WS or something).
I hope that all helps, this is a great project you're working on.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/04 21:25:33
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