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Hey,

My friends and I are having a tournament amongst ourselves in the coming weekend.

It's 1,250 points there is imperial guard, ultramarines, tyranids, necrons, elder. Two tables of 4 foot x 4 foot.

I want to use my infantry platoons with plasma guns and was wondering if it's more effective to take the autocannons or lascannons in their own squads or to have infantry squads with plasma gun and the heavy weapon.

I'm just concerned that taking the heavy weapon in the squad will make it less useful as it can't fire when I move squads to capture objectives or get in plasma range.

Thanks

whynotboth.gif

Since infantry heavy weapons are free it doesn't matter if you're taking HWS already, you can still take a HWT in every squad. But they want to be lascannons every time. Autocannons are a case of GW failing at math, since HBs got D2 and ACs got no buffs heavy bolters do equal or better damage against almost every target. Lascannons are the default option because they offer you vital anti-tank/elite shots that you can't cover with the random lasguns/vehicle hull guns/etc you already have in your list. HBs are ok-ish, avoid the other options.

The reason you don't want to take HWS is not that they prevent you from taking infantry HWTs, it's that HWS are too much of a glass cannon. They get one shot at most, buffed by their stratagem, and then they die in your opponent's first shooting phase with a token amount of effort. That's just not enough value out of your 50 points. The only thing they're decent at is taking 3x mortars and camping behind LOS blocking terrain to do a tiny amount of damage while scoring VP for sitting there. And even then IMO the minor damage they do isn't worth spending the heavy support slot and sacrificing the general utility of an infantry squad, storm trooper squad, etc.

(And yes, the heavy weapon in an infantry squad will usually be firing at BS 5+. But a lascannon at BS 5+ does more damage than a lasgun at BS 4+ and the lascannon is free.)

I see what your saying about it being a glass cannon and getting neutered after 1 turn.

Given lascannons are free I see the advantage in the extra 8 wounds so to speak.

What about the utility of the lascannon? Each time I move i can't use it and lose 2 lasgun shots if enemy near. Whereas if I stay stationary to use it I miss out on entire squad shooting.

Or does this not make a meaningful difference or impact?

Of course of I'm stationary and enemy comes within 24 I can use everything (las, plasma)

There is a balancing act, sure.

Two lasguns with Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! is potentially 8 shots, which with Hammer Of The Emperor will do about twice as much to a squad of marines as a lascannon. Heck, auto-wounding 6's to hit means they even compete well with the lascannon against a knight.

But even if you want to engage on the move - and you do, because you need to take and hold stuff to score points - you rarely want to voluntarily be within 12" of something scary because even 10-man guard squads tend to undergo spontaneous existence failure in those circumstances....

I think not taking a heavy weapon in a guard squad makes a degree of sense if you plan on pushing forwards with it, but I'd argue that on the other hand regular infantry squads (rather than, say, conscripts, special weapons squads, bullgryns, scions and allies various) aren't who you're supposed to be pushing forwards with in the first place.

MMBR wrote:


What about the utility of the lascannon? Each time I move i can't use it and lose 2 lasgun shots if enemy near. Whereas if I stay stationary to use it I miss out on entire squad shooting.

Ok, this is the 2nd time you've said you can't move & fire heavy weapons. Why do you think this?

Assuming that you are playing 9e, thus is flat out incorrect.
Per the rules, if infantry move & then fire a heavy weapon, they need 1 worse to hit. So you'll need a 5+ to hit with a moving heavy weapon.
5+ =/= can not fire, just less likely to hit.

Next up? You do not lose 2 lasgun shots. You lose 1. Because the unit entry tells you that a heavy weapons team is armed with [/u]A[u] lasgun, frag grenades, & a heavy weapon.

We are playing using 5th edition 40k rulebook.

We are still talking amongst ourselves about getting latest edition rule book or not.

Codexes are a bit split, I have a 5th edition chaos and 3rd edition 1st version imperial guard (year 2000). I'm taking my guard as it's been years since I used the models.

Opponents have different edition codex variation.
Eldar and necron players = codex that was valid in 4th
Ultramarine = codex that was valid in 5th
Tyranid = codex that was valid in 4th

Back in the day the conventional wisdom was to pair Autocannons with Plasma Guns.

They generally had the same target profile, and there was a lot of cross-over in what they could and could not hurt.

Lascannons seemed like an obvious match given the ability to crack armour, but the difference in Strength meant that the Plasma Gun would be left in the dust for targets the Lascannon could deal with.

Of course, now everything wounds everything on a 6, and you can even have your Guard auto-wound anything on a To Hit of 6, so take the guns with more shots.

MMBR wrote:
We are playing using 5th edition 40k rulebook.

Oh. You should make that clear then. The assumption is that everyone is playing the current game and you'll get advice based on that assumption. None of it is going to be relevant to playing a custom version with the 5th edition core rules and older codices.

Now that you've clarified the situation the best option is HWS. You don't get free HWTs and the inability to move and fire is a problem. HWS are still not a great unit but at least they can deploy in cover for a 4+ save and maybe do a bit of damage before they die.

Oh, right, 5th Ed.

Then Plas/Autocannon all the way.

Don't waste your BS3 on Lascannons. Use the gun that should net you one hit every turn.

Alright then, so it sounds like autocannons for HWS and plasma guns alone for infantry squads so they can move and shoot

HQ = Command platoon

Command squad:
Captain with carapace and power sword 70pt
4 x plasma guns 60pts

Heavy weapon squad:
3 x autocannon 110pts

Heavy weapon squad:
3 x autocannon 110pts

Troops:

Platoon 1:
Lieutenant with power fist + 2 plasma guns 66pt
Squad 1 plasma gun 68pts
Squad 2 plasma gun 68pts

Platoon 2:
Lieutenant with power fist + 2 plasma guns 66pt
Squad 1 plasma gun 68pts
Squad 2 plasma gun 68pts

Fast attack:
Hellhound 70pt
Hellhound 70pt

Heavy support:
Demolisher + HHB + plasma cannons + smoke launchers 178pt

Demolisher + HHB + plasma cannons + smoke launchers 178pt

Total 1,250 points on the nose

Leaves me with following models left over:
20 Guardsman of whom 2 have plasma guns
5 ogryn

This is 5th Ed. And you're using the first 3rd Ed Guard Codex? This one?

Why are you taking any close combat weapons on your officers at all?

Officer weapons are ornamental. They are not meant to be used. Officers are meant to provide Leadership bubbles and stay hidden (for that matter, get a Standard Bearer for re-rolled Ld tests within the command bubble). And why are your squads moving? They should be laying down firepower from as far away as possible, not watching as the very fragile HW units get taken out turn one. If you want something to move, take an Armoured Fist squad.

Guard are about shooting. Shoot!

Also Hellhounds are kind of garbage. If you were using the second 3rd Ed Guard 'Dex this'd be a different story. Then the Hellhounds get much better.

That is indeed the codex, It was my first intro to 40k. It's a hard codex, overpriced and underpowered units. Being 11 of course I built an army based on emotion and fantasy than logic haha.

Lucky for me the reason I have the left over 20 Guardsman is cause my 2 hellhounds could also be used as 2 chimera to make 2 armoured fist platoons.
For 1, 500 point games I could use my ogryns.

When I say assault with infantry I am being lazy with my English. What I really mean is move forward to capture objectives or table quarters and still be able to shoot entire squad I.e. don't loose out on using heavy weapons whilst keeping flexibility to move.

Hence original question of autocannon in infantry squads or hws 🤓

As I'm not taking ogryn and I lack close combat of any sorts and I had an awkward number if points left over I thought I'll spend on giving officer some ability to hurt enemy in hand to hand. I take your point about the standard bearer and I should be able to take with friends permission even though I don't have the model.

So I suppose the list would look like:

HQ = Command platoon

Command squad:
Captain 55pt
4 x plasma guns 60pts
Standard bearer 10pt

Troops:

Infantry platoon 1:
Lieutenant + 2 plasma guns + autocannon 66pt
Squad 1 plasma gun + autocannon 83pts
Squad 2 plasma gun + autocannon 83pts

Infantry platoon 2:
Lieutenant + 2 plasma guns + autocannon 66pt
Squad 1 plasma gun + autocannon 83pts
Squad 2 plasma gun + autocannon 83pts

Armoured fist platoon 1:
Chimera with Turret HB/HF and HHB/HHF 85pt
Squad with plasma gun 68pts

Armoured fist platoon 2:
Chimera with Turret HB/HF and HHB/HHF 85pt
Squad with plasma gun 68pts

Heavy support:
Demolisher + HHB + plasma cannons + smoke launchers 178pt

Demolisher + HHB + plasma cannons + smoke launchers 178pt

Total 1,251 points

Leaves me with left over:
5 ogryn

Opponents are using codexes from their time as well:

1 x necron player = codex that was valid in 4th
1 x eldar player = codex that was valid in 4th
1 x tyranid player =codex that was valid in 4th
1 x ultramarine = codex that was valid in 5th

We agreed to use 5th edition 40k rulebook as we enjoy this version the most over earlier editions. We are considering latest version but this requires group consensus.