Switch Theme:

Chaos knights (un)intentional cheese?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in hr
Been Around the Block




A question for lovers of things knightly and chaosy:

While trying to make the biggest killy chaos knight the rules might allow, I stumbled on something so please give me feedback.

So, a stratagem that gives a knight allegiance to a chaos god - if khorne is chosen, and the knight is Abominant, it loses the psyker keyword and manifest ability, and gains +1WS and +1A.

Also, any Khorne Favour of the dark gods ALSO grants the Abominant the +1WS and +1A, whilst removing psyker keyword and manifest ability.

Now, I read through both the stratagem and Favour of the dark gods explanation and the only limit is that the stratagem can be used only on a model with no Favours of the dark gods. Looking at when both of the abilities are selected, it is during the muster your army step.

So techically...as the rules are written...if the stratagem is used first, then the Favour of the dark gods, a knight Abominant can get +2WS and +2A. Even more, if that strategem is used, a knight can actually be an unholy abomination that has both Khorne and Tzeench keywords (if a Tzeench Favour is chosen, ofc).

It obviously wasn't intended that this cheese can be used, but as I read through the rules, I can't find anything to make it not valid.

Discuss please
   
Made in ca
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






From my interpretation, the "chosen by the Gods" strat is used before the battle (according to the wording in the strategem), so after army building which would include choosing Favours.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




 jaredb wrote:
From my interpretation, the "chosen by the Gods" strat is used before the battle (according to the wording in the strategem), so after army building which would include choosing Favours.


The exact wording is "Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. Select one CHAOS KNIGHTS model from your army that does not have a Favour of the Dark Gods."

And the exact wording in the Favour of the Dark Gods sections: "If your army is battle-forged and includes any CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments, then when you are mustering your army, you can upgrade any....models from your army by giving them one Favour of the Dark Gods..."

So it is MUSTERING and MUSTERING -same phase, just use the stratagem SLIGHTLY before giving the model the favour.

ALSO ADDENDUM: Same thing with relics - if playing nephilim, you first use the stratagem in the codex (as it can't be used to give a model two relics - but it can be used to give it one, the FIRST one. So when it is used up, the model has one relic.

Then, using the relic stratagem in the nephilim CA, which has no such limitation, you give it a SECOND one.

Thoughts on that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/22 16:58:13


 
   
Made in ca
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Huh, it is a weird interaction.

I don't think you'd get +2 ws and attacks though, as you'd no longer be a psyker after the first ability is applied.

It does seem like you could have Two separate marks.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




 jaredb wrote:
Huh, it is a weird interaction.

as you'd no longer be a psyker after the first ability is applied.

It does seem like you could have Two separate marks.


Nowhere does it say that you NEED to be a psyker, only that if the chosen unit is a Knight Abominant that it loses the Psyker but gains the WS and A.

In short, the gain of WS & A is not conditioned on the ability to lose the psyker keyword, but only that the unit is an Abominant.
   
Made in ca
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Guess so, I'd probably check with the TO of an event you go to if you're going to use this combo, as it's clearly a loophole and not intended. But raw, yeah

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I have to give you a hard No on this.

Favor of the Dark Gods is a unit upgrade. It is done when selecting the unit as part of your army. That is before you have an opportunity to use a stratagem on the unit. Therefore you can never use the Chosen By the Gods Stratagem on a unit and then go back an add Favor of the Dark Gods to the unit.
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




 alextroy wrote:
I have to give you a hard No on this.

Favor of the Dark Gods is a unit upgrade. It is done when selecting the unit as part of your army. That is before you have an opportunity to use a stratagem on the unit. Therefore you can never use the Chosen By the Gods Stratagem on a unit and then go back an add Favor of the Dark Gods to the unit.


OK, but as I pointed out before, the wording puts both of the selections in the same "moment" if you will, and that is when you are MUSTERING your army (as is written). So unless you can substantiate your claim with something written in the rules, then that is just your subjective opinion, and as such - invalid, because I can't find anything in the lines of:

"...during the mustering step, you first select a unit, then upgrade it, and then apply any stratagems to it."

If you did, kindly point me to where it is written.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
I have to give you a hard No on this.

Favor of the Dark Gods is a unit upgrade. It is done when selecting the unit as part of your army. That is before you have an opportunity to use a stratagem on the unit. Therefore you can never use the Chosen By the Gods Stratagem on a unit and then go back an add Favor of the Dark Gods to the unit.


I have to give you a hard no on this. Both are used when mustering your army. Using the strat first, then using favour of the dark gods is fine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/23 07:19:40


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd say no. The stratagem says you can't use it on a model with a Favour, which would be a pointless stipulation if you could simply reorder when you pick the Favour and when you use the strat. This is one of those classic YMDC questions, where there isn't a specific prohibition, but the context makes it extremely clear what the intent is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/23 09:06:44


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Intent is irrelevant. In 8th people used to blow up their rhinos with overcharged plasma, so the unit inside had to disembark and could charge after disembarking from a transport that has moved. GW said that this wasnt intended, but people did it anyway. They had to change the disembarking rule to disallow a unit from charging after disembarking from a destroyed transport in the same turn.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

ThulsaDoom wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I have to give you a hard No on this.

Favor of the Dark Gods is a unit upgrade. It is done when selecting the unit as part of your army. That is before you have an opportunity to use a stratagem on the unit. Therefore you can never use the Chosen By the Gods Stratagem on a unit and then go back an add Favor of the Dark Gods to the unit.


OK, but as I pointed out before, the wording puts both of the selections in the same "moment" if you will, and that is when you are MUSTERING your army (as is written). So unless you can substantiate your claim with something written in the rules, then that is just your subjective opinion, and as such - invalid, because I can't find anything in the lines of:

"...during the mustering step, you first select a unit, then upgrade it, and then apply any stratagems to it."

If you did, kindly point me to where it is written.
Good luck getting anyone to agree to your tortured interpretation of the rules here.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
ThulsaDoom wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I have to give you a hard No on this.

Favor of the Dark Gods is a unit upgrade. It is done when selecting the unit as part of your army. That is before you have an opportunity to use a stratagem on the unit. Therefore you can never use the Chosen By the Gods Stratagem on a unit and then go back an add Favor of the Dark Gods to the unit.


OK, but as I pointed out before, the wording puts both of the selections in the same "moment" if you will, and that is when you are MUSTERING your army (as is written). So unless you can substantiate your claim with something written in the rules, then that is just your subjective opinion, and as such - invalid, because I can't find anything in the lines of:

"...during the mustering step, you first select a unit, then upgrade it, and then apply any stratagems to it."

If you did, kindly point me to where it is written.
Good luck getting anyone to agree to your tortured interpretation of the rules here.

Agreed.

p5 can go on about intent being irrelevant all they want. But when the two options are having a strat with a clause in it that literally does nothing (as the quoted post and p5 suggest), or applying some common sense that allows that clause to actually do something I know which one is going to be the answer, and which one any reasonable opponent or TO will choose.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You cannot use a start on a unit before it's appeared on your list. You use favour at the point you add to your list.

Another p5 torture.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You cannot use a start on a unit before it's appeared on your list. You use favour at the point you add to your list.

Another p5 torture.


Not true. Both rules are used when mustering your army.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As usual, incorrect info.

While they are during the step where you muster, if the unit hasn't been rostered it doesn't exist to be selected as a target for the strat. And it's when you roster that the unit gets its favour

Last word on this as bored with p5 torturing the rules for their benefit.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Both rules literally say when mustering your army. Your rule book must be different from mine if it doesn't say that.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Still torturing rules for no benefit I see.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

At what point do the mod apply the Site Holiday Stratagem to p5 for repeatedly derailing threads to thread lock with tortured, torturous rules mangling? Single-handedly wrecking this sub forum.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
At what point do the mod apply the Site Holiday Stratagem to p5 for repeatedly derailing threads to thread lock with tortured, torturous rules mangling? Single-handedly wrecking this sub forum.



Its you who deserves a timeout for constantly attacking me personally, violating the tenets of YMDC. And not contributing anything useful to a rules discussion.

1a Criticize the opinion, not the person.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/25 07:25:24


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte




 JohnnyHell wrote:
At what point do the mod apply the Site Holiday Stratagem to p5 for repeatedly derailing threads to thread lock with tortured, torturous rules mangling? Single-handedly wrecking this sub forum.


Please don't get p5 in trouble... they are a constant source of entertainment for my gaming group ^_^
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




RAW:

It does seem to work.

If your army is Battle-forged and includes any CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments, then when you are mustering your army, you can upgrade any WAR DOG-CLASS, ABHORRENT-CLASS or TYRANT-CLASS models from your army by giving them one Favour of the Dark Gods, chosen from those presented here.


This model gains the KHORNE keyword.
Once per battle, at the start of a Fight phase, the bearer can activate the Blood Shield. When it does, until the end of that phase:
Each time a melee attack is made by the bearer, invulnerable saving throws cannot be made against that attack.
Each time a melee attack is made against the bearer, invulnerable saving throws cannot be made against that attack.
If this model is a KNIGHT ABOMINANT, it loses the PSYKER keyword and cannot manifest psychic powers etc., but its Weapon Skill characteristic is improved by 1 and its Attacks characteristic is increased by 1.


Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. Select one CHAOS KNIGHTS model from your army that does not have a Favour of the Dark Gods. That model gains one of the following keywords: KHORNE, TZEENTCH, NURGLE, SLAANESH, PANTHEON UNDIVIDED. A KHORNE KNIGHT ABOMINANT model loses the PSYKER keyword and cannot manifest psychic powers etc., its Weapon Skill characteristic is improved by 1 and its Attacks characteristic is increased by 1.


I'm not seeing any rules about the ordering you must use for mustering. It seems very free form but I might be missing an important passage.

So strat first then favour second. Someone mentioned the relic strat from Nephilim and the relic strat from a codex and there the Nephilim strat says use this strat after choosing your Warlord which does generate a soft order on how you use them.

Slipspace wrote:
I'd say no. The stratagem says you can't use it on a model with a Favour, which would be a pointless stipulation if you could simply reorder when you pick the Favour and when you use the strat. This is one of those classic YMDC questions, where there isn't a specific prohibition, but the context makes it extremely clear what the intent is.


I wonder if you could argue that that line in the strategem means you don't get any of the lines after if it does have a Favour of the Dark Gods.

RAI:

You can make a NURGLE SLAANESH Knight or a TZEENTCH KHORNE Knight. This seems very unlikely to be GW's intention. See also Slipspace's observation.

Practical life advice:

Friendly games - ask your friend if they mind you having a WS1 A5 (15 attacks) Abominant for 1CP rather than a WS2 A4 (12 attacks) Abominant. Given there is a warlord trait that also gives out +1A for 1 CP (plus re-roll 1s to hit in melee) I don't think you are really scamming anything here.
Tournament games if you are a decent (skill and moral fibre) player - ask the TO before you submit the list to the tournament to get a pre ruling then have fun if allowed.
Tournament games if you are Sweaty McSweatface - arrive on the day and tell your first opponent that you have WS1 and 15 attacks (explaining why is extremely optional). Bonus sweatiness points if your opponent is clearly at their first tournament, says they will trust you with regards to the rules and they have a beautifully painted yellow Imperial Fists army with 15 Primaris Reivers, a Hammerfall Bunker and a Primaris Firestrike Servo-Turret. Try your best to make sure they drop after the game and never come back!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 10:48:14


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

It hasnt been FAQed, so its either intended, or no one has noticed yet, or GW doesnt care.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 12:47:50


 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




I doubt the question has been frequently asked enough to generate a FAQ.

Do remember that if you didn't get a pre tournament ruling from the TO, that you run the very real chance of getting an in tournament ruling that says "no".
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Which rule entry is written first?

If the Strategem section appears subsequently, then I think it is clear that the two are mutually exclusive.


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Look no further.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It seems patently obvious that you can’t use the two together. Doing otherwise and expecting anyone outside of an internet thread to a free with you invites disappointment. Write to GWFAQ if it bothers you enough, but you know their answer before you even set to typing.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

What seems patently obvious and what not is irrelevant. When you write an email to GWs FAQ email address you get an automatic reply which says :
Spoiler:

1. Read The Rule and Check the Rare Rules. This may seem obvious, but first of all, read the rule in question - it’s best not to rely on what you’ve been told, so we recommend you find the printed version of rule and read it word by word. Often this will resolve the question. Don't forget that there is also a series of rare rules in the back of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book and in the Errata document for that book which cover a large number of unusual rules interactions.

2. Go Upstream. If re-reading the rule doesn’t provide an answer, read any other rules that relate to the rule in question (we call this ‘following the question upstream’). For example, if the rule modifies to hit rolls, re-read the rules for modifiers and the rules for hit rolls. More often than not you will find the answer you seek upstream. You may also find the answer to your question in the Rare Rules section found on page 360 of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.

3. Check The Official Design Commentaries and Errata. If you are still stuck, read the official FAQ and Errata documents on the Games Workshop community website to see if the question has already been answered (see www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/).

4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has.

5. Roll a Dice. If the rule still remains unclear, roll a dice to resolve your question for the time being (1-3 = yes, 4-6 = no). However, you should also keep an eye on the official design commentaries and errata mentioned above - if you questions is one that comes up frequently and can only be resolved with a dice roll, it should be dealt with in our next update.


Steps 1-3 have been checked, nothing there. We go to step 4. Apply rules as written. Both rules are done when mustering your army, and can be used in any order, because nothing else says otherwise.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Give over, we don’t play that BCB-lite game anymore. An autoreply email from GW is not evidence in a rules discussion. You know this but it’s more evidence that you’re just here to argue.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 p5freak wrote:
What seems patently obvious and what not is irrelevant. When you write an email to GWs FAQ email address you get an automatic reply which says :
Spoiler:

1. Read The Rule and Check the Rare Rules. This may seem obvious, but first of all, read the rule in question - it’s best not to rely on what you’ve been told, so we recommend you find the printed version of rule and read it word by word. Often this will resolve the question. Don't forget that there is also a series of rare rules in the back of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book and in the Errata document for that book which cover a large number of unusual rules interactions.

2. Go Upstream. If re-reading the rule doesn’t provide an answer, read any other rules that relate to the rule in question (we call this ‘following the question upstream’). For example, if the rule modifies to hit rolls, re-read the rules for modifiers and the rules for hit rolls. More often than not you will find the answer you seek upstream. You may also find the answer to your question in the Rare Rules section found on page 360 of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.

3. Check The Official Design Commentaries and Errata. If you are still stuck, read the official FAQ and Errata documents on the Games Workshop community website to see if the question has already been answered (see www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/).

4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has.

5. Roll a Dice. If the rule still remains unclear, roll a dice to resolve your question for the time being (1-3 = yes, 4-6 = no). However, you should also keep an eye on the official design commentaries and errata mentioned above - if you questions is one that comes up frequently and can only be resolved with a dice roll, it should be dealt with in our next update.


Steps 1-3 have been checked, nothing there. We go to step 4. Apply rules as written. Both rules are done when mustering your army, and can be used in any order, because nothing else says otherwise.
Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that if one rule says it can’t be used if you have applied a different rules means you aren’t supposed to apply those rules together regardless of ordering.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Give over, we don’t play that BCB-lite game anymore. An autoreply email from GW is not evidence in a rules discussion. You know this but it’s more evidence that you’re just here to argue.


Its directly from GW, and has more weight than anything you say.

Btw, still nothing that could be considered useful from you to add to this rules discussion.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: