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So for many years I've played all things CSM, and I've just kinda grown tired of almost always playing a 'shove things forward and hit as much as possible, while being shot off the table' kinda army. I also use deepstrike, forward deployment, and other shenanigans, but always feel meh by the time I reach CC. My buddy is big into Guard, more specifically an armored column style list, and I want to try something else. I know Tau can put out a lot of shots, but I detest their range. What other armies out there can put out similar firepower to the guard? I currently also have some Craftworld Eldar, but is there anything better?

The last 2 tourneys, I've brought vehicle heavy lists (Chaos Knights & Spearhead Tau) I have played against my buddy's Harlequins and been tabled on turn 2.

 carldooley wrote:
The last 2 tourneys, I've brought vehicle heavy lists (Chaos Knights & Spearhead Tau) I have played against my buddy's Harlequins and been tabled on turn 2.

I know Harlequins have been incredibly good since the codex dropped, but I was kinda wondering how they're going to fair in the AoO meta

My Grots can put out the firepower.
I've got:
●squadrons of 4-8 grot tanks,
●Grot Mega-Tanks,
●Mek-Gunz,
●Kans,
●And Big Gunz - found in Legends.
●●Honorary grot status goes to the Grot Bomb Launcha also from Legends. It lacks the Gretchin KW, but it' launches bombs thst're literally PILOTED by grots, so....
I back all this up with a Wazbomb & some limited CC threat in the form of a beast boss on squigosaur & warboss in MegaArmor.
I like my odds in a shooting match very very much.

I'm positive Firstborn Space Marines can outshoot the Guard with the right builds (especially with all the free wargear now), but it might not be the syle you want.

We should clarify exactly what you're after. Is the intent to actually blast your friends army off the table at long range?

I'm also usually an advocate for not switching armies too, as it takes a lot of buildup. I wonder if you could get the firepower you want with Chaos by adding Spartans or the big Khorne Blood Engine thingy. I forget the name. Maybe Chaos Knights are another option too.

If I were to start a loyalist faction it would have to be Dark Angels. Always be kinda interested in the Ravenwing/Deathwing aspect.

As far as style, I thing a long range shooting army would be a nice change of pace. The idea of getting better with armies that have different strategies and playstyles is always good in my opinion. I do own CSM, Death Guard, 1k Sons, and 3 Chaos Knights(no armiger), and Eldar. I don't own any Khorne Lord of Skulls, so that's an option. I'm pretty sure I'd end up picking up World Eaters too lol.

I'd be curious to know if Eldar could cobble together some excellent shooting lists. They've certainly been able to do it in the past.

I might be able to. My Eldar collection is very spotty. I have 6 Shuriken Cannon Windriders, but only 1 Vyper and 1x3 Support Weapon. Whether I can withstand the armored column is a different story since guard tanks are more durable than eldar's

I feel like Wraithknights with dual Wraithcannon aren't as reliable at Anti-Vehicle work as one would want. They're extremely cool models though.

I think a lot of coordinated fire from a mix of Wrathknights and Armor could go pretty far. An Eldar expert would know better.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I feel like Wraithknights with dual Wraithcannon aren't as reliable at Anti-Vehicle work as one would want. They're extremely cool models though.

I think a lot of coordinated fire from a mix of Wrathknights and Armor could go pretty far. An Eldar expert would know better.

I happen to own 2 Wraithknights and 3 Fire Prisms. This could do some work. Maybe take Ulthwe for the reroll a single wound and give the Prisms an invuln.

^Nice! Yeah I was just doing a little research on Fire Prisms and they look pretty solid. Seems like the trick will be finding ways to guarantee that you're getting the drop on your opponent through use of terrain and reserves. I like that linked fire ability too. Seems like a nice way to focus fire on a target while keeping some of your forces out of harms way.

Outshoot guard as in specifically outshoot guard or outshoot any target better than guard?

If you are going to try to outshoot guard tzeentch daemons might be what I would be trying. 3+ save on everything and infantry will certainly die. Tanks are bit of a bummer as you are limited to spell mw's but then again their tanks aren't doing that much vs your 3+ saves.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I feel like Wraithknights with dual Wraithcannon aren't as reliable at Anti-Vehicle work as one would want. They're extremely cool models though.

I think a lot of coordinated fire from a mix of Wrathknights and Armor could go pretty far. An Eldar expert would know better.

wraithknights are probable not good enough, but one could do a list that spams War Walkers, Hornets, Wraithlords and Vypers to be able to spam Brightlances or whatever other weapon is best in your meta

Plenty of armies can do long range shooting, although guard is arguably one of the few to have good options up and down the book.

Eldar historically do better as a combined arms type of force, but with Arks of Omen allowing up to six heavies, you can drop three fire prisms and 9 warwalkers, and then add some dire avengers in wave serpents.

Orks are not what one usually thinks of, but they have some volume shooting in Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy.

Tau have hammerheads and broadsides, which are both long range in heavy, and can build criis suits to featuer missiles and plasma, whcih are at least 30."

But the real newcomer to the shooty army from hell cage match is the aforementioned firstborn marines. five man lascannon squads in troops, Dreadnoughts in Elites, Attack bikes in fast, and devestators in heavy support all pack heavy weapons that are either long range or mobile.

Eldar also have decent OOLOS shooting in the Nightspinner and D-cannon, which will be useful against guard and their newly spicy mortars.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar also have decent OOLOS shooting in the Nightspinner and D-cannon, which will be useful against guard and their newly spicy mortars.

I've been wondering if Night Spinners were going to be worth running now that AoC is gone. I may have to try them. I have 4 War Walkers so I can do 2x2 and try to get more down the line.

I've also been debating on building my Harlequins and giving them a try. I have enough to do a MSU boat build that seems to be the new thing. I'd probably get tabled ruthlessly for several games until I got used to them.

 l0k1 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar also have decent OOLOS shooting in the Nightspinner and D-cannon, which will be useful against guard and their newly spicy mortars.

I've been wondering if Night Spinners were going to be worth running now that AoC is gone. I may have to try them. I have 4 War Walkers so I can do 2x2 and try to get more down the line.

I've also been debating on building my Harlequins and giving them a try. I have enough to do a MSU boat build that seems to be the new thing. I'd probably get tabled ruthlessly for several games until I got used to them.

FWIW, I was getting solid results out of my night spinners before AoC was a thing. I haven't used them recently, but I suspect they'll go back to being similarly good now. War Walkers have also been doing well for me. I've been running 2 SL and 2 BLs or AMLs with the SL walker being there to eat the first few points of damage. Scatbikes throw out enough shots to scare most targets, though I'm not sure how well they'd do against an armored column.

Reapers have been meh for me this edition, but maybe they'll go back to being solid marine killers now that AoC is gone? Their biggest issue is that it's hard to justify spending CP to hide them behind terrain now that you can only take 5 in a squad (and thus can't build a wombo combo reaper castle). So they're in this awkward spot where they're too expensive for me to feel okay about letting them die, but they're also not so powerful/expensive that they warrant throwing a bunch of CP and psychic powers into. But they seem like they should perform okay against guard tanks.

Honorable mention to wraith lords who aren't especially killy shooting platforms but are respectably durable platforms; especially if you use your Strands of Fate to auto save with them against anti-tank shots. I haven't experimented much with our other long-range units since the new codex dropped.

Edit: Thinking on it, drukhari can be dead shooty if you want. It will be a lot of the same 3 or 4 guns over and over, and they'll die in droves, but you can stick a silly amount of dark light into a pure kabal list.

Play a map with some big buildings in the middle and/or sideways that can block LoS.. I cringe when someone says his CC army lost to a gunline and I see the photos of the centre being an open field and his enemy's unit is just a literal gunline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar also have decent OOLOS shooting in the Nightspinner and D-cannon, which will be useful against guard and their newly spicy mortars.

I've been wondering if Night Spinners were going to be worth running now that AoC is gone. I may have to try them. I have 4 War Walkers so I can do 2x2 and try to get more down the line.

I've also been debating on building my Harlequins and giving them a try. I have enough to do a MSU boat build that seems to be the new thing. I'd probably get tabled ruthlessly for several games until I got used to them.

FWIW, I was getting solid results out of my night spinners before AoC was a thing. I haven't used them recently, but I suspect they'll go back to being similarly good now. War Walkers have also been doing well for me. I've been running 2 SL and 2 BLs or AMLs with the SL walker being there to eat the first few points of damage. Scatbikes throw out enough shots to scare most targets, though I'm not sure how well they'd do against an armored column.

Reapers have been meh for me this edition, but maybe they'll go back to being solid marine killers now that AoC is gone? Their biggest issue is that it's hard to justify spending CP to hide them behind terrain now that you can only take 5 in a squad (and thus can't build a wombo combo reaper castle). So they're in this awkward spot where they're too expensive for me to feel okay about letting them die, but they're also not so powerful/expensive that they warrant throwing a bunch of CP and psychic powers into. But they seem like they should perform okay against guard tanks.

Honorable mention to wraith lords who aren't especially killy shooting platforms but are respectably durable platforms; especially if you use your Strands of Fate to auto save with them against anti-tank shots. I haven't experimented much with our other long-range units since the new codex dropped.

Edit: Thinking on it, drukhari can be dead shooty if you want. It will be a lot of the same 3 or 4 guns over and over, and they'll die in droves, but you can stick a silly amount of dark light into a pure kabal list.

I print an army like this in a few weeks:

1250 points Patrol det.
HQ:
Farseer
1:Fortune
2: idk
Winged Autarch

Troops:
10 Guardians with Supp Platofrm (shuriken cannon)
To use that shuriken stratagems on someone, they'll be protecting things and shoot if osmeone gets too close, protect against DS etc. although due to their size, I suspect enemy will find some angles to harm them but their damage potential compared to Rangers is much bigger if you spend some CP. If I they'll be like sitting useless, I will split to Rangers so I don't print infantry for now and will continue to use cutout 2D proxies.

Elites:
9 Wraithbaldes with Shield and Axe
5 Warp Spiders

Heavy support:
3 War Walkers - 2x Bright Lance and Scatter Lasser and 1xStar Cannon and Scatter laser (Lasers are for free so...)
These cost so much money per ONE model I know why people don't use them that much despite them being a mobile gun platform with an invul save
Wraithseer with Protect/Jinx and D-cannon - this guy carried my matches when I was using cutout proxies.. He was hiding behind a wall in the middle and one-shotting stuff. I even rerolled a roll for number of attacks when it was 1 lmao.. Plus he casts Protect on Wraithblades and has Invul Save.. and DOESNT have damage table like Wlords. It's like that rare FW model that is simply better lmao


I'm also running Children of Moragh Kek - if any war walker or wraitbhlade is destroyed, the rest get +1 to hit... If any Guardian dies, the platform get +1 to hitt aswell.. And the second is idk, Expert Crafters to reroll that Wraithseer's D-cannon wounds and Bright Lances (I always fire with them first in case they need a re-roll)


Also, Spiritseer was kinda boring for me, he was just sitting there etc. so to support Wraithblades I sent an Autarch, he's much cooler and I'm going to print a Space Elf Autarch-mommy model XD It was the best I found for free so.. He lacks power but gains cool melee, model and also has an aura for hit rolls.

votann have pretty good shooting from what i've seen, and solid enough melee that it should be a good way to ease yourself into a shooty army.