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Speaking as a shocked person who just re-read the Sisters of Battle and the part where the Cannoness refers to Space Marines rather derisively, about them being mutants. Is there animosity among most SoB and the Astartes? Honestly, I was thinking the sisters view them as Angels, and the Astartes view the Sisters as bat crap looney toons. I didn't know the Sisters think of them as deviants...

Sisters and Marines are split on theological lines at their core. It's not surprising they'd be somewhat estranged from each other.

Astartes are mutants by Imperial standards. Sanctioned mutants but mutants nonetheless. Many Sisters will see them as the Emperor's Angels but others see nothing but their genetic imperfection. The human form being utterly perfect is the core of their religion and mutants like Astartes, Psykers or Navigators are therefore imperfect, which in turn means they need purged. You have to remember that the Sororitas intensely zealous when it comes to the Imperial Creed and some take it a bit more literally than others.

Differing from the human norm is not necessarily a mutation.

Mutants are random, uncontrolled, unpredictable.

If you have a trait that differs from mainline humanity, but is inherited and passed on, that is the realm of ab/sub humans. Ogryns, etc

(Not that your average person could tell the difference, or care even if they could)

Space Marines are genetically modified. But in planned, systematic ways. Technically not mutants. But certainly within the scope of a zealot to tar with a broad brush. Not normal, ergo mutant.

Sisters and Marines have a complicated relationship. Marines are (mostly) heretical in their devotion. But were crafted by the hand of the God Emperor. They are His avenging angels of death, protecting humanity. But are post human, and deviate from the sacred form. Lot of mixed emotions there.

As Nevelon said, marines are a confusing subject for sisters.

Sisters know that marines are the Emperor's creation and that they fight his enemies and serve a purpose... But they also usually don't revere the Emperor as a god, have enough political and millitary might to get in the Ecclesiarchy's way, and are a deviation from the approved "sacred" human norm.

I imagine sisters mentally lump them into the same box as mechanicus: technically an ally, technically loyal to the Emperor, technically "human"(ish), but also probably a semi-heretical thing that ought to be wiped out once we get all these tyranids and necrons and such under control.

I'd much prefer Space Marines looked hideous. Adrian Smith's depictions of them always managed to make them look clearly inhuman. I like the idea of them having genuine thoughts and feelings, hopes and dreams, but an average human would see them with horror.

I hadn't heard this about Sisters of Battle but I think that's a good addition.

Canonically they’re meant to look odd. They’re not just massive humans. Their bodies are in subtly “wrong” proportions. Think gigantism, such as Andre the Giant. Still recognisably human, but more than simply big and tall.

The Primarchs however were said to be in proper proportion. So whilst inhumanly, unfeasibly tall, they still registered in the mind as human.

As for SoB? The opinion of one religious Nutter isn’t going to be the same as the next religious Nutter.

Keep in mind even in their ranks, actually meeting an Astartes would be incredibly rare, so few are the Astartes. To most of the Imperium, they’re mythological Angels Of The Emperor.

No idea what official lore says, but the way I see it, Sororitas have daddy issues and are jealous of Marines.. Were they not His Divinity's creation?

I can imagine many reasons for Sororitas feeling salty towards them.. it reminds me of that one nutter woman in Nemesis The Warlock holding a grudge against Johnny Pineapples (equal amounts of love, hate, and sheer crazy)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Speaking as a shocked person who just re-read the Sisters of Battle and the part where the Cannoness refers to Space Marines rather derisively, about them being mutants. Is there animosity among most SoB and the Astartes?

It varies on both sides.

Consider that groups of sisters have at various times watched marines fly into a blood rage and slaughter their own allies, have faced off against the significantly mutated space wolves, have had to deal with marines using their sisters as paint, etc. But there have also been strong alliances.

I’m surprised that there aren’t those that see the astartes as heretical on the grounds of them being thinking machines made of flesh. If you consider that all their humanity has been taken from them and they are something else, something manufactured, then it’s a fair perspective. For a cult of religious extremists either in the SOB or mechanicum

mrFickle wrote:
I’m surprised that there aren’t those that see the astartes as heretical on the grounds of them being thinking machines made of flesh. If you consider that all their humanity has been taken from them and they are something else, something manufactured, then it’s a fair perspective. For a cult of religious extremists either in the SOB or mechanicum

Nobody really knows very much about the Astartes though. When Sororitas see them as inhuman monsters it's because they're giant golems that sometimes have physical quirks like bone claws or vampire fangs. The ones that "pass" as human aren't getting that hatred.
The institution largely doesn't know that Astartes are taken as children, essentially tortured for years, cut apart and remade, then mentally rewritten before being sent off to war. At best they'll know Astartes are taken as children as some Chapters have well-known sources of recruits like the Ultramarines training academies.

 Gert wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’m surprised that there aren’t those that see the astartes as heretical on the grounds of them being thinking machines made of flesh. If you consider that all their humanity has been taken from them and they are something else, something manufactured, then it’s a fair perspective. For a cult of religious extremists either in the SOB or mechanicum

Nobody really knows very much about the Astartes though. When Sororitas see them as inhuman monsters it's because they're giant golems that sometimes have physical quirks like bone claws or vampire fangs. The ones that "pass" as human aren't getting that hatred.
The institution largely doesn't know that Astartes are taken as children, essentially tortured for years, cut apart and remade, then mentally rewritten before being sent off to war. At best they'll know Astartes are taken as children as some Chapters have well-known sources of recruits like the Ultramarines training academies.

To be fair, except the cut apart and remade bit, that also describes life in the schola program that sisters/stormtoopers/commisars come from.

Different type of torture though. Horrible training and religious education are a fair step down from "Survive on this desolate moon with nothing but this rock".

 Gert wrote:
Different type of torture though. Horrible training and religious education are a fair step down from "Survive on this desolate moon with nothing but this rock".

Just sounds like survival training to me.
'Here are the Rocky Mountains, this is your knife and compass, see you in a week' isn't entirely a joke.

I would argue that most Chapters' trials are a bit worse than the Rocky Mountains.

I want to add, that sounds exactly like the first two weeks of Ranger School.

mrFickle wrote:
I’m surprised that there aren’t those that see the astartes as heretical on the grounds of them being thinking machines made of flesh

That is an area of 40k technology that the admech in particular are relatively relaxed on. Things like vat-grown cherubs controlled by bits of cat-brain spliced with electronics are perfectly fine, and genetic tinkering and even invention in general gets a fair bit of leeway on the grounds that it all falls outside of the scope of STC templates, and therefore outside of all the rules about not violating the perfection of the machine gods designs.

I might also add, there is legit speculation as to the "purity" of the average Sororitas...They go through advanced physical augmentations, are genetically superior to the average human, and are also capable of manifesting miracles on command. That puts them squarely outside the bounds of "normal human", such as an average soldier in the guard.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might also add, there is legit speculation as to the "purity" of the average Sororitas...They go through advanced physical augmentations, are genetically superior to the average human, and are also capable of manifesting miracles on command. That puts them squarely outside the bounds of "normal human", such as an average soldier in the guard.

I feel like you latch onto the genetic superiority thing a lot despite it being utter tosh. They're not genetically superior, they're just put in an environment where they get pushed to the limits of human physicality. Sure they're going to be better than some Manufactorum worker who eats gruel and Soylent Verdant but that's because of circumstance, not genetic traits.
And again, the miracles game mechanic is not representative of the background. While the symbols or artefacts of the Imperial faith do cause harm to the Daemonic, the Sisters themselves are not special, just fanatics of a God that can influence reality. Imperial Priests and those who are just particularly devout have been shown to enact miracles before or even ascend to Sainthood.

Common man, you are like the arbiter of neutrality on lore issues. Tell me the books don't have sisters manifesting miracles on command. Surviving point blank Tachyon arrows, making physically impossible leaps, gaining enhanced strength just by invoking prayer, and my favorite, becoming able to defeat pykers when invoking or reading the texts of their saint.

As far as the genetic thing goes, they go through literaly genetic alteration in order to have their armor implants put in. There are numerous photos of the Sisters Repentia bearing the synaptic cable ports in their flesh. And those take augmentation. Hence therapy. I'm not talking Astartes level augmentation, but they do get enhanced physiological forms to a degree. The average human can't step into power armor and just control it like a person with implants can.

Having power armour plugs put in their flesh is not genetic alteration, it's physical surgery.
And as for miracles, once again it is not exclusive to those who join the Sororitas despite what you think. They are no more special than if you took any other bunch of Imperial citizens, trained them to the peak of their physical condition, and got them super religious. Before her ascension, Saint Sabbat was not a Sister nor was the girl Sainan who became her avatar during the Sabbat Crusade. The people in the Dark Imperium books who embodied the power of the Emperor such as Militant Apostle Matthias or the girl were not Sisters. The power to manifest "miracles" of the Imperial Creed is born from absolute devotion to the Emperor, not some genetic trait that is only present in girls who get selected to join the Sororitas.

Bionics don't require genetic alteration. The Sororitas armour port implants are just advanced bionics, they are inferior at providing a power armour interface to the Black Carapace implant of the Astartes.

I don't see why pure should equal average. For example, pure water is not the same as the average water I could run from the tap. Pure just means free of contaminants- in the case of the Sororitas, they mean this spiritually and in the case of mutations. However, bionics clearly are not considered impure.

We also have to consider that within the Imperium there are an insane number of broken rules, twisted rules and outright "we just ignore that one".

For example the Emperor and the Golden Throne only functions right now because of Xenos input. Eldar right into the very heart and soul of the Imperium whilst doctrine dictates that the Xenos should be purged.


The Imperium breaks its own rules all the time and broadly speaking, so long as

1) It benefits the Imperium

2) A super die-hard rule follower with power, doesn't find out

It continues. Heck a good few Inquisitors end up running around with a whole host of forbidden elements.




As for the subject of Mutants and Marines consider that the Mutant is a random development of mutation within the population. Trusted sometimes but often untrusted and burned out.
The Marine is not random mutation, its controlled, administered, guided and applied mutation.

A random mutation in the population can be a sign of Chaos. A Marine is not chaos, its an Angle created by the Imperium using methods developed by the Emperor - their God.



SoB might have political and other reasons to distrust Marines, but I don't think mutation should be one of those reasons. At least not for the average who isn't a die-hard purist.




As for the Imperiums use of alteration of the SoB, lets not forget more than half the tech they use is basically not understood and is done according to religious doctrine. They could well just have bionics of a high grade that helps them stand apart; they could also have some mutations performed upon them but might not understand that they are mutations because they operate below the skin. They aren't gifted a 2nd pair of arms; or more eyes; or ridges on their forehead or anything.

I forgot how to delete posts.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Common man, you are like the arbiter of neutrality on lore issues. Tell me the books don't have sisters manifesting miracles on command. Surviving point blank Tachyon arrows, making physically impossible leaps, gaining enhanced strength just by invoking prayer, and my favorite, becoming able to defeat pykers when invoking or reading the texts of their saint.

You must be reading different Black Library books than me. I've never seen a Sister of Battle manifest a miracle on command in any the books I've read.

I'm not saying miracles don't happen, but they don't happen because a character wills them into life like some psychic power. Instead, they are key moments that always surprise the Sister in question, often leaving them wondering why me or how did that happen?

Indeed. They speak of acts of FAITH, not acts of WILL

The whole semantic nature of the "Sisters are just humans" crowd is fething boring. They literally evoke a prayer and miraculous thing happens, "OH BUT THAT'S NOT A MIRACLE, ITS JUST A FREAK THING"

Stop it. They are just as much aberrant freaks as the other mutants they persecute. They just refuse to turn the mirror around. It's a well known trope that they are all the faults of the Catholic church, dialed up to 15. You know, the most hypocritical organization in the history of Religion?

Except there’s no evidence their powers are psychic in nature. And no mention of specific adaptations or genhancement during their training.

As Schola Progenium charges, they are of course well fed compared to most Imperial Citizens. Not necessarily nice things like, I dunno, Beef Wellington. But their foods will be nutrient dense to ensure they can reach peak fitness. Add in the potential of growth hormones, for muscle mass etc? And there’s no particular need for surgeries or genhancements.

We can again look to the Pariah Nexus to support this. Whilst somewhat diminished, their prayers and miracles still work where Psykers just…don’t. They also seem protected against its debilitating effects of ennui and that. Therefore something is going on - but it really doesn’t seem to be psychic as we commonly understand it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The whole semantic nature of the "Sisters are just humans" crowd is fething boring. They literally evoke a prayer and miraculous thing happens, "OH BUT THAT'S NOT A MIRACLE, ITS JUST A FREAK THING"

Then provide some citations from 40k novels or codexes that prove your point. Find examples that explicitly state that the Sisters of Battle are mutants or psykers.

Stop it. They are just as much aberrant freaks as the other mutants they persecute. They just refuse to turn the mirror around. It's a well known trope that they are all the faults of the Catholic church, dialed up to 15.

The Ecclesiarchy is hypocritical because it worships a man who drove all other human religions to extinction, led an atheist doctrine, and explicitly said not to worship him.
And again, actually prove your point with examples instead of hyperbole.

The Ecclesiarchy is also hypocritical because it persecutes psykers as mutants whilst worshipping one, and also barely tolerates the psykers necessary to hold together the fabric of the Imperium that they themselves rely on.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is saying Sisters are normal humans, as in average. They are clearly exceptional humans in physical ability, combat skill, and faith. However, they are merely near the peak of what a human can achieve naturally, and then given the best equipment a fabulously wealthy religious organisation can buy.