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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The main hive world we know about is necromunda. We see the horrid living conditions and the daily fight for life and the gang warfare in the lower parts of the hive. We know there is an underhive where monsters and mutants live. And at the top are rulers and noble houses constantly playing a deadly game of politics and worrying about imperial tithes, planetary defence etc

But have we ever seen the middle of the hive? Is there a spot where there’s some sort of middle class leading a comfortable lifestyle, unaware of what’s up and what’s down? Scientists, civil servants etc who just in the right place to not worry about the politics of running a massive hive and wealthy enough that they can keep away from the gangsters down stairs
   
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I think hive dwellers always need to worry about politics. If they aren’t active in it then they will be pawns to be sacrificed.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Longtime Dakkanaut




The middle of the hive in Necromunda, such as Hive City in Hive Primus, is composed of basically factory drudgery. People living hand to mouth, one shift to the next. If not a factory, then they would be working in endless offices as low level office drudges. Even then, all of these would be affiliated with a House or Guild. If not actually officially affiliated, there probably would be under the table protection money or other kickbacks. There are no real independents of any significant size.

Comfort only comes in the Spire. The professional classes would still be affiliated with a House though and would still be at risk of falling afoul of House intrigues.
   
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dorset

mrFickle wrote:
The main hive world we know about is necromunda. We see the horrid living conditions and the daily fight for life and the gang warfare in the lower parts of the hive. We know there is an underhive where monsters and mutants live. And at the top are rulers and noble houses constantly playing a deadly game of politics and worrying about imperial tithes, planetary defence etc

But have we ever seen the middle of the hive? Is there a spot where there’s some sort of middle class leading a comfortable lifestyle, unaware of what’s up and what’s down? Scientists, civil servants etc who just in the right place to not worry about the politics of running a massive hive and wealthy enough that they can keep away from the gangsters down stairs


basically, their IS no "safe, middle" class.

above the lawless underhives are the manufactory levels, where the products for the Imperial Tithe are created. the people here basically just another resource, as valuable as scrap metal and replaced with as little thought. this is where the majority of the population lives. they are born, live and die in service to the factories.

above them you have the sort of people you are thinking of, but they are effectively just the lowest rung of the nobility. they are fully involved in the political games of their seniors, not "below" them.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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The only hive world we really know a lot about is Necromunda, yet there are thousands of others in the Imperium. There’s nothing stopping you from creating your own background for a hive world, or even a single city, which has what you describe.

Of course the lack of endless deprivation and strife is not very 40K. I think the setting is big enough to have some anomalies though.
   
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Necromunda is presented as a pretty standard Hive World. Unique in its own way of course, but by no means special or standout.

There are four broad levels to any hive. Bottom up you have…

The Sump. Right down dirty deeps. Filled with trash, the occasional treasure of immeasurable value from forgotten ages. Polluted to Buggery, home mostly to the mutant and renegade.

The Underhive. Where Necromunda is really set. These are decaying but still more-or-less servicable areas of industry, where the Great and Clan Houses wage their clandestine wars.

The Hive/Up Hive. This is where life is, for want of a more accurate term, civilised and organised. Proper foundries. Proper churches. The bulk of a given Hive’s population and therefore workforce live here in relative comfort. Not luxury as such, but regular meals, clean-ish water etc. Sufficiently pleasant that being able to move Up Hive is the desire of many if not all Underhive inhabitants. This is the seat of the Clan Houses.

The Spire. Your La-di-da, lap of luxury living, the preserve of the the ruling class and their immediate toadies. Still by no means safe due to the encouraged social-political strife. Well beyond the reach and means of all but the tiniest fraction of the population. Not even some Noble Houses have space there.

But those categories are broad, and by no means particularly well defined. But generally speaking, the higher up you live, the more pleasant your life will be, even if you’re a worker. You may find that proper border areas are a mix of what’s immediately above and below.

Upper Underhive may be fairly luxurious, as those with a preference for the relative freedom the Underhive enjoys spend their fortunes on making it that little bit nicer. Lower Up Hive may be run down and tatty. The last gasp at relative comfort and grandeur of falling or fallen houses, and so on.


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As for a Goldilocks Zone? I’m sure they will exist. But I’d guess it depends what the individual considers Just Right. For some, the Underhive is their paradise, where your fortune can be made through graft, criminality and a smidge of luck. For a Spire dweller living anywhere outside of their luxurious chambers and wealth is frankly unconsciable.

A first or second generation descendant of a family that moved Up Hive from the Underhive, and thus has pretty good info on how tough Underhive living can be might simply count their blessings, and be satisfied with the meagre luxuries of their current position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/19 12:11:41


   
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The ideal solution is getting offworld, just like the white dwarf scenario for ultra-powerful gangs where the player wants them to end their story permanently with a really difficult narrative scenario.

Once you're in the void with a ship to command, all sorts of things become possible.

This is depicted as extremely unlikely, but possible within the Necromunda setting, probably more likely under current events in the setting with the general management of the planet starting to crumble.
   
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What becomes possible if you have a ship? You could make your ship luxurious I guess but where would you go that’s not the same as necromunda
   
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Like a hundred thousand other worlds that aren't Hive Worlds? Not every world in the Imperium is a hellhole.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




For someone that has spent their whole life in a hive, artificial enclosed environments are what they are used to. There's no particular reason they would seek out natural environments with open sky, and might find such environments deeply unsettling. Moving up in the world would be like moving into the Spire or re-creating something like it either in their own hideout or on a ship.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/19 20:34:21


 
   
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mrFickle wrote:
The main hive world we know about is necromunda. We see the horrid living conditions and the daily fight for life and the gang warfare in the lower parts of the hive. We know there is an underhive where monsters and mutants live. And at the top are rulers and noble houses constantly playing a deadly game of politics and worrying about imperial tithes, planetary defence etc

But have we ever seen the middle of the hive? Is there a spot where there’s some sort of middle class leading a comfortable lifestyle, unaware of what’s up and what’s down? Scientists, civil servants etc who just in the right place to not worry about the politics of running a massive hive and wealthy enough that they can keep away from the gangsters down stairs


The imperium tends to see anything resembling a middle-class as an opportunity to sacrifice "luxury" for efficiency. It's probably rare for there to be a position in a hive where you're safe from both violent crime and politicking. That said, there are "sweet spots" in some of the hives we've seen where you don't have to worry *as much* about such things. There are also individuals within given zones that, while not the norm for their tier, seem well enough off to live in relative comfort without being full on "wealthy" in the upper hive sense.

So off the top of my head, you've got:

* The scribe guy from Rites of Passage. He's clearly not immune to politics, but prior to the events of that book he and his partner lived relatively safe and comfortable lives in a modest apartment.
* In Wraithbone Phoenix, we see some salvage yard workers. Their lives are far from "good," but they're generally beneath the notice of political types and safe from gangers and such. We also see a sort of middle management type for that salvage yard who makes enough money and has enough free time to go pay for sex workers, buy a firearm, etc. He seems to be relatively safe from criminals until he intentionally wanders into known unsafe areas.
* Broken City features a story about a "retired" ganger who basically traded some cash and favors for a safe, boring clerical job. She seems to be relatively safe except for the bit where her partner gets involved with some criminal types. There's also a physician who's basically an upper-middle-class guy running his business in the only-mildly-dangerous part of town who seems to be relatively fat and happy.
* Several of the above feature restaurant type establishments (mostly bars) that definitely aren't free of criminal elements but are apparently stable enough to remain standing, having employees, have reputations for certain discrete services, etc.

tldr; You're almost never safe from both political concerns and violent crime in a hive, but you can be relatively safe and comfortable in the right niche.


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El Torro wrote:
The only hive world we really know a lot about is Necromunda, yet there are thousands of others in the Imperium. There’s nothing stopping you from creating your own background for a hive world, or even a single city, which has what you describe.

Of course the lack of endless deprivation and strife is not very 40K. I think the setting is big enough to have some anomalies though.


This. Side note, I don’t want to be that guy or misinterpret what he stated, but I believe Majorkill kinda proved that most (not all) imperial citizens live lives similar to ours in terms of lifestyle. Not every world is grimdark and the majority arnt. Again this isn’t for hive worlds or similar worlds. But the videos are at least entertaining to watch. There’s two videos.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjQy7ZIuRc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgw9qyZKv-Y




 
   
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Like I todays society the goldilocks zone is those that have stolen enough money from the working class.
   
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usmcmidn wrote:
El Torro wrote:
The only hive world we really know a lot about is Necromunda, yet there are thousands of others in the Imperium. There’s nothing stopping you from creating your own background for a hive world, or even a single city, which has what you describe.

Of course the lack of endless deprivation and strife is not very 40K. I think the setting is big enough to have some anomalies though.


This. Side note, I don’t want to be that guy or misinterpret what he stated, but I believe Majorkill kinda proved that most (not all) imperial citizens live lives similar to ours in terms of lifestyle. Not every world is grimdark and the majority arnt. Again this isn’t for hive worlds or similar worlds. But the videos are at least entertaining to watch. There’s two videos.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjQy7ZIuRc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgw9qyZKv-Y



Difficulty there is the Law Of Big Numbers.

There are distinctly Earth like societies within the Imperium, complete with under, working, middle and upper classes as we might define them right now. But, those are pretty much never Hive Worlds, because of the very nature of Hive Worlds and how they operate.

Even if, with numbers out my arse for demonstration purposes Earth Like planets outnumber Hive Worlds for or five to one? Due to ludicrous population density on Hive Worlds, you’ll still have significantly more people living in Hives.

I do now wonder about unemployment rates within The Imperium. Given bionics exist, including organ replacement and not just limbs? We may see comparatively little permanent disability. Even if you don’t live quite the same lifespan, giving you replacement kidneys or what have you still makes sense, because those can be reclaimed from you once you’re gone.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
El Torro wrote:
The only hive world we really know a lot about is Necromunda, yet there are thousands of others in the Imperium. There’s nothing stopping you from creating your own background for a hive world, or even a single city, which has what you describe.

Of course the lack of endless deprivation and strife is not very 40K. I think the setting is big enough to have some anomalies though.


This. Side note, I don’t want to be that guy or misinterpret what he stated, but I believe Majorkill kinda proved that most (not all) imperial citizens live lives similar to ours in terms of lifestyle. Not every world is grimdark and the majority arnt. Again this isn’t for hive worlds or similar worlds. But the videos are at least entertaining to watch. There’s two videos.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjQy7ZIuRc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgw9qyZKv-Y



Difficulty there is the Law Of Big Numbers.

There are distinctly Earth like societies within the Imperium, complete with under, working, middle and upper classes as we might define them right now. But, those are pretty much never Hive Worlds, because of the very nature of Hive Worlds and how they operate.

Even if, with numbers out my arse for demonstration purposes Earth Like planets outnumber Hive Worlds for or five to one? Due to ludicrous population density on Hive Worlds, you’ll still have significantly more people living in Hives.

I do now wonder about unemployment rates within The Imperium. Given bionics exist, including organ replacement and not just limbs? We may see comparatively little permanent disability. Even if you don’t live quite the same lifespan, giving you replacement kidneys or what have you still makes sense, because those can be reclaimed from you once you’re gone.


I can get behind the idea that hive worlds skew the statistics but even in the Eisenhorn series they heavily elude to the hives that they explore are somewhat equivalent to major cities we have around the world. Having a lot more order than realized, having a “middle” class who do have free time. They are actually really good books. Sure, Necromunda and Terra are totally different than the ones mentioned in those books but it’s your universe. You can do or think however you want. The writers/creators made it like that for a reason. The universe is to big, it can be whatever you want it to be. But in the books it legit has a type of caste system that separates the poor from the middle from the wealthy class.



 
   
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I guess it’ll be about how the population is balanced across the classes.

Given Hive Worlds tend to be industrial hubs, I suspect it’s closer to feudalistic, with the majority being workers, simply because the Planet must meet its tithe. A middle class will exist, but be a noticeably. smaller percentage than in the western world.

I need to go do some light reading on when the middle classes first emerged, but I do know it was in relatively recent history (as in past few hundred years).

We should also probably discuss what defines working/middle class, but on Dakka I’m not touching that one with a poopy stick.

   
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Linking it back to my original post I would define the working and middle class in terms of security.

Working classes have food insecurity, health insecurity, crime insecurity. They are more likely the be drafted as part of an imperial tithe and are likely to have their way of life forced on them with no way of changing it through legal methods.

The working classes provide some more sophisticated services to the hive and therefore there is greater investment in their security. Food security will come at the expense of the lower hive, they will have security for their children because they’re I’ll get a better education and be targeted for those middle class roles that their parents will vacate. As they provide a buffer between the upper and lower hive there will be greater security against crime as a first line of defence and the authorities will want to provide a greater life for themselves so will put more effort into preserving the quality of the middle class part of the hive.

Also by giving a portion of the population power and opportunity to exploit a lower portion of the population you build loyalty because you know the people above you could nock you down to be one of the exploited.

This is assuming that the hives are this sophisticated, it could just be more feudal with an aristocratic level and a peasant level.

I suppose the people that live there posted by the ad mech and other parts of the imperium will create their own protected enclaves with their own standards of living
   
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I think one problem with talking about the Imperium is its size is beyond our comprehension. Even something as simple as the "standard life" is something that likely isn't really possible to quantify for the Imperium.

You have worlds that are almost literal hellscapes all the way to Gardens of Eden. You've worlds that are hardly out of the middle-ages through to worlds brimming with technology so advanced the Imperium really hasn't got a clue how they work and even an Eldar might raise an eyebrow at.


You've worlds that are heavily indoctrinated to the word of the Emperor; and worlds where such things are guidelines not actual rules; and that's before you get to the class systems which can have their own subsets of rules, religions and such.



Everytime someone highlights a style of life ,even within a Hive Word; there's likely a story or snippet of lore out there which counters it for another Hive or another world or another sector etc....




I think also sometimes the stories tend to focus on the extremes of situation and behaviour. Extremes that might be short term not long term; or restrained to very specific situations. The result is that we get a skewed view of the setting

It's the same as how many of the Imperium's worlds have no idea about Chaos; where Xenos is something like a boogyman on the edge of space etc... Yet there are other worlds in the grips of invasion who know all too well what all those are and more.






Also my impression is that the Imperium in general leans toward a Feudal/Aristocratic kind of leadership and social structure as a very general thing. They very much have classes and I'd wager beyond the working-middle-upper class. Religious classes, Mechanicus, the various military and other orders would all likely class as their own social classes within the Imperium.

Working Class is likely broken down further and you can argue that the Underhive is a whole class below that; and yet within the Underhive there's class systems. Being in a Gang or not; being in the Police forces or not. etc....

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I wonder if rather than class based, the Imperium is caste based?

Not to the extremes of the Tau. But castes all the same.

   
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I don't think so. My limited understanding is that the Tau Castes are more based on the concept of roles/work type and such dividing you into groups.

With the Imperium a Working Class job on some worlds could be middle class on others. There's significant variation and your class is more of a social and economic based element; with religious for certain groups.

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There is also still freedom within the Imperium on a technical level.
Within the T'au system, a diplomat of the Water Caste cannot become a warrior of the Fire Caste nor could they become coupled. Theoretically, anyone can be anything in the Imperium. An Agri worker can move to a Hive and become a Clerk or enlist in the Guard or Navy. Social status is firmly rigid within the Imperium but what people are allowed to do is pretty lax. Heck, on Armageddon there were proper workers' unions and everything. No subversive Cults just plain old men and women having representation in local politics and affairs at a higher level.
   
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 Gert wrote:
There is also still freedom within the Imperium on a technical level.
I think it's Titanicus that touches upon this - a married couple move to a different planet and because she has no useful skills for that planet she has to join the PDF.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I need to go do some light reading on when the middle classes first emerged, but I do know it was in relatively recent history (as in past few hundred years).

We should also probably discuss what defines working/middle class, but on Dakka I’m not touching that one with a poopy stick.


Societies have always had some form of middle class, because very few societies only have literally two classes.

The modern middle class, defined by things like home ownership, at least some financial security, the ability to afford some luxuries, etc. really comes from industrialization. It's important to remember that prior to industrialization, it was tough to grow enough food, and even when you could, it was expensive and difficult to transport that food other than by water. It was also tough to store the food. So cities tended to only exist near ports or rivers, which allowed for surplus food to be brought in. Famine existed in western Europe deep into the 19th century, since there was neither the technological nor economic systems to allow for easy food transfer.

Once mechanization improved production, fertilizers and hybridization improved yields, railroads and then trucks improved transport, and refrigeration and canning improved storage, food insecurity has basically vanished from the developed world, and when it exists, it is usually a product of terrible governmental policy.

We also know that in every human culture, family sizes drop very quickly post industrialization. So, the question is: why are the hives so precariously overcrowded? The real world answer is because that lore was written in the vein of overpopulation dystopias, which were a big deal from Malthus through the 1990s. However, the problem appears to be mostly correcting itself.

Still, what is the lore reason for the overcrowding in the hives? Gangers don't seem incapable of the industrial work, they are almost literally surplus people. You can handwave some of the need for a huge work force by just stating that hive world factories are labor intensive, but again, we've seen how productive factories can be with fewer and fewer workers in the last few decades.

All of that throat clearing aside, there have always been people who have been able to live lives of greater security than common folk, without necessarily being emboriled constantly in Machiavellian maneuvers. In feudal states that would be skilled tradesmen, lower clergy, and even to an extent country knights. In early modern cultures, that would be scribes, merchants, clergy, and rarer talents. I would imagine that even in a system with nobility and crushing masses, there would be rare talents and trusted workers that are able to keep their heads down.
   
 
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