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If (and it's a big 'if') the book has been pulped and reprinted, then it really depends on when the problem was identified, when it was corrected, and what the problem was.

My company prints in the Far East, and once the books are off the press, shipping typically takes around six weeks. Redacting a single problematic quote would have been a plotter proof correction, which is very swiftly made and would require nothing more than swapping a PDF page, then an electronic thumbs-up.

In this scenario, taking into account scale (I'm guessing GW prints more than our relatively specialist works), frantic repacking of boxes at GWHQ and the inevitable slippage, GW could still launch Legiones Imperialis within three months.

I don't know when preview stuff goes to 'influencers', but if anyone does know, we could hazard a guess as to that date being T-3 months in an optimistic but realistic timescale – so release in October or even September isn't beyond the realms of reason.

A more substantial set of changes, which required more substantial editorial work, reproofing and so forth, would add a few more weeks to that. It'll vary hugely between publishing houses, but if GW really put noses to grindstones; I would think that a more pessimistic timescale would still see see it delivered within six months from identification of the problem.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One way which I champion is to focus an expansion on historical eras/wars.

So, let’s say Orks are first up? Go with Ullanor. Yes they’ll have some stuff rarely if ever seen in the modern era. But, erm, Boyz will be Boyz, and a Trukk is a Trukk is a Trukk.

Once the Orks are out?

Get the Guard involved and modernise Marines with….the second war for Armageddon. Maybe the third.

You want Eldar and Tyranids? Fall of Iyanden.

Basically find a narrative hook, and provide models around that hook for general purpose gaming. Step by step expanding Epic’s offerings. Ideally making all the armies valid matches for each other.

This is the approach GW used for Epic: Armageddon, with limited success – but in fairness that was a different time, and some odd initial choices (sub-lists like Feral Orks and Baran Siegemasters joining the Eldar instead of, say, Chaos).

The principle's a very good one, and I'd like to see it pursued.

While I'd love to see Orks, Eldar and the like pop up in the new Epic, I think the next two–three years of Epic releases will be following the Adeptus Titanicus route of hardback book bit-parting out the basic army list. :s

 tauist wrote:
Would you say that if one was to start collecting LI for real, and wanted to have both SA and Astartes armies, you could get a decent start by buying the starter, and one of both battleforces? These are looking like they complement each other perfectly in terms of units on offer.. and those three boxes, if bought from a discounter, would end up costing a reasonable amount considering what you get? Or better yet, throw in the current AT starter, making it 4 boxes total?

While that's a hefty chunk of change, I'd say yes, that would give you a very good start. The problem with both the starter box, and these battleforces in isolation, is that in a number of cases they give you half of a Detachment – so as an example, the starter box will give you two stands of Assault Marines, rather than the four stands you need for a standalone Detachment. (There are ways round that, with weird upgrades and awkward Formations, but they always felt like a sticking plaster solution). In general, the Solar Auxilia are less affected by this because their sprues tally up better with the army list.

Having both the starter box and battleforces will give you a much more simple and rounded army in each case – though even here, you'll end up with half Detachments of Astartes Tarantulas.

In total, you'll end up with:

Astartes
- 4 Kratos Heavy Tanks,
- 10 Rhino transports,
- 4 Leviathan Dreadnoughts,
- 4 Deredeo Dreadnoughts,
- 4 Rapier batteries*,
- 4 Tarantulas*,
- 4 Command Squads,
- 16 Tactical Legionary bases,
- 4 Terminator bases,
- 4 Assault Marine bases,
- 4 plasma Support Legionary bases,
- 4 Missile Support Legionary bases,
- 8 Contemptor Dreadnoughts,
- 3 Predators
- 2 Sicarans
- 4 Outrider bases,
- 6 Scimitar jetbike bases,
- 4 Javelins,
- 4 Land Speeders.

Those marked with * are below minimum size for the Detachment, so you'd 'need' another Astartes Support box to field them.
People fairly commonly spread out the specialists (e.g. four Terminators/Assault/Missile Marines to a base, rather than five) for space on the base, so depending on your preference, these numbers are flexbile.

Solar Auxilia
These are much better off than the Marines, with a really solid little army.

- 2 Baneblade super-heavy tanks that can alternately be built as Hellhammers,
- 12 Rapier batteries,
- 4 Cyclops remote bombs,
- 4 Tarantula sentry guns,
- 4 Legate Commander bases,
- 16 Auxiliary bases,
- 8 Veletarii bases,
- 8 Auxiliary bases with flamers,
- 8 Charonite Ogryn bases,
- 8 Aethon Heavy Sentinels,
- 6 Dracosan transport tanks,
- 12 Leman Russ Strike tanks outfitted with battle cannons or Vanquisher cannons.
- 2 Malcador Tanks

... and a pair of Warhound Titans.


As an example of what you'd be able to field, here's a 1903pt Solar Auxilia list

New List 1903 / 2000pts
Gamemode: Standard
Loyalist Solar Auxillia
Formations 4
Solar Auxilia Armoured Company, 895pts
Formation Strength: 16

Break Point: 8

Compulsory

HQ: Tank Commander (1), 10pts

Battle Tank: Leman Russ Strike Squadron (6), 260pts
2 Additional Leman Russ 85pts
x6
Turret: Leman Russ battlecannon
Hull: Heavy bolters

Battle Tank: Leman Russ Strike Squadron (6), 260pts
2 Additional Leman Russ 85pts
x6
Turret: Leman Russ battlecannon
Hull: Heavy bolters

Heavy Armour: Auxilia Super-Heavy Tank Squadron (1), 100pts
x1
Turret: Baneblade cannon
Sponsons: Heavy bolters
Optional

Battle Tank: Malcador Tank Squadron (2), 165pts
x2
Turret: Malcador battlecannon
Hull: Heavy bolter
Sponsons: Heavy bolters

Heavy Armour: Auxilia Super-Heavy Tank Squadron (1), 100pts
x1
Turret: Baneblade cannon
Sponsons: Heavy bolters
Solar Auxilia Mechanised Infantry Sub-cohort, 626pts
Formation Strength: 37

Break Point: 19

Compulsory

HQ: Legate Commander Detachment (1), 16pts

Core: Auxilia Lasrifle Tercio (8), 54pts
4 Additional Auxiliaries 24pts

Core: Auxilia Lasrifle Tercio (8), 54pts
4 Additional Auxiliaries 24pts

Support: Auxilia Ogryn Charonite Section (8), 80pts
4 Additional Charonite Ogryn 30pts
Optional

Vanguard: Auxilia Aethon Heavy Sentinel Patrol (4), 60pts
2 Additional Sentinel 25pts

Vanguard: Auxilia Aethon Heavy Sentinel Patrol (4), 60pts
2 Additional Sentinel 25pts

Support: Auxilia Cyclops Detachment (4), 80pts
2 Additional Cyclops 40pts
x4
Charge: Demolition charge

Dedicated: Auxilia Dracosan Detachment (6), 222pts
5 Additional Dracosan 185pts
x6
Hull: Twin lascannons
Solar Auxilia Pioneer Company, 191pts
Formation Strength: 11

Break Point: 6

Compulsory

HQ: Auxilia Tactical Command (1), 10pts

Core: Auxilia Veletaris Storm Section (4), 40pts

Bastion: Auxilia Tarantula Battery (6), 51pts
2 Additional Tarantula 15pts
x6
Main: Hyperios air-defence missile launcher

Bastion: Auxilia Rapier Battery (6), 90pts
3 Additional Rapier 40pts
x4
Main: Quad-launcher
x2
Main: Mole mortar
Solar Auxilia Pioneer Company, 191pts
Formation Strength: 11

Break Point: 6

Compulsory

HQ: Auxilia Tactical Command (1), 10pts

Core: Auxilia Veletaris Storm Section (4), 40pts

Bastion: Auxilia Tarantula Battery (6), 51pts
2 Additional Tarantula 15pts
x6
Main: Tarantula lascannon battery

Bastion: Auxilia Rapier Battery (6), 90pts
3 Additional Rapier 40pts
x4
Main: Laser destroyer array
x2
Main: Mole mortar

Copying the relevant bits rather goes without saying, but the broader point is that spreading the army list so thinly across multiple hardback books has no possible upside for the consumer. At best it's an annoyance. I've not bought either of the expansions for a couple of reasons, and the too-little-butter-spread-across-too-much-bread nature of the army list is a key reason.

I'd dearly like to see Epic succeed, but the continued handling of the game has made it impossible for me to evangelise for it. The Tallarn Campaign book is emblematic of the reasons for that: the balance of material I do want made prohibitively expensive by material I'm not fussed about.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Apologist wrote:
Copying the relevant bits rather goes without saying, but the broader point is that spreading the army list so thinly across multiple hardback books has no possible upside for the consumer. [...]too-little-butter-spread-across-too-much-bread nature of the army list

Aside from the digital option which GW is allergic to, what's the alternative?

They release army books for each faction, which are obsolete every 6-12 months abdnneed to be repurchased as GW continues expanding the game? That's more of an annoyance than the current model IMO.

Better grouping of releases would have helped matters a great deal. Legions has enjoyed a huge number of releases, but in weird groups. Why were the Fast Attack options for Space Marines, and artillery options for Guard, included in the Titandeath expansion? The Legion and Auxilia fast attack/artillery boxes should have been released with the core game, while the Kratos/Baneblade/Shadowsword etc. would have made a better complement for Titandeath.


The card decks could also have been a way to shore things up; by including cards for the full list in decks released alongside expansions. Much more simply, however, GW could include a summary chart at the back of each expansion with an up-to-date army list.


I'd agree with your point about frustration with cards in boxes becoming outdated – except that there's little if any indication that GW are intending to provide any updates or FAQs...

On the books?

If it’s what it takes to keep these non-core games in production, I can live with it. And it’s not as if the books are otherwise devoid of content.

It also adds a certain impetus to buy more than just the new models, as players may look at the new Detachment and figure “hey, another unit of Preadtors would round that one out nicely” or similar.

Also, from a historical point of view? This is what I’m used to with Epic. In second edition, the main box had rules for a small selection of units. You then got the expansion boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords, Hive War, Chaos & Eldar Renegades), which fleshed out two armies each. From there you also got various WD releases, Titan Legions, and more WD releases.

... and that's a much more customer-friendly approach. The main box for Space Marine Second Edition (SM2) had functional army lists for five factions. The expansions tended to focus on two factions at a time (e.g. Space Marine and Guard; Ork and Squat; Eldar and Chaos), and gave expanded army lists for each, which included a complete reprint of the original lists.

In contrast, the army lists in the Legions Imperialis (LI) core box are seemingly based purely on the models immediately or imminently available, while the expansions provide only a handful of additions at a time. Are there understandable commercial reasons for that? Of course – but if the aim is to keep these non-core games in production, it strikes me that making it easy to get in on the ground floor is key.

Hell, why not take a page from the past and provide a summary sheet in White Dwarf of the new models?

Good overview, @xttz. Things have certainly changed since SM2 – I just wish GW had found another solution.

Given the huge range that has been released, I wonder how things would have differed if the core box had been purely Space Marines, with Solar Auxilia a follow-up in their own book?

I can see the advantages to having two factions in the core box. It was a great way to get the inevitably less popular SA into player's hands, tempting them to start an army. It also ensured Marine players weren't satiated with just the core box, and encouraged buying the expansions.

Still... I wonder how the releases would have looked if it had followed another route.

It's a fair concern – Adeptus Titanicus (AT) had a trifecta of books released that seemed to mark the end of its active release cycle (for want of a better phrase): Loyalist, Traitor and Matched Play guide. Taken together, these serve as a sort of v1.5 edition of the game that smooth off those few rough edges the game had – what GW do next with the game will be interesting.

For Legions Imperialis (LI), I think the model is slightly different. It's a much broader scope than AT, with far more moving parts. I think the thing I'd like to see in a year's time is a compendium that has core lists for Legions Astartes and Solar Auxilia – once those are in place, I think I'd be much happier with campaign books that introduce genuinely optional units like Legion-specific stuff, and have far less to grouse about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Future releases could also be variant Sprues.

For instance, right now it’s sodding difficult to get your mitts on Assault, Support, Heavy Support Marines and Terminators, without ending up with a load of Tacticals.

So something like a support infantry box, rejigging and reusing the existing sculpts would work nicely for me.

The Tallarn release shows that GW seem to see value in selling very similar vehicles in different boxes (Leman Russ Strike and Leman Russ Executioner & Demolisher boxes are separate, for example), so I'm cautiously optimistic about this. There are a few little suggestions like the Imperial Fists' Legion rules, for example, that reference weapons not in the game. Whether these are solid plans or hopeful future-proofing on the part of the designers, who can say?

A lot of the releases mirror the 40k-scale Age of Darkness list, from which the following infantry types are missing in LI:

Close Combat Terminators
Destroyer Squads
Breacher Squad
Recon Squad
Scout Squad
Seeker Squad

Whether all (or indeed any) will turn up in LI is unclear, but if there is a new box of infantry, I'd anticipate them theming them somehow. Something like 'Legiones Astartes Siege Assault Infantry' or something, with some or all of the above involved.

RazorEdge wrote:
Rumors say the next Book will be Molech.
Do you think we get new Models and Rules for the Knights Households?
The Solar Auxillia Range seems like to be completed?

Releases thus far haven't tallied too closely to the theme of the book (Astartes Fast Attack for Titandeath, for example), but it wouldn't surprise me to see the Mechanicus Knights and Acastus Knights arrive in plastic alongside a book about the Battle of Molech. Molech involved the Sons and Horus and Death Guard, so likely to see some Formations of Legend for those two at least.

Outstanding Solar Auxilia include the rotor cannons and volkite* Storm Sections, Hermes and Hermes Veletaris Light Sentinels, and Medical sections. Those would all fit on one sprue.

Where did you hear the rumour, out of interest?



* There are two on the infantry sprue, but no rules for dedicated volkite stands as yet.

In GW's marketing article about recreating the big battles in Legions Imperialis, the battles listed are Isstvan III, Tallarn, Isstvan V, Molech and Beta-Garmon. Obviously not a confirmation or anything, but the fact GW see it as one of the key battles means it's not quite tinfoil hat territory to expect an expansion. Note also that Tallarn and Beta-Garmon are the two settings for the existing expansion books.

Molech is the best option to feature Knights. The linked article emphasises Ultramarines and Blood Angels (though the novel makes it clear there were fewer than 500 loyalist Marines in total), and I think it unlikely GW will release an expansion without Loyalist Marines. With that said, I'd hope they'd make more of the Knights in particular here. We had an all-Titan mode in Beta-Garmon, and an all-tank mode in Tallarn, so an all-Knight mode would be a fair guess, I think.