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Was watching a video about them today on YouTube, I thought they were always a "hidden chapter" like the GK, that were created entirely by the Emperor, for the purposes of destroying rogue Chapters. He also theorized that Mauloc (Chapter Master) is a thunder Warrior in disguise. Given that he is at least as tall as a Custodian, and is basically immortal, dating back to battles before the Fall. Is there any actual factual lore about them? In the Custodes book, it's revealed they literally got Primaris troops before Gman had even announced them. They are rumored to be deeply tied to the High Lords of Terra, but if that's true, how do the Custodes know nothing about them? Why does Cawl give them Primaris before literally anyone else? Why are they able to field equipment that would be extreme relics to any other chapter, as base equipment? Power Halberds, Terterous (sp?) Terminator armor, etc. They are able to outperform and out wit both the Custodes and the Iron First, on Terra. How? Who are they? The video author states their ability to operate outside of Terran control and their access to extreme relics of war is because they are a sub chapter of one of the fallen chapters, mainly Alpha Legion (How Mauloc keeps "dying" and then popping up again elsewhere across the galaxy.) Even the Inquisitors know nothing about them.

Dude you gotta space out your questions and sentences, that's barely readable.

Now onto answering the questions:
- Asterion Moloc is not as tall as a Custodes, he's just wearing Terminator armour. He is also not immortal but it is theorised (in-universe) that the name is a title for the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs rather than a given individual.

- The Minotaur's ties to the High Lords are widely suspected but not confirmed on official records, which is exactly why the Ordo Hereticus has concerns about the Chapter. These suspected ties are also believed to be the explanation as to why the Minotaurs have larger stores of relics or advanced weaponry compared to most Chapters. While they were among the first Chapters to receive Primaris reinforcements, they were not the first but again this can be explained by their ties to the High Lords. Whenever the High Lords need a situation resolved before it spirals out of control further (usually to do with Space Marines fighting each other), they send in the Minotaurs.

- The Custodes don't know everything because they largely didn't operate outside of the palace for ten thousand years. They have spies and informants but that doesn't mean they know everything.

- When the Minotaurs deployed to Terra in aid of the Hexarchy coup, they deployed most of their Chapter compared to a small group of Custodes and a heavily depleted Imperial Fists company who stood against them. Custodes are good but not so good that only a small group can fight off a near-Chapter sized force of Astartes who are well known to be brutal attrition fighters.

- The notion that the Minotaurs are descended from Traitor geneseed comes from a FW playtester who said the current version of the Minotaurs (the bronze coloured ones) were Iron Warriors. This is just their personal canon, however, yet with many things Warhammer, it has been accepted as fact by portions of the fanbase.

Im really surprised to see you use the word gene sired, because you’re someone who doesn’t put up with weird stuff like that.

Moloch is named for a biblical god of child sacrifice worshipped by the Judeans’ neighbors. That’s what I know about the Minotaurs

Ofc the myth of the Minotaur was a different myth about child sacrifice. They both have bulls’ heads, moloch and the Minotaur

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
it's revealed they literally got Primaris troops before Gman had even announced them.

I've not read that book, but small numbers of Primaris were active before the return of Guilliman (and several chapters got them 'indirectly' - such as the Carcharodons).

The 'original' red and yellow Minotaurs from when they had Chapter Approved rules were more implied to have links to the World Eaters than any other renegade Legion (they were berzerk melee dudes - something which carried over to the FW Dreadnought character).

Their use of Primaris - assuming that anybody actually cared enough to have an explanation for it - could be linked to the Chapter taking crippling losses during the Orpheus Campaign against the Necrons, necessitating rapid reinforcement.

 Gert wrote:
Dude you gotta space out your questions and sentences, that's barely readable.

Now onto answering the questions:
- Asterion Moloc is not as tall as a Custodes, he's just wearing Terminator armour. He is also not immortal but it is theorised (in-universe) that the name is a title for the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs rather than a given individual.

- The Minotaur's ties to the High Lords are widely suspected but not confirmed on official records, which is exactly why the Ordo Hereticus has concerns about the Chapter. These suspected ties are also believed to be the explanation as to why the Minotaurs have larger stores of relics or advanced weaponry compared to most Chapters. While they were among the first Chapters to receive Primaris reinforcements, they were not the first but again this can be explained by their ties to the High Lords. Whenever the High Lords need a situation resolved before it spirals out of control further (usually to do with Space Marines fighting each other), they send in the Minotaurs.

- The Custodes don't know everything because they largely didn't operate outside of the palace for ten thousand years. They have spies and informants but that doesn't mean they know everything.

- When the Minotaurs deployed to Terra in aid of the Hexarchy coup, they deployed most of their Chapter compared to a small group of Custodes and a heavily depleted Imperial Fists company who stood against them. Custodes are good but not so good that only a small group can fight off a near-Chapter sized force of Astartes who are well known to be brutal attrition fighters.

- The notion that the Minotaurs are descended from Traitor geneseed comes from a FW playtester who said the current version of the Minotaurs (the bronze coloured ones) were Iron Warriors. This is just their personal canon, however, yet with many things Warhammer, it has been accepted as fact by portions of the fanbase.

A couple of bits to add to your excellent points:

- Moloch being 'as big as a Custodes' is probably a bit of chinese whispers that derives from him using a weapon that is at least closely related to a Guardian Spear - however, other marines, like Deathwatch watchmasters, can use these with no apparent issue.

- In one of the BL books (don't ask me which one exactly) as well as the FW Badab War books, it is strongly implied that they use extreme hypno-conditioning and recorded memory engrams to make Moloch quasi-immortal by essentially overwriting whoever inherits the title with the last recording of Moloch's personality, to add to his legend.

- It is reasonable to assume that they use such conditioning to make them extremely loyal to the High Lords (instead of the Imperium in general or the Emperor) as their trump card against any threats from Astartes or otherwise from within the imperial structures.

It is canon that the Minotaurs geneseed origin is unknown and hinted that they are possibly generated from traitor geneseed or some other forbidden source. Obviously this should never be confirmed either way as the mystery is part of the intrigue.

Iron Warriors are my own suspicion too- the heavy greek influences reference Olympia and the prediliction for aggressive attritional warfare with a focus on heavy support is also in keeping with the Iron Warriors traits. Even the berserk rage is found amongst the Iron Warriors at times (I feel this is often presented as akin to the bloody excesses of troops successfully storming a defended breach, a kind of traumatic release). The Minotaurs also display an unusually high capacity to replace losses- some of this is to do with rapid, unsavoury methods shunned by many Chapters, but it speaks to a high success rate in geneseed implantation. The Iron Warriors were also noted for this and it was a big factor in them being able to maintain such high attrition rates.

A chimeric geneseed origin is also entirely possible.

 Haighus wrote:
It is canon that the Minotaurs geneseed origin is unknown and hinted that they are possibly generated from traitor geneseed or some other forbidden source. Obviously this should never be confirmed either way as the mystery is part of the intrigue.

Iron Warriors are my own suspicion too- the heavy greek influences reference Olympia and the prediliction for aggressive attritional warfare with a focus on heavy support is also in keeping with the Iron Warriors traits. Even the berserk rage is found amongst the Iron Warriors at times (I feel this is often presented as akin to the bloody excesses of troops successfully storming a defended breach, a kind of traumatic release). The Minotaurs also display an unusually high capacity to replace losses- some of this is to do with rapid, unsavoury methods shunned by many Chapters, but it speaks to a high success rate in geneseed implantation. The Iron Warriors were also noted for this and it was a big factor in them being able to maintain such high attrition rates.

A chimeric geneseed origin is also entirely possible.

They also come (allegedly) from the 'cursed' 21st founding, where dabbling with traitor geneseed most probably happened, and having gimmicky traitor-origin loyalist chapters from that founding was a thing the writers at the time did - Sons of Antaeus with their very dead-guardy ultra resilience, whatever it is that the Flame Falcons had going, and so on. Iron Warrior geneseed would fit the bill.

21st Founding could also be the result of attempts to purify Geneseed, and that needn’t necessitate the use of Traitor Geneseed. Just someone poking and prodding/

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
21st Founding could also be the result of attempts to purify Geneseed, and that needn’t necessitate the use of Traitor Geneseed. Just someone poking and prodding/

I'm of the 'All theories are true and canon if you want them to be' persuasion, so you will not hear a 'no' from me on that

I think all manner of different tinkering occurred during the Cursed Founding. I doubt there is one unifying theory for what they did.

The Black Dragons, for example, appear to be otherwise normal Salamanders successors that had their Ossmodular geneseed tampered with.

I suspect that there are many many different experiments that bore fruit in the 21st. Founding a Chapter on traitor geneseed is comparatively straitforward and is highly likely to have occurred in a series of experiments that included sufficient modification as to create a chapter wreathed in psychic flames...

I took the Sons of Antaeus as probably having alterations to their ossmodular and/or black carapace to increase durability. Hadn't considered the Death Guard angle, I thought they were more of a resilience against toxins and poisons specifically prior to Nurgle's Blessing.

Edit: re-read the Sons of Antaeus bio. Some observers note they are as durable as Nurgle-corrupted Death Guard. I don't think this is a serious suggestion of origin geneseed, bit it could be a suggestion of Nurgle's taint in the modification process.

 Haighus wrote:
I think all manner of different tinkering occurred during the Cursed Founding. I doubt there is one unifying theory for what they did.

The Black Dragons, for example, appear to be otherwise normal Salamanders successors that had their Ossmodular geneseed tampered with.

I suspect that there are many many different experiments that bore fruit in the 21st. Founding a Chapter on traitor geneseed is comparatively straitforward and is highly likely to have occurred in a series of experiments that included sufficient modification as to create a chapter wreathed in psychic flames...

I took the Sons of Antaeus as probably having alterations to their ossmodular and/or black carapace to increase durability. Hadn't considered the Death Guard angle, I thought they were more of a resilience against toxins and poisons specifically prior to Nurgle's Blessing.

Edit: re-read the Sons of Antaeus bio. Some observers note they are as durable as Nurgle-corrupted Death Guard. I don't think this is a serious suggestion of origin geneseed, bit it could be a suggestion of Nurgle's taint in the modification process.

IIRC their Chapter Approved chapter-specific trait was literally the same as the mark of Nurgle in effect (+1 toughness without effect for the instant death treshold).

You guys are reading into fan theories too much. The Sons of Antaeus have stronger bones than regular Asartes, almost to the point of them being metallic, but they aren't born of Traitor geneseed. The comparison with Plague Marines is simply because it's an easy one to make.
The 21st Founding did see the Mechanicus tamper with the geneseed stores in order to perfect the organ but there wasn't Chaos influence.

OP, your source was disregarding written lore to speculate.

That's largely been addressed, a few more points.

1) Thunder Warriors basically were predisposed to/riddled with cancer/organ failure. Custodes and Primarchs are near immortal. Thunder Warriors aren't.

2) IIRC, it was the playtester's personal force, so it would have become canon if published, but wasn't.

3) Relics aren't not manufactured anymore. Millenia old chapters suddenly get their terminator suits issued. Storm eagles appear. Etc. Lots of little fluff bits. Production is just *low.* Minotaur replacements are automatically top of the queue

4) Imperial government is fragmented, not monolithic. The Custodes are loyal to the Emperor- the Imperial Senate (High Lords) are their own body. The Inquisition doesn't strictly have a voting member- they have a representative. The Minotaurs are hatchetmen for the High Lords for situations like Badab or the Moirae Schism- a Chapter needs to be annihilated or mercilessly sanctioned without warrior culture honor concerns interferring.

This puts them in a situation similar to the Red Hunters, a Chapter fanatically loyal to the Inquisition, whose members are so frequently mindwiped they'll show skills they don't know they have. Or the Exorcists, who exist due to the aegis of Radical Inquisitors to provide the Grey Knights with supporting boots on the ground if needed.

 Gert wrote:
You guys are reading into fan theories too much. The Sons of Antaeus have stronger bones than regular Asartes, almost to the point of them being metallic, but they aren't born of Traitor geneseed. The comparison with Plague Marines is simply because it's an easy one to make.
The 21st Founding did see the Mechanicus tamper with the geneseed stores in order to perfect the organ but there wasn't Chaos influence.

I think people see the word heretical and automatically think traitor/chaos. But the 21st founding is controversial because of what some view as the heretical tampering with the geneseed.

It’s cursed because so many of the chapters had things go wrong as a result. Though some of them have been fine.

Oh, forgot to add that the Minotaurs probably also have a lot of equipment plundered from the chapters they have brought to heel or destroyed. Space Marines in general are adept at salvaging gear, and Minotaurs frequently fight in warzones especially conducive to obtaining Marine equipment.

 Gert wrote:
You guys are reading into fan theories too much. The Sons of Antaeus have stronger bones than regular Asartes, almost to the point of them being metallic, but they aren't born of Traitor geneseed. The comparison with Plague Marines is simply because it's an easy one to make.
The 21st Founding did see the Mechanicus tamper with the geneseed stores in order to perfect the organ but there wasn't Chaos influence.

Eh, it is hard to say Chaos wasn't involved. We do not know how many different experiments occurred in how many locations. Some, all, or none of them may have been tainted in some way. The manner of the experiments is ripe for at least some involvement of Fabius Bile, for example.

The wording in the chapter approved article suggests the comparison to the Death Guard is implying that the "less sympathetic" observers think the Sons of Antaeus may be under Nurgle's taint. Are they? Who knows?! The article is deliberately vague. I don't think this suggests Death Guard geneseed though- the general toughness of plague marines is due to Nurgle far more than the geneseed of Mortarion. None-Death Guard plague marines exist. I think the Sons of Antaeus probably do not carry Nurgle's taint... but they might.

WD260 made it very clear that Bile was involved in/behind the Cursed Founding. The Magos Biologis on Inculabas provides a clear description of Bile without naming him when discussing Homo Sapiens Novus

 Haighus wrote:
Eh, it is hard to say Chaos wasn't involved. We do not know how many different experiments occurred in how many locations. Some, all, or none of them may have been tainted in some way. The manner of the experiments is ripe for at least some involvement of Fabius Bile, for example.

The wording in the chapter approved article suggests the comparison to the Death Guard is implying that the "less sympathetic" observers think the Sons of Antaeus may be under Nurgle's taint. Are they? Who knows?! The article is deliberately vague. I don't think this suggests Death Guard geneseed though- the general toughness of plague marines is due to Nurgle far more than the geneseed of Mortarion. None-Death Guard plague marines exist. I think the Sons of Antaeus probably do not carry Nurgle's taint... but they might.

It's literally just spawned from fan theory though. The Chapters associated with the 21st Founding are first and foremost unlucky, and it's only in some that this poor luck leads to mutation.
And again, the comparison between Plague Marines isn't suggesting the Sons are tainted or corrupted, just that they are as tough as a notable tough enemy. When the Sorotias on Armageddon witness the Flesh Tearers go nuts they compare them to Orks but they aren't saying they are Orks because that's not how comparisons work.
The Sons are also explicitly confirmed to be of the Ultramarines lineage but are shunned by their brethren because of their mutation.

Theories are all well and good but if we are to have proper discussions about the 40k background they have to be put to the side in favour of actual material.

BrainFireBob wrote:WD260 made it very clear that Bile was involved in/behind the Cursed Founding. The Magos Biologis on Inculabas provides a clear description of Bile without naming him when discussing Homo Sapiens Novus

Thanks! Found it in Index Astartes II. Here is the relevant passage:


This is the lab that also produced at the very least the Flame Falcons and the Black Dragons, and is suggested to have produced other chapters. It may well have not been the only lab to create Cursed Founding chapters. Deliberate geneseed modification occurred.

Gert wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Eh, it is hard to say Chaos wasn't involved. We do not know how many different experiments occurred in how many locations. Some, all, or none of them may have been tainted in some way. The manner of the experiments is ripe for at least some involvement of Fabius Bile, for example.

The wording in the chapter approved article suggests the comparison to the Death Guard is implying that the "less sympathetic" observers think the Sons of Antaeus may be under Nurgle's taint. Are they? Who knows?! The article is deliberately vague. I don't think this suggests Death Guard geneseed though- the general toughness of plague marines is due to Nurgle far more than the geneseed of Mortarion. None-Death Guard plague marines exist. I think the Sons of Antaeus probably do not carry Nurgle's taint... but they might.

It's literally just spawned from fan theory though. The Chapters associated with the 21st Founding are first and foremost unlucky, and it's only in some that this poor luck leads to mutation.

This isn't true- the mutation is largely due to specific meddling in an attempt to create improved marines. See the Chapter Approved article on the Cursed Founding and the Index Astartes article on the same. The bad luck appears to be more of a side effect of the meddling.

And again, the comparison between Plague Marines isn't suggesting the Sons are tainted or corrupted, just that they are as tough as a notable tough enemy. When the Sorotias on Armageddon witness the Flesh Tearers go nuts they compare them to Orks but they aren't saying they are Orks because that's not how comparisons work.
The Sons are also explicitly confirmed to be of the Ultramarines lineage but are shunned by their brethren because of their mutation.

"Explicit lineage" is not always helpful or definitive- the , but I don't see any reason to doubt the Sons of Antaeus are of Ultramarines stock. As I said, I don't think Death Guard geneseed is especially resilient outside of toxin resistance and really doesn't make sense as an origin for the Sons of Antaeus.

However, I think discounting the comparison to plague marines as "thats not how comparisons work" is pretty short-sighted- comparisons are made for all kinds of purposes and are context specific. The passage in question is referring to observers who likely seek to discredit the chapter, and mentioning their resilience is comparable to the 41st millennium Death Guard is clearly a suggestion their resilience comes from Chaos taint, something that is demonstrably feasible for a Space Marine to succumb too. Why would the "unsympathetic observers" mention Death Guard if they were not in some way concerned about the Sons of Antaeus? Why not compare to Ork Warbosses or Ogryn? Again, this is merely a hypothesis being suggested by some observers, no reason for the durability of the Sons of Antaeus is confirmed.

Flesh Tearers cannot turn into Orks, but Orks is what they happened to be fighting on Armageddon at the time- the comparison is simply saying that the Flesh Tearers are as bestial as the enemy they fight. If the Flesh Tearers were being compared to Khorne berzerkers rather than Orks, I would think it is quite clear that the entity comparing them is concerned about Khorne corruption given this could feasibly occur to Marines. Comparing to a beast suggests they think they are beasts, comparing to Chaos suggests they think they are corrupted.

Here is the actual text. It is explicitly in the context of "why are these Marines this tough?". So, I guess this is an "in universe" theory and not a fan one? The Imperium is a heavily suspicious place so it is hardly surprising that some are concerned that Chaos interference is (plausibly) behind some or all of these mutants.

Theories are all well and good but if we are to have proper discussions about the 40k background they have to be put to the side in favour of actual material.

See actual material above- forces of the Archenemy (almost certainly Bile himself) are linked to at least part of the Cursed Founding program. It doesn't mean the whole program is Chaos tainted, but it is likely at least part is inadvertently or deliberately.

One might also point out that nearly half of the entire chapter of WS were traitors at one point after Prospero.