Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You have to read the whole thread because the story has developed over a number of months.

To precis it, GW claimed basically that everything CH did infringed all of GW's trademarks (they claim to have dozens) so the whole company should be shut down, all the moulds and equipment destroyed, and the staff sold into slavery.

CH got some high-powered IP lawyers who said, "CH can't defend themselves against a charge of 'everything and all of everything'. It isn't justice."

The judge agreed with that, and ordered GW to make specific claims.

GW started to go a bit well, er, um, er.

GW are supposed by now to have filed specific claims and the judge is examining them.

Kilkrazy wrote:You have to read the whole thread because the story has developed over a number of months.

I have read the whole thing, i did so a while ago and have posted here before.
You dont remember?
I also know all about the recent(ish) changes and fluctuations etc. but was just wondering if the original citation was 'everything' or more specific (even though i know they did make vague accusations, i couldn't remember if there was ant specificity in there at all).

To precis it, GW claimed basically that everything CH did infringed all of GW's trademarks (they claim to have dozens) so the whole company should be shut down, all the moulds and equipment destroyed, and the staff sold into slavery.

CH got some high-powered IP lawyers who said, "CH can't defend themselves against a charge of 'everything and all of everything'. It isn't justice."

The judge agreed with that, and ordered GW to make specific claims.

GW started to go a bit well, er, um, er.

GW are supposed by now to have filed specific claims and the judge is examining them.

That actually sums most of it up fairly well, and humourously too i might add.

Kilkrazy wrote:You have to read the whole thread because the story has developed over a number of months.

To precis it, GW claimed basically that everything CH did infringed all of GW's trademarks (they claim to have dozens) so the whole company should be shut down, all the moulds and equipment destroyed, and the staff sold into slavery.

CH got some high-powered IP lawyers who said, "CH can't defend themselves against a charge of 'everything and all of everything'. It isn't justice."

The judge agreed with that, and ordered GW to make specific claims.

GW started to go a bit well, er, um, er.

GW are supposed by now to have filed specific claims and the judge is examining them.

To be a little more precise:

GW claimed that all 106 of Chapterhouse's products infringed its unspecified copyrights, which the complaint essentially claimed was everything that Games Workshop had done in connection with Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. Games Workshop also made claims of trademark infringement.

Chapterhouse filed a motion to dismiss based on lack of specificity, i.e. there's no way to respond to a complaint that lacks specific allegations and Games Workshop is required to make a succinct, specific claim under Rule 8 of civil procedure. Chapterhouse said that in alternative to dismissal, it would accept an amended complaint.

The judge terminated the motion and required Games Workshop to file an amended complaint.

Games Workshop refiled the same complaint with 4 additional paragraphs that were also largely unspecific.

Chapterhouse renewed its motion to dismiss, arguing that the complaint wasn't any different, but that if the Judge wanted to limit Games Workshop to only those very few specific claims that were made, the Defense would be fine with that.

Judge Kennelly denied the motion and required Games Workshop to respond to early discovery from Chapterhouse Studios. This was a stern way to get Games Workshop to specify its claims. Instead of giving Games Workshop another opportunity to revise the complaint, the Judge forced Games Workshop to answer specific questions posed by Chapterhouse Studios. This not only put some measure of control in the hands of the Defendant, but it also forced the Plaintiff to honestly respond to the Defendant's interrogatories.

In the mean time, Chapterhouse Answered the first amended complaint.

Presumably, this process is ongoing at this time. A status conference is scheduled for next month, or is it this month already? I think it is on the 13th of June. The conference was delayed because Paulson got representation.

My guess is that Chapterhouse Studios and Paulson will again submit motions to dismiss. It is harder to make predictions now though because we don't know what interrogatories Chapterhouse sent to Games Workshop, nor do we know what Games Workshop's responses were.

To summarize:

GW- Everything you do is a copy of our stuff, so you need to go out of business. You also used our trademarks unfairly.
CHS- Umm...are you serious? I can't intelligently respond to that and you should know better about Rule 8.
Judge- I agree. Go and fix it please.
GW- Well, everything I said before, but there's an issue with those shoulder pads (roman numerals, arrows, things like that), that Tervigon deal is kinda like our Tyranids, and those vehicle kits totally copy our vehicles. I'd be more specific, but CHS is in a better position to know what it copied.
CHS- Are you serious? The Judge asked you to be specific. "Tyranids" isn't specific. What actual works are allegedly infringed? You're still way shy of Rule 8, and you should really know better. But, if you want to go to court with roman numerals, arrows, and APC doors, we'll happily defend against those completely unprotectable ideas.
Judge- Seriously? I don't know what to make of this. I can't toss the case because GW hasn't even given me enough information to make an intelligent decision. So, instead of doing on your own, GW, I'm going to let CHS ask you any question it wants about your claims and you will have to answer them. Maybe then I'll know wtf is going on here.
CHS- To the best of our current knowledge, we deny the claims as they exist in the first amended complaint. We also think GW knew its claims were bogus when it made them, so we want the Court to punish GW.

Wow weeble, thanks!
That makes it all much clearer.
Did GW really try and 'specify' IP violation with Roman numerals??!! That seems.... well really dumb tbh.

weeble1000 wrote:Judge- Seriously? I don't know what to make of this. I can't toss the case because GW hasn't even given me enough information to make an intelligent decision. So, instead of doing on your own, GW, I'm going to let CHS ask you any question it wants about your claims and you will have to answer them. Maybe then I'll know wtf is going on here.

classic quote, which if this turns out the way it seems like it will to me (ie. CHS handing GW their on a platter), then i want this to immortalised somewhere, possibly GW HQ so they never forget actions have consequences!

Revenent Reiko wrote:
classic quote, which if this turns out the way it seems like it will to me (ie. CHS handing GW their on a platter), then i want this to immortalised somewhere, possibly GW HQ so they never forget actions have consequences!

And GW will punish the hobby by officially removing rules for any model they don't make an explicit model for. Deny the 3rd party company a reason for the model to exist, the market dries up and the model doesn't sell. If there are no rules for tervigon, makes it hard to convince people to buy one.

This is what GW did with Blood Bowl and they will do the same here.

Seriously, if GW would get off it's lazy ass and make the models for the codex it unleashes at a timely fashion, then this would not happen with third party companies making stuff to help the gamers out by having other stuff made to cover the shortfalls. Either that, or license out production with someone checking QC....Oh wait, they seem to have already dropped the ball on that QC issue with "Fine"-cast already!

Spacemanvic wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:ahh dreams of a pre-reagan america where corperations didn't have the same rights as people, where congressmen wrote the laws instead of being handed them by lobbyist and told what to vote on based on who contributed to thier campaign... and when we had a working progressive tax code instead of a code with so many loopholes and breaks that if you can afford a good accountant you don't pay much if any and can see companies like GE get billions in tax refundsAFTER actually making huge profits /rant

Wow, I remember the Pre-Reagan Jimmney Cricket America with massive unemployment, going to gas line for 4+ hours with my parents (on top of that you could only get gas on odd/even days), military in disarray, massive crime in the cities (NYC was a cesspool and Newark NJ was still smoldering from the riots).

And GE is making massive profits off the Obama reign (they have people in the administration and are making a killing off the curly-que light bulbs that require hazmat for cleanup).

Back on topic: I hope CH eats GW fer breakfast. GW acts too much like a thugocracy- do what we tell you or you cant sell our product, withhold product, or bully small companies into closing that are selling product that may be used in GW games.

I'm not saying everything was peachy before that point, nor am i sayign that either party isn't corrupt as hell. which i think we can both reasonably agree on, and i wasn't around in the 70's heck my parents were not even old enough to vote yet at that point i just don't think the idea of trickle down is workign and the gaop between richest and middle class in the country has been getting wider since then which i think is not a good thing and currently politics in the us is pretty much an oligarchy where coporations have control of the major 2 parties instead of gov by the people. but i will say i don't believe the hype about how toxic some people claim mini florescent light bulbs are, nto that i use them much, i use led bulbs, they are more efficient and most importantly due to living in a very warm state (FL) and having an older house i couldn't get it below 80 with the ac running as hard as it could when it was over 100 outside. switched to florescents and ented the compressor on the refrigorator outside and BAM 78 like i wanted but the a/c never turned off, now that i use led it does turn off sometimes .

on topic though i agree i hope CH can win and with thier new representation i believe they can.

On the respocne earlier another person stating GW can't survive on making books and codexes... why not... dnd did great with that for quite some time. how about the many MANY rpg's that require even less codex/ handbooks costing even less than GW and yet they seem to be doing well enough. I am not saying i don't want GW to keep making minis just that it'd be nice not only for price purposes to have different minis, but for variety on a tabletop. my orks could have different looks than another person's orks, or space marines from one vendor would look similar to gw space marines but there would be actual modeling differences instead of just paint differences. I honestly think it'd be good for the hobby and the prices going down on minis I am positive WOULD bring in more players and thus help GW sell more books and if they droppped prices more models.

I'm not as good with legal issues so feel free to tell me I'm dumb on that ... or on anythign for that matter i'll never take anythign personal. but i do see every saturday i play i explain the game to alot of teenagers and sometimes let them play with my minis to try out the game and if the buyin was cheaper ALOT more people would be playing there. most parents come talk to me and the wife and thier kids want to play but the parents see the cost of the models and just say it isn't going to be possible due to the buy in cost which is understandable I'm sure when i have kids money will be even more tight than now. I'd say the psychological money point to most families if 20 bucks... if a box of infantry models be they boyz space marines or other were 20 bucks I am sure we'd see alot more players and if CH wins this and can show legal precidence that other companies can make thier own models i think we'd see competition force prices to that point... just my thought on the matter

G00fySmiley wrote:
On the responce earlier another person stating GW can't survive on making books and codexes... why not... dnd did great with that for quite some time. how about the many MANY rpg's that require even less codex/ handbooks costing even less than gGW and yet they seem to be doing well enough. I am nto saying i don't want GGW to keep making minis just that it'd be nice not only for price purposes to have different minis, btu for variety on a tabletop. my orks could have different looks than another person's orks, or space marines from one vendor woudl look similar to gw space marines btu there would be actual modeling differences instead of just paint differences. I honestly think it'd be good for the hobby and the prices going down on minis I am positive WOULD bring in more players and thus help GW sell more books and if they droppped prices more models.

I'm not as good with legal issues so feel free to tell me I'm dumb on that ... or on anythign for that matter i'll never take anythign personal. but i do see every saturday i play i explain the game to alot of teenagers and sometimes let them play with my minis to try out the game and if the buyin was cheaper ALOT more people would be playing there. most parents come talk to me and the wife and thier kids want to play but the parents see the cost of the models and just say it isn't going to be possible due to the buy in cost which is understandable I'm sure when i have kids money will be even more tight than now. I'd say the psychological money point to most families if 20 bucks... if a box of infantry models be they boyz space marines or other were 20 bucks I am sure we'd see alot more players and if CH wins this and can show legal precidence that other companies can make thier own models i think we'd see competition force prices to that point... just my thought on the matter

My thoughts exactly. GO GO CH

Competition force prices down and quality up

Something tells me that there is some news to give out. Something about there being many releases forthcoming from CH...

Spacemanvic wrote:Something tells me that there is some news to give out. Something about there being many releases forthcoming from CH...

And why is that? Dont be cryptic.

carmachu wrote:

Spacemanvic wrote:Something tells me that there is some news to give out. Something about there being many releases forthcoming from CH...

And why is that? Dont be cryptic.

I think he means with the release of two new kits that convert GW vehicles, are shown with the parts attached to the vehicles as well as using GW's trademarks to advertise the kits that he thinks 'something' has happened that has has cleared CH to release these kits without fear of impacting the case or hurting them.

carmachu wrote:

Spacemanvic wrote:Something tells me that there is some news to give out. Something about there being many releases forthcoming from CH...

And why is that? Dont be cryptic.

+1. I hope one of our legal eagles can chime in with some info.

Here's the link to PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records). Anyone can access the court documents for this case, although it's only free up to $10/quarter. So if you're trying to stay on the free side, watch your usage .

Chapterhouse is in an odd position at the moment. I suspect that the company wants to keep business as usual as much as possible, but at the same time it would not be prudent to do anything that would given more ammunition to the Plaintiff. Chapterhouse Studios has excellent representation from Winston and Strawn, so I think it's safe to assume that if Nick is listening to the advice of his counsel (which is a really, really good idea, especially since it is pro-bono), what Chapterhouse is doing in terms of releasing new products is pretty well okay with respect to the effect it could have on the ongoing litigation with Games Workshop.

There's nothing new going on in the case that I'm aware of. There's a status conference in a wee or so.

Biccat - thanks for posting a link to PACER. I wasn't aware that you could get $10 of free access, although as many docs as I download, 10 dollars wouldn't go very far.

Also you guys posses the vital skills necessary to translate those documents into understandable language.

Don't think it isn't appreciated. :thumbs

Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

weeble1000 wrote:Biccat - thanks for posting a link to PACER. I wasn't aware that you could get $10 of free access, although as many docs as I download, 10 dollars wouldn't go very far.

Neither did I, actually. It used to just be a fee for everything.

I might have to set up a personal account for the occasional peek at what's going on in this case.

biccat wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:Biccat - thanks for posting a link to PACER. I wasn't aware that you could get $10 of free access, although as many docs as I download, 10 dollars wouldn't go very far.

Neither did I, actually. It used to just be a fee for everything.

I might have to set up a personal account for the occasional peek at what's going on in this case.

I made an account but apparently they send you log-in information via the post office.

weeble1000 wrote:Chapterhouse Studios has excellent representation from Winston and Strawn, so I think it's safe to assume that if Nick is listening to the advice of his counsel (which is a really, really good idea, especially since it is pro-bono), what Chapterhouse is doing in terms of releasing new products is pretty well okay with respect to the effect it could have on the ongoing litigation with Games Workshop.

Question from someone who definitely isn't a legal eagle, weeble - wasn't there a whole "period of discovery" thing earlier in the case? My understanding at the time was that only items identified as an issue at that time would affect the case - did I miss something?

I agree that they should be taking the free advice at this point as to anything they release, but I didn't think new releases could damage the case.

Interesting point, Kroothawk - do they have a disclaimer on appropriate pages saying that Mr Moorcock has given them permission to use the Chaos star?

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

Even more fun fact: the 'Chaos star' as designed by Michael Moorcock is not the same as the Chaos star used by GW.

Even MORE fun fact?
The 'Chaos Star' that Moorcock claims to be the 'inventor' of was pretty much the exact same as a symbol from Alistair Crowley's tarot.

Before going off-topic though:
I can call up Michael Moore and ask for the rights to publish my own dvd of "Night of the Living Dead". If he says yes, does that make it legal for me to publish my own dvd of "Night of the Living Dead"?

(And yes: I'm aware that "Night of the Living Dead" was never copywritten correctly and is considered 'public domain' because of that. Was using whatever movie is currently on to make the point.)

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

Even more fun fact: the 'Chaos star' as designed by Michael Moorcock is not the same as the Chaos star used by GW.

Even MORE fun fact?
The 'Chaos Star' that Moorcock claims to be the 'inventor' of was pretty much the exact same as a symbol from Alistair Crowley's tarot.

Where are you getting this from?

From all of the descriptions I've read from Moorcock, and when you look at all the variations used by GW...

I think it is REALLY hard to say that GW got to their version of the 8 pointed star of Chaos without being HEAVILY influenced by Moorcock's version.

Also, "fun fact' (and variations thereof) is right up there with 'pro-tip' for phrases almost guaranteed to come across in a negative sense and as such, really not something to use in polite discussion

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

Even more fun fact: the 'Chaos star' as designed by Michael Moorcock is not the same as the Chaos star used by GW.

Even MORE fun fact?
The 'Chaos Star' that Moorcock claims to be the 'inventor' of was pretty much the exact same as a symbol from Alistair Crowley's tarot.

Where are you getting this from?

From all of the descriptions I've read from Moorcock, and when you look at all the variations used by GW...

I think it is REALLY hard to say that GW got to their version of the 8 pointed star of Chaos without being HEAVILY influenced by Moorcock's version.

Notice: I didn't say that Moorcock didn't 'inspire'(and all the negative connotations inherent within those quotations are intended) the Chaos Star used by GW. Moorcock's Chaos Star was described as being wavey lines for each branch of the arm of the star. GW's are, for the most part, straight. Previous iterations of the 8 pointed star were usually within a circle, and referenced being 'chaos contained'.

I'm not saying Moorcock didn't get ripped off, mind you. I'm saying that while he may have been, he also didn't create the concept entirely on his own. That symbol wasn't unheard of before Elric.

Also, "fun fact' (and variations thereof) is right up there with 'pro-tip' for phrases almost guaranteed to come across in a negative sense and as such, really not something to use in polite discussion

Duly noted?

I thought GW took the Moorcock star and put their ring on it.

From what I have found, Crowley never called it anything and just meant it as an example for "...energy scattering at high velocities...". So Crowley didn't create the named "Chaos Star", just an illustration on a card.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

But beside this, the point of the fact that things are looking good for CH. Even if they manage to thin out the case against them to something far lesser then what GW was aiming for, CH proved a point.

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

Even more fun fact: the 'Chaos star' as designed by Michael Moorcock is not the same as the Chaos star used by GW.

Even MORE fun fact?
The 'Chaos Star' that Moorcock claims to be the 'inventor' of was pretty much the exact same as a symbol from Alistair Crowley's tarot.

Where are you getting this from?

From all of the descriptions I've read from Moorcock, and when you look at all the variations used by GW...

I think it is REALLY hard to say that GW got to their version of the 8 pointed star of Chaos without being HEAVILY influenced by Moorcock's version.

Of course this goes to the heart of the problem.

An eight pointed star is an eight pointed star. The key issue is the association of the eight pointed star with the concept of the Chaos powers, which Moorcock certainly did invent, and which GW now lay claim to.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: On their website, Chapterhouse copied the complete GW legal disclaimer, including GW claiming the copyright on the Chaos star, even when Chapterhousse contacted Michael Moorcock (the "inventor" of the Chaos symbol) and got his permission to use it.

Even more fun fact: the 'Chaos star' as designed by Michael Moorcock is not the same as the Chaos star used by GW.

Even MORE fun fact?
The 'Chaos Star' that Moorcock claims to be the 'inventor' of was pretty much the exact same as a symbol from Alistair Crowley's tarot.

Where are you getting this from?

From all of the descriptions I've read from Moorcock, and when you look at all the variations used by GW...

I think it is REALLY hard to say that GW got to their version of the 8 pointed star of Chaos without being HEAVILY influenced by Moorcock's version.

Of course this goes to the heart of the problem.

An eight pointed star is an eight pointed star. The key issue is the association of the eight pointed star with the concept of the Chaos powers, which Moorcock certainly did invent, and which GW now lay claim to.

Exactly!

Perhaps reasoning like this helps CH in their endeavors against GW's lawsuit... I don't know.

I wish this whole situation could just be put to bed at this point, something, or someone has to give here.

Well, the judge has to force the GW management to accept that GW didn't invent the whole world. Not an easy task as the GW management lived in its tiny bubble for years, able to grow its omnipotency dreams without exposure to the real world. Now their demands are too unfair and greedy even for lawyers, that's why law firms stood in line to defend Chapterhouse pro bono.

Kroothawk wrote:Well, the judge has to force the GW management to accept that GW didn't invent the whole world. Not an easy task as the GW management lived in its tiny bubble for years, able to grow its omnipotency dreams without exposure to the real world. Now their demands are too unfair and greedy even for lawyers, that's why law firms stood in line to defend Chapterhouse pro bono.

lol?

One law firm "stood in line" to defend Chapterhouse pro bono. More likely than not, it's because they're a firm that specializes in IP law.
To say that "their demands are too unfair and greedy even for lawyers" is conjecture, at best, and wishful thinking at worst. It's quite likely that the firm involved has other cases on their plate that might be applicable with something similar to their argument here, or they're interested in being able to set precedent.

Kanluwen wrote:lol?

One law firm "stood in line" to defend Chapterhouse pro bono. More likely than not, it's because they're a firm that specializes in IP law.

Well, there were more than one, Kan, given that Paulson Games managed to get a second law firm of roughly the same size to defend them.

I also recall (though I'm not going quote-hunting) that one of the law-types on this thread mentioned that multiple firms wanted to be involved in this. It's anecdotal evidence, but more evidence than there has been for your view.