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Eldanar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
It shows that Chapterhouse got really really fething lucky in getting pro bono representation from a top IP firm. It's quite likely that if the pro bono hadn't shown up, this would have been done a lot faster.

Which doesn't say a whole lot about our judicial system. It's like saying you can only get a fair shake in court if you've got the money for top-notch representation.

Actually, I think it suggests the opposite. It shows that there are a lot of attoneys, even top notch white-shoe law firm attorneys, who take their constitutional duties seriously and are willing to represent a client for little or no fees upon occasion.

CHS got the legal equivalent of winning the lottery when it's attorneys signed on. Paulson as well. The weird thing is you usually don't see pro bono representation in commercial claims, so that is what makes this circumstance, at least to me, so interesting.

I like you, you're a glass half-full person. What I meant by my statement is that it's sad that you need big money to get quality representation (or nearly any for that matter). There wouldn't be a need for "winning the lottery" if everyone got a fair shake in court regardless of their personal wealth.

agnosto wrote:

Eldanar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
It shows that Chapterhouse got really really fething lucky in getting pro bono representation from a top IP firm. It's quite likely that if the pro bono hadn't shown up, this would have been done a lot faster.

Which doesn't say a whole lot about our judicial system. It's like saying you can only get a fair shake in court if you've got the money for top-notch representation.

Actually, I think it suggests the opposite. It shows that there are a lot of attoneys, even top notch white-shoe law firm attorneys, who take their constitutional duties seriously and are willing to represent a client for little or no fees upon occasion.

CHS got the legal equivalent of winning the lottery when it's attorneys signed on. Paulson as well. The weird thing is you usually don't see pro bono representation in commercial claims, so that is what makes this circumstance, at least to me, so interesting.

I like you, your a glass half-full person. What I meant by my statement is that it's sad that you need big money to get quality representation (or nearly any for that matter). There wouldn't be a need for "winning the lottery" if everyone got a fair shake in court regardless of their personal wealth.

ahh dreams of a pre-reagan america where corperations didn't have the same rights as people, where congressmen wrote the laws instead of being handed them by lobbyist and told what to vote on based on who contributed to thier campaign... and when we had a working progressive tax code instead of a code with so many loopholes and breaks that if you can afford a good accountant you don't pay much if any and can see companies like GE get billions in tax refundsAFTER actually making huge profits /rant

but yea on topic i hope chapter house eats GW for breakfast I'd love to have cheaper minis and other companies to be able to sell compatable minis and acessorieswith 40k stuff it'd be good for the hobby. people will always buy the books from GW but with the prices where they and and the pending price hike it is getting rediculous what we have to pay for a few quarters worth of resin

G00fySmiley wrote:ahh dreams of a pre-reagan america where corperations didn't have the same rights as people, where congressmen wrote the laws instead of being handed them by lobbyist and told what to vote on based on who contributed to thier campaign... and when we had a working progressive tax code instead of a code with so many loopholes and breaks that if you can afford a good accountant you don't pay much if any and can see companies like GE get billions in tax refundsAFTER actually making huge profits /rant

+1. Word.

I understood what you meant, agnosto, and think your concerns are justified. Attorneys, in many cases deservedly so, are pilloried every day for being money-grubbing ambulance chasers. However, the general public sees very little of the amount of pro bono work that is done by private attorneys; or in my current case, how much behind-the-scenes work is done by public attorneys.

Most pro bono work is in the areas of criminal law, probate, inheritance, housing, etc. It is basically set up to help indigent parties. The novel thing about this case is there are two seperate high-street law firms that have stepped forward in what would otherwise appear to be a fairly silly commercial claim. Add to this that there are some novel theories of law at play.

Eldanar wrote:I understood what you meant, agnosto, and think your concerns are justified. Attorneys, in many cases deservedly so, are pilloried every day for being money-grubbing ambulance chasers. However, the general public sees very little of the amount of pro bono work that is done by private attorneys; or in my current case, how much behind-the-scenes work is done by public attorneys.

Most pro bono work is in the areas of criminal law, probate, inheritance, housing, etc. It is basically set up to help indigent parties. The novel thing about this case is there are two seperate high-street law firms that have stepped forward in what would otherwise appear to be a fairly silly commercial claim. Add to this that there are some novel theories of law at play.

Yeah, I have worked for and known many in the lawyerly profession over the years; they're a group of hard-working individuals by and large which is the reason I didn't go to law school myself, I actually wanted a home life.

You're right, it is odd how two, fairly high profile, legal offices have taken up the collective cause vs. GW. I believe it was stated earlier in the thread, and rightly so, that it is probably because they want to be in on a precedent setting case. If that is the motive, I doubt we'll see a settlement.

I would like to see precedent set giving small firms the right to produce add on's.
Or even complete figures.

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't say that. But the top-notch defense representation usually knows how to drag it out and make it as painful as possible for the plaintiff.

Which isn't necessarily true in this instance as it was the poorly written claims from GW that made the judge tell them to take it back and redo their work and try to be specific. Who wins doesn't matter to me but you have to admit that GW's legal representatives got caught with their pants down on this one as they didn't expect a fight at all.

Which was kind of my point. This proves nothing for or against Chapterhouse other than the fact that they didn't back down and seemingly are the first US based company to be gone after by GW.

The head barrister at the international company where I work always used to say you should never threaten to sue until you are completely prepared to follow up on your threat.

GW clearly weren't.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't say that. But the top-notch defense representation usually knows how to drag it out and make it as painful as possible for the plaintiff.

Which isn't necessarily true in this instance as it was the poorly written claims from GW that made the judge tell them to take it back and redo their work and try to be specific. Who wins doesn't matter to me but you have to admit that GW's legal representatives got caught with their pants down on this one as they didn't expect a fight at all.

Which was kind of my point. This proves nothing for or against Chapterhouse other than the fact that they didn't back down and seemingly are the first US based company to be gone after by GW.

The head barrister at the international company where I work always used to say you should never threaten to sue until you are completely prepared to follow up on your threat.

GW clearly weren't.

Pretty much spot on KK - looks like GW got caught red-handed here...

Wait..
They got caught red handed with their pants down?

What WERE they doing!?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wait..
They got caught red handed with their pants down?

What WERE they doing!?

Ew.

Eldanar wrote:top notch white-shoe law firm attorneys

White-shoe? I've not come across this term before...

Saldiven wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wait..
They got caught red handed with their pants down?

What WERE they doing!?

Ew.

Is that what makes Finecast "special" and "unique"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tantras wrote:

Eldanar wrote:top notch white-shoe law firm attorneys

White-shoe? I've not come across this term before...

Its an American term, basically for those high paid lawyers who tend to come from higher tiered universities... working for the top firms and favored by the white shoe wearing stereotypical New England rich.-see Thurston Howell III of Giligan's Island...

I've lived in New England most of my life, and while I certainly am not rich, I don't think I've ever seen any White Shoes around these parts!

Oh, and we don't sound like Hollywood thinks we sound either...

Anyway, back OT - it seems as if GW seriously miscalculated here, and it seems as if the judge wants to give them a chance to clean up their filing, but if they're unable to do so, it seems as if he'll have little choice but to find against them, to some degree.

That will be oddly amusing... Everyone likes the underdog.

(Well, most everyone.)

Kanluwen wrote:There was no way to foresee CH getting pro bono representation from a top IP firm, nor to see CH actually not folding like the European companies that GW has gone after in the past have done.

Kan, your statement says absolutely nothing about the validity of GWs' case.

Ehhh. It shows nothing like that really.

It shows that Chapterhouse got really really fething lucky in getting pro bono representation from a top IP firm. It's quite likely that if the pro bono hadn't shown up, this would have been done a lot faster.

And what this says is that you agree that GW is acting like a bully in going for a firm/individual who was unable to stand up to them whether they had a case or not.

I'm not going to make any assumption on the outcome of the case, but you seem to be agreeing with the rest of us that GW is not 'playing nice' so to speak. And that you also feel that their, GWs', actions are completly justified on both an ethical and moral level. On top of which, using your second quote as reference, you seem to be condoning the use of harrassment, browbeating tactics and deep pocket litigation against a defendant who couldn't afford to defend themselves regardless or not of the validity of the case.

Andrew

agnosto wrote:

Eldanar wrote:I understood what you meant, agnosto, and think your concerns are justified. Attorneys, in many cases deservedly so, are pilloried every day for being money-grubbing ambulance chasers. However, the general public sees very little of the amount of pro bono work that is done by private attorneys; or in my current case, how much behind-the-scenes work is done by public attorneys.

Most pro bono work is in the areas of criminal law, probate, inheritance, housing, etc. It is basically set up to help indigent parties. The novel thing about this case is there are two seperate high-street law firms that have stepped forward in what would otherwise appear to be a fairly silly commercial claim. Add to this that there are some novel theories of law at play.

Yeah, I have worked for and known many in the lawyerly profession over the years; they're a group of hard-working individuals by and large which is the reason I didn't go to law school myself, I actually wanted a home life.

You're right, it is odd how two, fairly high profile, legal offices have taken up the collective cause vs. GW. I believe it was stated earlier in the thread, and rightly so, that it is probably because they want to be in on a precedent setting case. If that is the motive, I doubt we'll see a settlement.

Hey... maybe they're gamers

lol, that's what I was thinking...little do we know that both of these firms are led by people who grew up playing 40k, and ultimately left the hobby because of the focus on Space Marines and other business practices that have lead up to this point.

Ho ho! You mean is it a grudge match.

Nice to imagine but how likely could it be?

I would like to see precedent set giving small firms the right to produce add on's.
Or even complete figures.

That would destroy the IP; not to mention making it completely undefendable. How do you prevent a company from making a shoddy add on or figure and thus damaging the image of said IP?

If its going to be like that, it has to be fair. Big companies should be able to do the exact same to any IP of the small companies.

but yea on topic i hope chapter house eats GW for breakfast I'd love to have cheaper minis and other companies to be able to sell compatable minis and acessorieswith 40k stuff it'd be good for the hobby. people will always buy the books from GW but with the prices where they and and the pending price hike it is getting rediculous what we have to pay for a few quarters worth of resin

The game would simply die then. GW can't stay as a company selling just books.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I would like to see precedent set giving small firms the right to produce add on's.
Or even complete figures.

That would destroy the IP; not to mention making it completely undefendable. How do you prevent a company from making a shoddy add on or figure and thus damaging the image of said IP?

History tells us otherwise.

If GW loses this case, the sky will definitely not fall.

Mr Hyena wrote:That would destroy the IP; not to mention making it completely undefendable. How do you prevent a company from making a shoddy add on or figure and thus damaging the image of said IP?

GW do a good enough job of that themselves.

Alpharius wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

I would like to see precedent set giving small firms the right to produce add on's.
Or even complete figures.

That would destroy the IP; not to mention making it completely undefendable. How do you prevent a company from making a shoddy add on or figure and thus damaging the image of said IP?

History tells us otherwise.

If GW loses this case, the sky will definitely not fall.

How?

The car parts one is different, as you can't make a full fake car and sell it off as an original. Selling a full Figure would be the same.

These speculations are off topic.

Please "Cease & Desist".

Mr Hyena wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
History tells us otherwise.

If GW loses this case, the sky will definitely not fall.

How?

The car parts one is different, as you can't make a full fake car and sell it off as an original. Selling a full Figure would be the same.

...Look up "kit cars"... they are 100% legal kits that include everything to fully build a car, or sometimes just a body kit, that look like high end or collectable vehicles. CH isn't trying to pass of anything they've made as GWs.

At the same time lets be honest sooooooo many vehicles on the road look so much a like.

Just a curiosity, in this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372290.page


Apparantly GW printed pictures of reader submited tyranid army that had a CH conversion kit. Will that have any effect on the case, good or bad?

G00fySmiley wrote:ahh dreams of a pre-reagan america where corperations didn't have the same rights as people, where congressmen wrote the laws instead of being handed them by lobbyist and told what to vote on based on who contributed to thier campaign... and when we had a working progressive tax code instead of a code with so many loopholes and breaks that if you can afford a good accountant you don't pay much if any and can see companies like GE get billions in tax refundsAFTER actually making huge profits /rant

Wow, I remember the Pre-Reagan Jimmney Cricket America with massive unemployment, going to gas line for 4+ hours with my parents (on top of that you could only get gas on odd/even days), military in disarray, massive crime in the cities (NYC was a cesspool and Newark NJ was still smoldering from the riots).

And GE is making massive profits off the Obama reign (they have people in the administration and are making a killing off the curly-que light bulbs that require hazmat for cleanup).

Back on topic: I hope CH eats GW fer breakfast. GW acts too much like a thugocracy- do what we tell you or you cant sell our product, withhold product, or bully small companies into closing that are selling product that may be used in GW games.

Kilkrazy wrote:The head barrister at the international company where I work always used to say you should never threaten to sue until you are completely prepared to follow up on your threat.

GW clearly weren't.

Bingo. This is the crux of the issue. Games Workshop filed this suit with impunity and therefore made ridiculous, far-reaching claims that it knew it wouldn't be able to support. The big question this raises is why? Why not file a more modest, tightly focused suit if your only goal was to put a company out of business because you thought that the expense of a lawsuit would put it under? Was Games Workshop attempting to make a statement or send a message? Was Games Workshop going way over the top to ensure that Chapterhouse Studios would crumble under the weight of the accusations?

I'm not prepared to believe that both Games Workshop and its representation at Foley and Lardner were negligently incompetent. If this suit is not the result of incompetence or sheer hubris, the potential motivations for it are concerning. The Defendants' counter claims and the discovery process will hopefully shed some light on this. Perhaps this is another reason Games Workshop will want to settle this thing out quickly. One wonders if there's some unflattering interoffice communications about third party bits companies, or even Chapterhouse Studios specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:Ho ho! You mean is it a grudge match.

Nice to imagine but how likely could it be?

I don't think it is very likely. The GW v CHS lawsuit creates some interesting legal questions and it is clearly a case of IP bullying. Given this, it probably didn't take much more than pitching the idea to the right person at the right time. Lawyers for Creative Arts in Chicago, and other similar organizations around the country, are good at doing this. Plus, as we have seen in this thread and others, more than a few wargamers are themselves lawyers and have their own connections in the legal community. I've worked with two of the three law firms involved in the case, for example. I don't know any of the attorneys on the case, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Nick knew somebody that knew somebody that had a friend who had worked with someone in the same office, et. etc. On some level, it's all about who you know.

Personally, I find this very heartening. I would love to know that the wargaming community was largely responsible for the defense of Chapterhouse Studios. I don't think it is simply a matter of luck that Chapterhouse Studios was able to get hooked up with Winston and Strawn. It wasn't like Ms. Golinveaux was trolling forums, read the complaint, and then called up Nick, or at least that scenario borders on absurd. If luck was involved, it was lucky that the case got exposure of blogs and forums, and it was lucky that someone got hooked up with Nick who was in a position to make a few calls. As Eldanar has pointed out, lawyers do pro-bono work. There are volunteer organizations dedicated to helping artists find representation. And most importantly, there is a community in place that spreads awareness of issues like this. Is it lucky that you find a good deal when searching through Ebay? Sure, but it isn't blind luck. There's a system in place to facilitate that result.

carmachu wrote:Just a curiosity, in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372290.page
Apparantly GW printed pictures of reader submited tyranid army that had a CH conversion kit. Will that have any effect on the case, good or bad?

They didn't, the poster was mistaken. (I have the WD and the Chapterhouse conversion kit, so I should know )

weeble1000 wrote:Games Workshop filed this suit with impunity and therefore made ridiculous, far-reaching claims that it knew it wouldn't be able to support. The big question this raises is why?

One possibility is that a more modest claim would allow Chapterhouse to stop producing particular products. I mean, if you're actually infringing on a trademark, the best thing to do is just adhere to the cease and desist order. And if Chapterhouse could make all of this go away by dropping one small part of their miniatures line, then they would probably just do that- the way that Raging Heroes did recently.

Maybe GW didn't want to give them that option. GW has essentially made the claim that the existence of Chapterhouse Studio is infringing on their IP, and so the whole studio needs to be shut down. All of their products infringe- according to the GW lawyers.

Of course, that's a crazy hard claim to prove, but I can see why they might not take that into account if they're going after someone they think is too small to defend themselves in court.

GW: All of your IP are belong to us.

CH: What specifically?

Judge: Yeah, tell them, GW. You can't just claim for "everything".

Kilkrazy wrote:GW: All of your IP are belong to us.

CH: What specifically?

Judge: Yeah, tell them, GW. You can't just claim for "everything".

GW: *sigh* do you want the list alphabetically or chronologically?

Judge: ...Erm...... Sod it, both!

On Topic: DO we know whether this is actually what they did? or did GW specify certain IP infringements?