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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Bharring wrote:
Fun little headcannon aside:
What if Arhra's body was corrupted and possessed, but the demon could not corrupt the soulstone(s)?

And so when Arhra's body died, Arhra (the armor) went dormant until another Eldar donned it - just like any other Exarch/Phoenix Lord?

That new personality then merged with Arhra's soul, which itself was uncorrupted. Knowing that Arhra had fallen, he took the name Drazhar.

Way beyond speculative, it's firmly in "headcanon" territory. But it agrees with lore just enough to avoid the "crackpot" label, I think.

Brilliant. It'd be awesome if that was the case

-

   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone






Mississippi

Drazhar never speaks, so we actually do not know what his name is. It could be Arhra for all we know.

I was hoping that the Gav thorpe books would eventually explore this story more, but he got to writing other things. If they are advancing the story, mayb some of these questions can be answered and explored. New GW has been pretty good about answer questions and just opening the door to others. I expect Yvraine to feature in this story as well by the end of it. Maybe she restores Drahzar to his full memories or something, and brings Arhra back.

The models look ace, and I look forward to seeing the rules.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Galef wrote:
And that's the beauty of the Arhra story. It's a mystery and it has different, sometimes conflicting stories. The "truth" can be interpreted a number of ways.

I personally like the idea of him being Drazhar, although I also like the idea that he might not be the original Arhra. As-in the original died and Drazhar is a later "incarnation" similar to how a Phoenix Lord can be reborn if an new meat-suit dons the armour.
The difference to me, it that Arhra may not have used a Spirit Stone. Drazhar does not seem to sport one at least (intact anyway, since Incubi like to wear the broken stones of Aspects they've slain)
So there could be something else tying the "essence" of Arhra to Drazhars Armour. This could even make him a slightly different entity rather than a true "cloning" that seems to happen with PLs

-

It could just be that the spirit stone is inside the armour.

Personally I like the idea that Arhra's spirit is tied to the armour itself and it just absorbs every Eldar who wears it but in a more predatory way than other Phoenix Lords. For example if we say that Asurmen merges with another soul peacefully then Arhra's is just devouring them like a demon.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





pm713 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
And that's the beauty of the Arhra story. It's a mystery and it has different, sometimes conflicting stories. The "truth" can be interpreted a number of ways.

I personally like the idea of him being Drazhar, although I also like the idea that he might not be the original Arhra. As-in the original died and Drazhar is a later "incarnation" similar to how a Phoenix Lord can be reborn if an new meat-suit dons the armour.
The difference to me, it that Arhra may not have used a Spirit Stone. Drazhar does not seem to sport one at least (intact anyway, since Incubi like to wear the broken stones of Aspects they've slain)
So there could be something else tying the "essence" of Arhra to Drazhars Armour. This could even make him a slightly different entity rather than a true "cloning" that seems to happen with PLs

-

It could just be that the spirit stone is inside the armour.

Personally I like the idea that Arhra's spirit is tied to the armour itself and it just absorbs every Eldar who wears it but in a more predatory way than other Phoenix Lords. For example if we say that Asurmen merges with another soul peacefully then Arhra's is just devouring them like a demon.

In the same vein, I like imagining it as Asurmen (and those who merge with him) view it as merging, whereas Arhra (and his victims) view it as devouring. But it is entirely the same thing. I find that even darker.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Prodigalson wrote:
Drazhar never speaks, so we actually do not know what his name is. It could be Arhra for all we know.

I was hoping that the Gav thorpe books would eventually explore this story more, but he got to writing other things. If they are advancing the story, mayb some of these questions can be answered and explored. New GW has been pretty good about answer questions and just opening the door to others. I expect Yvraine to feature in this story as well by the end of it. Maybe she restores Drahzar to his full memories or something, and brings Arhra back.

The models look ace, and I look forward to seeing the rules.

I think it's a good thing that Thorpe didn't expand on that. He's been great on expanding the setting, what life inside the Craftworlds or Cosrair fleets are like and what the Paths themselves are like, but he's proven pretty aweful at exploring characters and events.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Bharring wrote:
In the same vein, I like imagining it as Asurmen (and those who merge with him) view it as merging, whereas Arhra (and his victims) view it as devouring. But it is entirely the same thing. I find that even darker.
Indeed that is darker. Very 'there is no light or dark side of the force, just the user that determines it'

-

   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The models are only aligned with this, the first book, apparently.

There may be other model releases later down the line, but not now.


If this is the designated "All Eldar" book, then I doubt we'd see more eldar stuff after.

Rats. I was really hoping we'd be seeing the first new Harlequin models since their initial release in 7th.

You know, since we've never had a named character, except for that one time we got a named character but he didn't have a model outside the regular Death Jester model...and he just added one rule to the death jester rules....and he didn't make the transition from 7th to 8th...and he got shot in the face by a deathwatch in the very same booklet he was introduced.

Harlequins didn't even get Grukk Facerippad. At least Grukk Facerippa had a model, we got sub-Grukk'd.


Yea I got super excited when I saw the second model reveal was dark eldar incubi, because I assumed the third reveal would naturally be something for Harlequins finally. Really disappointed that it's pretty much confirmed that this is all we are getting for the aeldari model releases with this book. I guess the only thing Harlequin fans could hope for is to not be included at all in this campaign book and be featured in a upcoming one with some other faction(s) and a potential model release. This also seems kinda unlikely since harlequins were briefly mentioned in the phoenix rising debut. We can probably expect some token formation/stratagem/psychic power in this campaign book and that's it.
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 18:03:26


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?


Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.

But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.

HOpefully new rules change that.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






BrianDavion wrote:
 ekwatts wrote:
Ooh, a thread of people complaining about Marines, haven't had one of those for a while.


we have them everytime Marines get a release.


All the time then?
and it's always the same, whining that marines get something, followed by passive agressive comments that suggest GW is misusing their design time, followed by people outright claiming that Marines are somehow stealing releases from other factions.

Marines releases don't 'steal' anything from anyone. But they stop releases for other factions.

Imagine that 'development time' is represented with apples.

If I have a limited amount, let's say 10 apples, and I give 6 to Marines/Imperium, 3 to chaos and 1 to xenos factions of various flavours, does this seem like an equal division of apples?

No. No it isn't. Poor xenos have to split a raw apple while imperium (Marines) get a three course apple surprise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?


Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.

But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.

HOpefully new rules change that.


I'd say they're the opposite of a suicide missile. They're more of a slightly Hardy (when in melee) wet noodle. They lack damage but can sustain a little with stratagem support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 18:51:04


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?

I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






the_scotsman wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?


Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.

But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.

HOpefully new rules change that.


Yeah hopefully new rules help. Jain Zar seems pretty swish though so I’m keen to see her updated model as well.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

pm713 wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?

I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.


That's how they were in 4th ed. Banshees were super effective against necrons.
WBB (what RP used to be called) didn't work against melee weapons that ignored armor and due to their low initiative stat necrons were prone to getting swept and wiped out completely.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Tiberius501 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?


Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.

But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.

HOpefully new rules change that.


Yeah hopefully new rules help. Jain Zar seems pretty swish though so I’m keen to see her updated model as well.

She's mildley OK in combat against characters, the -1 to hit and removing one of your opponents weapons makign pretty survivable in that sense, but the lack of an invuln and characters like Abaddon having 2 combat weapons means she can can be killed quite easily. Her biggest problem is lack of attacks though, when a Space Marine Captain can have up to 8 or 9 attacks why does a gladiator with 10 000+ years or experience only have 4?
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone






Mississippi

I am working on a Ynnari army, and they are useful in that build. Always getting +1 to hit, and combining that with re-roll to wound makes them pretty good. I also run wytches with them and wytches with them. The banshees role in and stop the overwatch, then the wytches prevent them from falling back. I am not saying it is top tier, especially with the advent of marine massive small arms fire, but there was a place for them.

Same goes for Incubi. They are terrible in a dark eldar book, but when I use them with my Ynnari, they are great and wonderful. 30 attacks that hit on a 2+ with re-roll 1s (because in a Ynnari army, the Archon gives them re-roll 1 to hit) and then re-roll wound with Unbind Souls. The Klavex also does 3 damage on wound rolls of a 6 and has 5 attacks with the demi-klavie. Again, in a dark eldar army... trash... in a ynnari army... they are ok. I will be fun to see how both units work with updates.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?

I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.


Part of the issue is that powerswords were Strength 5 and had good AP back in RT/2ed, so their low base str didn’t matter. Since the rules for power weapons have changed they haven’t been as good at their role.

Also, they used to have laspistols.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Either/Or wrote:

Part of the issue is that powerswords were Strength 5 and had good AP back in RT/2ed, so their low base str didn’t matter. Since the rules for power weapons have changed they haven’t been as good at their role.

Yep. But there really isn't a reason why Eldar power swords or just Banshee swords need to be the same than the imperial power swords. They could easily give them better rules. A strength bonus or shred for example.

   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





I mean banshee's profile is weaker than Death Cultist aren't they? They definitely should have a better profile, not a worse one, and I say this as someone who has some lovely count-as DCA!!!

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I mean banshee's profile is weaker than Death Cultist aren't they? They definitely should have a better profile, not a worse one, and I say this as someone who has some lovely count-as DCA!!!


Eh. DCA seem a little overtuned in the beta codex for 17 point models. Banshees don't need to be rocking 4 attacks each at strength 4, especially with inflicting no overwatch and hit penalties, and a big charge bonus.

Besides the N&R seems a bad place for that kind of comparison, especially with a non-final version of the DCA rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 01:43:57


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

This is 8th.

If you aren't Ork Boyzs level of number of attacks per points you are worthless as a meele unit.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






I feel like Banshees might be worth considering if they all had Executioner blades as a weapon option.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Give banshees strength 4 and they'd be worth their points I reckon.

They aren't bad units until they go to hit something and are trying to wound on 5s.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





 Galas wrote:
This is 8th.

If you aren't Ork Boyzs level of number of attacks per points you are worthless as a meele unit.


This is more or less the problem. Special rules and slightly better armour/weapons simply do not compensate for cost+number of attacks. GW basically screwed this element up in the game as a whole and have yet to fix it (and I don't think they will). A 11-12 point Banshee with two strength 3 attacks...is simply worse than a 7 point model with 3-7 attacks. Armour and weapons do not matter enough to balance out that equation.

Banshees speed, denial of overwatch etc...still doesn't make up for spending 107 points on eight Toughness 3 models with 4+ armour who die to a stiff breeze. The fundamental focus of extra attacks, extra re-rolls, extra fighting or shooting phases, etc. is wildly overdone in 40K at the moment, turning the game into mass dice over any form of quality/elite unit potential.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





attack volume period seems to be an issue in 8th.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.

This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.

Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...

Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.

For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.

the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.

The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.











   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Hellebore wrote:
The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.

This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.

Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...

Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.

For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.

the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.

The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.





Indeed, it also leads to a sales downward spiral that leads to even less kits.
E.g. SoB. Until recently.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






Maybe I’m going bonkers, but I could’ve sworn one of the new art works GW posted, along with that sweet Howling Banshees vs Incubi one, was a cool Warlock art work. Someone posted them here didn’t they? I was flicking back but can’t find it.
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

https://warhammerart.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Eldari-Warlock-Print-650x650.jpg

And yeah rogue trader era models kinda need update huh.
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Tiberius501 wrote:
Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.


Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.

It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Hellebore wrote:
The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.

This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.

Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...

Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.

For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.

the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.

The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.


That's ridiculous. Why, surely we have not exhausted the design space for bolter wielding space marine infantry! We've only got

Tactical marines, Intercessors with bolt rifles/bolt carbines/stalker boltguns, Reivers with Carbines, Incursors, Infiltrators, Scouts with boltguns, Crusader squads, Grey Hunters, Grey Knight Strike Squads, Deathwatch Veterans, Sternguard, Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard. It must be a piece of cake to keep those distinct, and I'm sure never ever leads to any kind of arms race where one style of boltgun wielding infantry (say, Scouts with Boltguns) is just straight up the best, despite GW trying to cram a bunch of new kits into the already overstuffed boltgun hole, leading to some crazy situation like intercessors that pump out 6 shots with ap-1 apiece or full power armored boltgun dudes that just Infiltrate straight onto the battlefield and block deep strike.


"Ah, come on sir, eet eez just a wafer thin new tactical squad sprue!"

"No, I'm stuffed GW, I've already got 130 models in power armor with boltguns!"

"Oh ho ho, but you zee, we have packaged zis one in zee new boxed set with all zees ozzer fancy new units, dedicating not one, but two sprue molds to making zis thing zat is essentially ze same as what you have! Also, ze new rules, zey are indispensible! Ze Primaris Introverts are no mere tactical squad, no no! Zey deep strike onto ze battlefield BEFORE ZE DEPLOYMENT STARTS using special fidget spinner attachments on their boltguns, and zey get to fire their boltguns six times during ze enemy deployment phase! And each kit box comes with a free loot crate for ze Fortnite!"









This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 12:00:07


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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