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Made in us
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The fact that we're arguing whether a space marine actually died-died or died-lived or live-died just goes to show you how tiresome the space marine and primaris lore is.

Like, at least in AoS, when Nagash gets banished by Teclis, you know he's not dead-dead because he's a god and has lots of magical whats-its to resurrect himself. When daemons die, they get thrown back into the warp and have to do some boogey-man stuff to come back.

The issue I have with 40k is that there's a lot of 'scienc-y' stuff that tries to take itself seriously, but when you can have your throat slit by a greater daemon of slaanesh and then undergo grueling surgery and come out -better- than you were before? That's some BS.
   
Made in us
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drbored wrote:
The fact that we're arguing whether a space marine actually died-died or died-lived or live-died just goes to show you how tiresome the space marine and primaris lore is.

Like, at least in AoS, when Nagash gets banished by Teclis, you know he's not dead-dead because he's a god and has lots of magical whats-its to resurrect himself. When daemons die, they get thrown back into the warp and have to do some boogey-man stuff to come back.

The issue I have with 40k is that there's a lot of 'scienc-y' stuff that tries to take itself seriously, but when you can have your throat slit by a greater daemon of slaanesh and then undergo grueling surgery and come out -better- than you were before? That's some BS.
^truth. It's comic-book crap.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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"Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
   
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dhallnet wrote:
"Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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What really gets me is how no one is picking up on the greatest flaw of that whole gakshow:

Ghaz is Old Man Yarrick's to kill. YARRICK. Not some barely civilized wolf-man in cower armor.
   
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 waefre_1 wrote:
What really gets me is how no one is picking up on the greatest flaw of that whole gakshow:

Ghaz is Old Man Yarrick's to kill. YARRICK. Not some barely civilized wolf-man in cower armor.
Aye, what should have really happened was Ragnar gets clobbered and Yarrick comes in to bust out some IG whuppass, routing the Orks and forcing Ghaz to withdraw and come back some other day.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
"Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of

If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 01:28:25


 
   
Made in us
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dhallnet wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
"Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of

If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.
Good thing it's not a "not believable sciencey stuff" argument then. It's a "what 3rd grader wrote that dumb **** story?" kind of thing.

They just wanted and excuse to get Ragnar to go Rubicon. . . so 3rd grader and a sales department.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fr
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 Insectum7 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
"Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of

If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.
Good thing it's not a "not believable sciencey stuff" argument then. It's a "what 3rd grader wrote that dumb **** story?" kind of thing.

They just wanted and excuse to get Ragnar to go Rubicon. . . so 3rd grader and a sales department.

You're point might be but I'm not sure in the case of DrBored.
But yeah, they wrote a generic "and then they die to become stronger" dumb stuff, like when WFB died and birthed gods But this one can fly it seem.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 01:34:43


 
   
Made in ca
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Canada

Somebody needs to neck-shoot this thread.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Somebody needs to neck-shoot this thread.
Well that's a nice image.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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NE Ohio, USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=is+ragnar+blackmane+alive

"Though life had all but left his body in the battle's aftermath, Ragnar was rescued and borne across the Rubicon Primaris in order to revive him."


So he was just alive enough to be Primarisized, instead of dead enough to become our newest dreadnought.

Honestly I'd have preferred him as a dreadnought as then he'd still be able to fit in my drop pod based SW force.
   
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ccs wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=is+ragnar+blackmane+alive

"Though life had all but left his body in the battle's aftermath, Ragnar was rescued and borne across the Rubicon Primaris in order to revive him."


So he was just alive enough to be Primarisized, instead of dead enough to become our newest dreadnought.

Honestly I'd have preferred him as a dreadnought as then he'd still be able to fit in my drop pod based SW force.
I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".

Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
   
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 Castozor wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".

Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
If characters are billed as important . . . but you can't kill any of them. . . then don't have them meet in battle in a fight to the death. Ragnars forces could have competed with Ghazgulls forces and narrative could have happened. Mutual fight-to-the-death-but-oh-they-both-didn't-die is silly AF.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/10 17:03:44


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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GW is too chicken to kill Ragnar, Mephiston, etc....
It would shake things up and prob piss nerds off.

I for one wouldn't mind if He'stan was killed and unable to be primarafied/died crossing. Would give room to expand the story of the Artefacts of Vulcan search and show how the stakes are real.

Same could go for other chapters named characters.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".

Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
If characters are billed as important . . . but you can't kill any of them. . . then don't have them meet in battle in a fight to the death. Ragnars forces could have competed with Ghazgulls forces and narrative could have happened. Mutual fight-to-the-death-but-oh-they-both-didn't-die is silly AF.

I agree with you, but clearly GW does not. Also in Ragnar's and Ghaz particular case I guess they needed an in-lore excuse as to why one is suddenly a primaris now and the other is twice as tall and also why they are both in a box set. Why exactly they bothered when half the other times they don't is anyone's guess.
   
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It's especially odd with Ghaz, since Orks canonically get bigger and stronger the more they fight and win. He didn't need to have his head chopped off. GW were probably too scared of having one non-Marine character just outright win a fight even though I'm sure Space Wolf fans would have probably been totally fine with Ghaz beating Ragnar straight up. It's fething Ghaz. Everybody knows and loves him and understands what a capital B Beast he is.

Compare it to Broken Realms Teclis where Nagash and Arkhan just got absolutely BTFO'd and people (now that they've read the book) are actually mostly fine with it.

I still believe that GW are terrified to do certain things in 40k because historically 40k grognards have been incredibly unpleasant over certain moves and stories. I think most Space Marine players would be fine with their guys taking an actual L every now and then, especially vs a worthy threat. But GW doesn't feel confident in doing it.
   
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AoS is a much better setting IMO. They've done some really awesome things with it both in terms of models and story which are the benefits of a clean slate I guess. 40k has too much stuff that is "set in stone" as it were and they aren't going to risk resetting their main cash flow even if it might improve the background. I like the Primaris but the campaign books have been pretty bad overall for story. Vigilus was pretty cool and I enjoyed it right up until the part where the Eldar sacrificed a very rare and important ship to damage the Vengeful Spirit a bit so Abaddon wouldn't mulch Calgar.
   
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 Gert wrote:
AoS is a much better setting IMO. They've done some really awesome things with it both in terms of models and story which are the benefits of a clean slate I guess. 40k has too much stuff that is "set in stone" as it were and they aren't going to risk resetting their main cash flow even if it might improve the background. I like the Primaris but the campaign books have been pretty bad overall for story. Vigilus was pretty cool and I enjoyed it right up until the part where the Eldar sacrificed a very rare and important ship to damage the Vengeful Spirit a bit so Abaddon wouldn't mulch Calgar.


I find myself actually being driven towards AoS (and other hobbies besides) by all of the Space Marine bs.

If it weren't for Sisters of Battle, I'd probably have dropped out of 40k entirely by now.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
What really gets me is how no one is picking up on the greatest flaw of that whole gakshow:

Ghaz is Old Man Yarrick's to kill. YARRICK. Not some barely civilized wolf-man in cower armor.
Aye, what should have really happened was Ragnar gets clobbered and Yarrick comes in to bust out some IG whuppass, routing the Orks and forcing Ghaz to withdraw and come back some other day.


But then you would have had a regular human saving a space marine, and you can't have that! It would detract from their protagonism.
   
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I haven't frequented these forums in some time & am currently not in the 40k scene but this thread has been refreshing. I've argued for years about the direction 40k is heading, largely to deaf ears. Its great to see so many finally coming around. The discussion revolving around Ghazzy & Ragnar is a perfect example. At no point can SM ever lose & they will continue to receive endless support & new models at the expense of the entire setting. What a wonder it would have been for a xenos player to actually have their flag bearer have a brief victory. Alas no one can have nice things except SM players. Hell, most IG regiments haven't seen new infantry models in 20+ years & no a handful of special characters redone does not make up for decades without support. I'll not carry on any further as GW doesn't care & hasn't since around 3rd edition. To all you non space marine players, carry on the torch & maybe someday your prayers will be heard.
   
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 Commissar Benny wrote:
I haven't frequented these forums in some time & am currently not in the 40k scene but this thread has been refreshing. I've argued for years about the direction 40k is heading, largely to deaf ears. Its great to see so many finally coming around. The discussion revolving around Ghazzy & Ragnar is a perfect example. At no point can SM ever lose & they will continue to receive endless support & new models at the expense of the entire setting. What a wonder it would have been for a xenos player to actually have their flag bearer have a brief victory. Alas no one can have nice things except SM players. Hell, most IG regiments haven't seen new infantry models in 20+ years & no a handful of special characters redone does not make up for decades without support. I'll not carry on any further as GW doesn't care & hasn't since around 3rd edition. To all you non space marine players, carry on the torch & maybe someday your prayers will be heard.


Eh...i've had the rules leaks for it for a while, but I just got my Drukhari codex today as my FLGS was moving and just opened up shop, and reading through the lore section was just...depressing. There's a photograph of the one single new miniature that got released with the book on seemingly every single page showing models, but otherwise it's the exact same studio models they've had in the images since fifth edition. All the fluff is about the many many many characters who no longer exist in the game...like, here's the section on the Poisoned Tongue, lady malys sounds cool, oh neat, she survived the faked death of the other dude who runs the whole faction who also doesn't have a model or rules. Oh sweet an archon who rose to prominance from being a Reaver jetbike arena champion and now has this whole flying kabal....oh wow another archon who's like a renegade, and rolls with the Hellions instead of the rest of the nobles, and he's like a skyboard pirate...man, sure am glad that every archon is just a dude on foot with a sword and a pistol and that's it, that's all of them ever, you wanna represent the cunning lady malys, the renegade baron sathonyx, the living muse adsrubael vect, or that cool reaver dude that's your one statline, what kind of sword and pistol do you want?

Reading the fluff developments its like the drukhari are moving at an absolute molasses pace. The storyline has moved forward four hundred frickin' years, and what have we resolved since the last codex?

Well, let's see, there's Lelith whose been following Yvraine around. She's...still doing that I guess, there's a little blurb that's like 'is she doing it to try and be immortal? does she just want to...fight...the god...of death? Is there...something else? Tune in next edition to maybe find out?' All the other named characters, they still exist. Well, not in the GAME, but like, you know. The gangs all here. And Urien Rakarth wanted to get primaris space marines in the last codex....because he wants a collection. He wants one primaris space marine from every chapter, just, to have. It's made explicitly clear that he just likes seeing all the degradation and mutation that's happened because he likes to chuckle at the emperors shoddy handiwork. Didn't want them for anything in particular, just kind of to put them on a shelf or use them as furniture or something.

That's it! That's the development we have for your faction. I didn't read the charadon book, because I am not supporting any GW cashgrab book content as a rule, but I doubt it has anything else of interest.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Was there at all a new model for Drukhari beyond a bad Lelith remake of an exsisting?

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 BlackoCatto wrote:
Was there at all a new model for Drukhari beyond a bad Lelith remake of an exsisting?


haha, nope, not a one. But don't worry, we've got that awfully painted studio job of the new lelith on every other page. Plus, an added section in her lore entry about how she's the undisputed master of every single one of the interesting and esoteric wych arena weapons whoopsiedoodles we forgot to let her take any of those sorryyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Just find a different game.
When you get a one track mind, you shut yourself off to other gaming experiences.

In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.


Yes, sadly the groups for them,.... not so much often.

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the_scotsman wrote:


That's it! That's the development we have for your faction. I didn't read the charadon book, because I am not supporting any GW cashgrab book content as a rule, but I doubt it has anything else of interest.


Naw- there's way more than that in the dex. We now know 12 territory types that one can encounter in Commorragh and how each benefits the Lord who controls it, and we have a rather elegant set of rules for actually fighting through the conflict riven power struggles of Commorragh, rather than just a few pages of fluff about it. We have our Master HQ's and favoured retinues back, and the new realspace rules do a far better job of bringing the fluff to the table than the 8th rules do, and prior to 8th, the dexes were written in such a way that none of the fluff had any impact on the way the army fights- like "Assassination attempts are everywhere; these people advance in society by killing and extorting each other for personal gain... but if you want to build an army of them, just follow the exact same rules as any other faction that is assembling an army, because this system of assassination and distrust has no impact at all on who the army fights." And as I mentioned, 8th DIDN'T get it right, but it was the first edition to try. Ninth perfected what the started in 8th- all of the petty politics and internal strife now actually impact the mechanics in a way they never have.

It is true that the background pages in new dexes are far more limited, and no, I'm not particularly happy about that; it's also true that we didn't get any models beyond Lelith, and I'm not happy about that either.

I am hopeful that there will be an Aeldari renaissance later this edition. We all know how much the CWE need a range refresh, and we all know that Ynarri, like it or not, are essentially linked to any developments for the Eldar. Releasing boxed sets and campaign supports would be essential to promote a release of that magnitude, and I'm hoping that when it comes, it will include not just CWE, but a few additional releases for other Eldar. I have no evidence- this is pure speculation and wishful thinking, but it doesn't seem like it's impossible, given the types of things we've seen for Sisters and the things we are starting to see for Orks.

You've probably seen the leaks of the Cult of Strife content from the Book of Rust; it isn't bad, but I think GW specifically designed the content in Charadon to be content that is "Nice to Have" as opposed to "Need to Have," and further, I believe they did that because of the community complaints about PA, whose updates to many armies were essential.

Some are going to like campaign resources, some aren't. I posted in another thread a few days ago to provide a breakdown of how all the Charadon resources can be used together, and I will likely update it once I see the Chardon content from this month's Dwarf. I'm trying to direct link the post- never done that before so let's see if this works:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/797095.page#11097715

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 15:14:40


 
   
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I love the rules content in the codex, I also really like the art style shift personally, I know it's not for everyone but I absolutely adore how alien the dark eldar are shown to look as opposed to older artwork where they were basically just fantasy dark elves.

My only complaint about the art is that I wish I got to see more about how these weird, alien dark eldar look in comparison to other 40k races or in the context of the 40k setting. the new codex massively shifted away from showing basically just concept art of the models (which is a very good thing) but they shifted to showing portraits, or just pictures of a single person rather than showing them in the context of a world.

Overall I'd say:

Rules: A (A+ would be if they applied this standard of rules writing to the old 'wide sprawling wargame with tons of options' vibe that is sadly seeming to be dying off)
Crusade content: B+ (I like it conceptually I just wish there was more of it)
Art: B (massive improvement from the early 8th cartoony/showing only the models exactly as they are posed in the new sculpts and of the gakky gakky paper doll things they used to use to show color schemes, but still not enough shots of the drukhari actually in the world of the game)
Fluff: F.

They discontinued every Drukhari character model: THAT is their opportunity to do really crazy stuff with their fluff! They're not shackled to models anymore - fething kill vect, introduce a huge power struggle to the dark eldar as everyone vies to become the new top dog, then use that as a springboard to release new named character models and the new crusade content - could YOUR archon be the new supreme leader of the dark city? But nope, all the fluff is still about this dumb marty stu whos the best at everything and ISNT EVEN IN THE FREAKING GAME still.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Just find a different game.
When you get a one track mind, you shut yourself off to other gaming experiences.

In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.


Yes, sadly the groups for them,.... not so much often.


It is hard as Hell to get people in my area to play something not 40k.

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