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We get no ranged weapons higher than str 10 and precious few of them as MM are only str 9 which for the supposed premier tank killers is just dumb.

You cant even put dominions in a Immolator anymore. Only units you can put in them is Sacrosants or Retributers as basic Celestians are just outright gone...

Dominions locked to 10 models and Retributers locked to 5.

Oh and we're rocking guard level leadership now.

I kinda want to just cry.

I don't think Sister will be as straightforward as other armies. You're going to need to be ok with losing models and units to pick up MD and leverage the +1/+1. There does appear to be at least some tools to help.

- Litanies of Faith does a good job at getting you rerolled MD
- Vahl gives full rerolls to hit and wound to Paragons
- Retributors replace MD twice
- Battle Sisters easily generate MD
- Aestred gives DW melee or you can put Agatha in with Retributors and push the MD from 4s to 5s for the wound roll ( but I think would be better served in a melee unit )
- Dialogus can turn any die for Retributors into a 6
- Retributors hopping out of an Immolator get full wound rerolls

I will just copy and paste what i've already said in the news and discussion thread:

Wtf is this:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/riFjIh9OeKg6AbLZ.pdf

That's not a glass canon army but a fething glass army who needs to jump through several hoops for just a bit of canon, and they were anyways already slower than Eldar(actual glass canon army that also pretty much has MD) but now most of the few units with some speed are just bad on top, either Sisters just got turned into a Horde army and became dirt cheap, or Matt Ward must be back for real this time.

Not sure what else to say about this gak.

None of those options really scale well into large games.

To get the most out of MD you would need to field MSU. But you cant really do that as all the cheap units you would want to sacrifice are locked to 10 models.

So now we have an army where to actually use our best units they have to be damaged but they are so fragile they are likely to just be destroyed outright.

Sisters have always been an elite alpha strike army but now half our stuff only works if our units are damaged or destroyed. We literally have to be losing for our army to work which is just stupid.

Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

Id just settle for our anti-tank squad being able to wound the average tank on better than a 5+

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Space Marines get to do that, so why not the girls?

 Mythantor wrote:
Oh and we're rocking guard level leadership now.

Sisters at the start of 3e were BS 3 and their heaviest tank was a rhino with strength 6 heavy flamer instead of a stormbolter.

Ruleset resets can be cruel, nothing you can do except see how it pans out. Glass half full if you can win with an army when it is crap you'll improve your play for when it isn't.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You know the term "mansplaining"? This is Daedsplaining. You're not necessarily wrong, you usually have some justification for your posts, but you don't play sisters and it doesn't really help to point out gak to people who know the army better than you. Normally I find ERJAK's causticity to be inappropriate, but I look forward to them laying into this list of cope.

thats not mansplaining at all lol, he's just pointing out positives, sorry if its not negative enough for your liking i guess

Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did, with the added benefit being that they actually play Sisters and have a better sense of how these things might play out on the table. I can tell you that even with reduced lethality, it's not exactly tough to wipe sisters, and so relying on the +1/+1 thing is just... not going to work out that well in practice?

And not sure why you're accusing me of being incessantly negative; I haven't been commenting that much on these rules.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You know the term "mansplaining"? This is Daedsplaining. You're not necessarily wrong, you usually have some justification for your posts, but you don't play sisters and it doesn't really help to point out gak to people who know the army better than you. Normally I find ERJAK's causticity to be inappropriate, but I look forward to them laying into this list of cope.

thats not mansplaining at all lol, he's just pointing out positives, sorry if its not negative enough for your liking i guess

Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did, with the added benefit being that they actually play Sisters and have a better sense of how these things might play out on the table. I can tell you that even with reduced lethality, it's not exactly tough to wipe sisters, and so relying on the +1/+1 thing is just... not going to work out that well in practice?

And not sure why you're accusing me of being incessantly negative; I haven't been commenting that much on these rules.

Yeh relying on a t3 unit that is locked at 5 models to survive a round of shooting. To get the +1 to wound which is the useful part a Retributer has to be reduced to 2 models which means you have already lost half your firepower. Because of the way hit modifiers work now they can never hit on better than a 3+ as hit modifiers dont stack and they can get +1 by standing still.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did, with the added benefit being that they actually play Sisters and have a better sense of how these things might play out on the table. I can tell you that even with reduced lethality, it's not exactly tough to wipe sisters, and so relying on the +1/+1 thing is just... not going to work out that well in practice?

And not sure why you're accusing me of being incessantly negative; I haven't been commenting that much on these rules.

I will accept the term of Daedsplaining, but let me elaborate on why I post this info.

We have an OP that gives no additional context. So what are people who are not familiar with the army going to come in here and do? Do they have any information to process? How can they judge if this assessment is accurate? We know that there's more to these sheets than just the units themselves.

So, are we here to have a discussion or are we just here to nod and agree?

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

Ah yes in an Edition where durability goes up and more than one army can still easily just delete stuff left and right, Sisters aka a relatively slow + mostly close range glas canon army still barely have any durability, the damage output of Sisters just goes drastically down, their interactions like auras , anti psyker, unit sizes, etc... just get worse and many new interactions are written in a master of none(which is exactly the opposite of what Sisters need)-way(like the Castigator with it's schizophrenic autocanons and battle canon for example), they effectively get even slower than before and a bit less range, they randomly lose a type of unit(Celestians) and what is the trade-off: a better version of an Order rule that for a very good reason never really worked competetively in an army like Sisters and the hope to get lucky enough with MD...

GW's marketing fairy tales were never great to begin with, and a slow + low range glass canon army without any lethality so obviously don't works that even they should've been able to recognize that.....

 Mythantor wrote:

You cant even put dominions in a Immolator anymore.

Just something to point out regarding this: Immolators have the Combat Squad transport rule, so they can indeed transport Dominions and normal SoB.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did

And often a couple hours isn't enough time to actually process this amount of rules.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:

You cant even put dominions in a Immolator anymore.

Just something to point out regarding this: Immolators have the Combat Squad transport rule, so they can indeed transport Dominions and normal SoB.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did

And often a couple hours isn't enough time to actually process this amount of rules.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:

You cant even put dominions in a Immolator anymore.

Just something to point out regarding this: Immolators have the Combat Squad transport rule, so they can indeed transport Dominions and normal SoB.

So instead we have to play musical immolators to split up our units and get the right ones into transports. which slows us down alot.

It's a bit of a change, but that remainder unit makes for good throw-away models to pick up MD. The Dominion boltguns are now A1 RF2 with Assault and the models can reroll advance rolls. So they can run hard and gum up objectives while still being able to shoot while the other half does their thing.

The Immolator went from T7 to T10 so a boost over the rhino level stats, but I wouldn't shy from Rhinos, either.

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

Sisters durability went down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did

And often a couple hours isn't enough time to actually process this amount of rules.

Didn't stop you from jumping in though to say that it's not so bad! It's a two way street. Again, it's a new edition with a new paradigm, but there's enough info out there for Sisters players to generally say "hmm, we don't seem very well-suited to this".

Lammia wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

Sisters durability went down.

There seems to be fairly easy access to a 4++ and a 5+++ without locking out other characters. I don't know the points obviously and it'd be gakky to be forced into those characters to be viable, but with the changes to transports the humble Rhino is very valuable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pretty sure the Sisters players read the same rules that he did

And often a couple hours isn't enough time to actually process this amount of rules.

Didn't stop you from jumping in though to say that it's not so bad! It's a two way street. Again, it's a new edition with a new paradigm, but there's enough info out there for Sisters players to generally say "hmm, we don't seem very well-suited to this".

I jumped in with relevant info. I don't think my initial post was overtly positive.

I've already been pretty clear in other areas that MM is still a good anti-tank weapon and people just aren't used to wounding on 5s. I get the sense that Sisters might be character heavy, but again...points.

Lets not forget another big part of MM nerf is that they went down to 18" range. As a Sisters player losing those 6" is gonna be painful as heck with how vulnerable we are to melee.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Lammia wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

Sisters durability went down.

There seems to be fairly easy access to a 4++ and a 5+++ without locking out other characters. I don't know the points obviously and it'd be gakky to be forced into those characters to be viable, but with the changes to transports the humble Rhino is very valuable.

4++ on Nundams is great. Exactly what they needed. But those characters seem to just be more points to kill in 1 unit.

Yea it feels like Sisters are a lot like TS in becoming an army the operates best at mid-range. I do most of the work at 18 to 24". Sisters are better at melee than TS is though barring Magnus or the odd DP. ( And Tzaangors might be useful ).

I think the biggest problem will be for newer Sisters players who don't have a deep bench and find themselves scrambling for models...which will be a lot of them considering how many joined with the refresh.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it feels like Sisters are a lot like TS in becoming an army the operates best at mid-range. I do most of the work at 18 to 24". Sisters are better at melee than TS is though barring Magnus or the odd DP. ( And Tzaangors might be useful ).

I think the biggest problem will be for newer Sisters players who don't have a deep bench and find themselves scrambling for models...which will be a lot of them considering how many joined with the refresh.

Sisters have always been a cqc army, hence the heavy lean into melee in recent editions. If you're already in that range...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it feels like Sisters are a lot like TS in becoming an army the operates best at mid-range. I do most of the work at 18 to 24". Sisters are better at melee than TS is though barring Magnus or the odd DP. ( And Tzaangors might be useful ).

I think the biggest problem will be for newer Sisters players who don't have a deep bench and find themselves scrambling for models...which will be a lot of them considering how many joined with the refresh.

I think you mean 6-12" range MM got nerfed range now need to be in 9" to get melta buff.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I think the biggest problem will be for newer Sisters players who don't have a deep bench and find themselves scrambling for models...which will be a lot of them considering how many joined with the refresh.

Hmmm, this seems like that's what GW wants.....

Well, my Bloody Rose is gonna remain on the shelf. Or not as I'm sure I can play 30k militia with them, so not all is lost. Just no 40k

tneva82 wrote:
Ahyes. In edition where durability goes up sisters supposed to jupt delete units at will as before.

Reduced lethality great as long as apply only your opponent eh?

It is all nice and good till you see that eldar aren't locked in to 10 man units, have bigger mobility, incomperable higher raw damage and not just damage potential, and are more resiliance. Then we can talk about how 10th is an edition where stuff doesn't get deleted anymore. But even if you were right, anti tank units that can't kill tanks and can't survive being shot back is bad design in an edition where you put focus on vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

And often a couple hours isn't enough time to actually process this amount of rules.

Daedalus please, people had the rules for longer then a few hours. If I could get my hands on the index a week before, then some dudes in UK can easily get a month, or so, head start. That is why everyone is calling out inconsistancies within the rules or how rules differ between different language versions.

 Mythantor wrote:
I think you mean 6-12" range MM got nerfed range now need to be in 9" to get melta buff.

For maximum effect, yea, but I think the idea is to try and push damage via MD. A couple 6s is as good as a prism in that sense ( obviously not in any other regard ).

I think Sisters is going to be high ceiling trying to manage / generate MD and dealing with losses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Daedalus please, people had the rules for longer then a few hours. If I could get my hands on the index a week before, then some dudes in UK can easily get a month, or so, head start. That is why everyone is calling out inconsistancies within the rules or how rules differ between different language versions.

So you had the index and shared nothing about them?

This post was not started by someone with advanced access. People calling out inconsistencies are those with early access, either. What you're seeing is a huge collective of people all looking at something at the same time and noticing different things. Let's be serious here.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
I think you mean 6-12" range MM got nerfed range now need to be in 9" to get melta buff.

For maximum effect, yea, but I think the idea is to try and push damage via MD. A couple 6s is as good as a prism in that sense ( obviously not in any other regard ).

I think Sisters is going to be high ceiling trying to manage / generate MD and dealing with losses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Daedalus please, people had the rules for longer then a few hours. If I could get my hands on the index a week before, then some dudes in UK can easily get a month, or so, head start. That is why everyone is calling out inconsistancies within the rules or how rules differ between different language versions.

So you had the index and shared nothing about them?

This post was not started by someone with advanced access. People calling out inconsistencies are those with early access, either. What you're seeing is a huge collective of people all looking at something at the same time and noticing different things. Let's be serious here.

Cant us a MD to set the damage roll if you need to use it to gaurantee the wound.

So you had the index and shared nothing about them?

I asked if it was okey to do it and I was told it was illegal to share rules and point costs, before the premier. So I ain't doing that.

I get the wait and see approche etc. But the riot about eldar real does have a base. Some "broken" stuff is just funny like the GK chaplain having a worse nemezis force weapon or str 6 thunder hammers. There are very powerful, IMO as I ain't no tournament or good player, army in index 10th. IG, marines of the primaris kind , the DE. But Eldar really do have that 9th ed pre nerf DE feel or Votan. And while I was dead against changes to Votan, the box has been opened. There is no going back to, no big nerfs pre release times. Now GW can ignore the community, they did so in the past. But it will feel like favouritism. And I guess non eldar players will not like it.

Plus getting rules in advance is hardly a new thing. I mean, before GW laid off their playtesters, some people had an oddly ready to play specific army builds for tournament play day one. To be honest I don't care about it that much, AoS is , with all its flaws and lower support, becoming my main game more and more. But I still think GW should care about its player base a bit more.

Some of the stuff they did was vicious. The Custodes change to axes and vexhila is brutal. GW knows people had all ax allarus and wardens. They know, because they wrote the rules, that people are going to have 1 vexila per army.
I guess it doesn't matter for people who buy fresh armies, but for people with existing armies, this is horrible. How many people, instead of quiting or shelfing the army, are going to buy 2-3x2 boxes just to be able to have legal optimised units? On top of that they know full well that the custodes army is like 50% FW units, yet non of the FW units are in the index. And then to rub it in, they leave the contemptor for custodes, but remove them for marines.
But then again this is my second edition change, so I should not be suprised that GW stops to care about you as soon as you buy an army.

Understood. I'm thinking the damage roll is the most impactful place to use it. Wound rolls will have to be rerolls from Immolator or the impractical +1 from less than half a BSS squad.

In general I don't think wound rolls will be a huge problem, but I can see how the curve could create some feels bad moments.

There's a dynamic with Sisters where you don't want to kill them and give up the MD, but you also don't want to leave them wounded. I don't know which end of that will win out and if the extra MD from losing units will be beneficial to the overall game state.