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gunchar wrote:
And i also will repeat this: Sisters are a slow + low range glass canon army, if they don't have lethality they have nothing, and they can't even remotely laugh at enemies firepower(and i'm not just talking about the broken Eldar or Space Marines here).

How shall we use our slow + low range glass canon army to any effect?

Two words: Rhino. Immolator.

So we need to do what we used to do before 8th/9th edition made vehicles to expensive to be as fragile as they are. As long as they don't overcost these two transports, we have a way to make things work.

 alextroy wrote:

gunchar wrote:
And i also will repeat this: Sisters are a slow + low range glass canon army, if they don't have lethality they have nothing, and they can't even remotely laugh at enemies firepower(and i'm not just talking about the broken Eldar or Space Marines here).

How shall we use our slow + low range glass canon army to any effect?

Two words: Rhino. Immolator.

So we need to do what we used to do before 8th/9th edition made vehicles to expensive to be as fragile as they are. As long as they don't overcost these two transports, we have a way to make things work.

You're not wrong, but I do predict a modest price increase for most vehicles this edition given that they seem to be appreciably more durable. So while they might not be overcosted, I wouldn't be surprised if a rhino or immolator takes up a larger portion of your points than it used to.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
I'm like 90% sure the dominion bolter tags are a transcription error

Because they are good?

assault bolter makes some sense since they are an advance based unit. rapid 2 does not as its the same as the stormbolter

Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

Melta kept it's ap4 so you're going to ignore the armour of most vehicles.

Could also grab a palatine for some lethal hits. Or the banner character to pass out some devastating wounds. Both of which you can combine with Miracle dice right? And there are a few ways to make a Miracle dice an auto 6.

But yes, the -6 range on a multi melta is a bit naff, but it's also global not just sisters.

cody.d. wrote:
Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

Melta kept it's ap4 so you're going to ignore the armour of most vehicles.

Could also grab a palatine for some lethal hits. Or the banner character to pass out some devastating wounds. Both of which you can combine with Miracle dice right? And there are a few ways to make a Miracle dice an auto 6.

But yes, the -6 range on a multi melta is a bit naff, but it's also global not just sisters.

A unit below half strength is a dead unit. Even Necrons have T4 at least.

Lammia wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

Melta kept it's ap4 so you're going to ignore the armour of most vehicles.

Could also grab a palatine for some lethal hits. Or the banner character to pass out some devastating wounds. Both of which you can combine with Miracle dice right? And there are a few ways to make a Miracle dice an auto 6.

But yes, the -6 range on a multi melta is a bit naff, but it's also global not just sisters.

A unit below half strength is a dead unit. Even Necrons have T4 at least.

You're right, if a unit is below half strength you should just remove it from the board.

Lammia wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

Melta kept it's ap4 so you're going to ignore the armour of most vehicles.

Could also grab a palatine for some lethal hits. Or the banner character to pass out some devastating wounds. Both of which you can combine with Miracle dice right? And there are a few ways to make a Miracle dice an auto 6.

But yes, the -6 range on a multi melta is a bit naff, but it's also global not just sisters.

A unit below half strength is a dead unit. Even Necrons have T4 at least.

I mean, given that the last model removed should be a Melta/Multimelta model, opposing forces would have to be very careful to either not drop below half-strength a unit or, if it is below, kill it now.

Five T3 W1 3+ models take...
33 BS 3+ AP0 (or AP-1 but cover) Bolters (Heavy Bolters too, if cover)
60 BS 4+ Lasguns (no Lethal Hits)
20ish BS 3+ Assault Cannon shots

That's not insignificant firepower. It's not a TON, but leaving a singular Multimelta online with +1 to-wound gives, at worst, just shy of 40% odds of wounding a T14 model once, and a just shy of 5% chance of wounding it twice.

 vipoid wrote:
I should add, too, that GW approached the problem in the most asinine way possible. The logical solution would have been to give vehicles very good saves (including 1+ saves) and cut down on invulnerable saves. This would then have combined well with overall reductions to AP of many weapons. Anti-vehicle weapons, though, could retain their AP - which would finally serve a meaningful purpose.

Wait, this wouldn't have helped at all? One of the biggest offenders for anti-everything was plasma, which has high AP so it can kill terminators. Do you think an ork truck should have better armor than a terminator?

tneva82 wrote:


So you enpectea strength to just go up same as t? Would kinda negate point with nothing changing...

I expect SOME of the Strength to go up, like SOME of the toughness went up. Monsters and Vehicles got tougher. The Strength of weapons for Monsters and Vehicles should have also gone up. The point of this change was to make the anti-"elite" weapons less functional vs the "tanks" so that the tanks had more chance, and the choice between a Grav Gun and a Lascannon was more meaningful. Oops.

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


So you enpectea strength to just go up same as t? Would kinda negate point with nothing changing...

I expect SOME of the Strength to go up, like SOME of the toughness went up. Monsters and Vehicles got tougher. The Strength of weapons for Monsters and Vehicles should have also gone up. The point of this change was to make the anti-"elite" weapons less functional vs the "tanks" so that the tanks had more chance, and the choice between a Grav Gun and a Lascannon was more meaningful. Oops.

*Points to weapons where the strength did go up.*

GW's solution works; plasma is no good against tanks, lascannons are, and big bricks like the monolith are only easily wounded by the most apocalyptic weapons available. The only issue here is that melta got left behind for no obvious reason.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


So you enpectea strength to just go up same as t? Would kinda negate point with nothing changing...

I expect SOME of the Strength to go up, like SOME of the toughness went up. Monsters and Vehicles got tougher. The Strength of weapons for Monsters and Vehicles should have also gone up. The point of this change was to make the anti-"elite" weapons less functional vs the "tanks" so that the tanks had more chance, and the choice between a Grav Gun and a Lascannon was more meaningful. Oops.

*Points to weapons where the strength did go up.*

Lascannons, and one-offs with a Las Vegas Statline. Not really on the Melta or Kraks. Besides, Anti-Vehicle 2+ on the Gravs make the whole exercise pretty much redundant anyway. Remember the Guilliman Parking Lot? Anyone else see the Guilliman Crosswalk with Bobby G and a bunch of Grav Cannon Devastators?

Breton wrote:
Lascannons, and one-offs with a Las Vegas Statline. Not really on the Melta or Kraks. Besides, Anti-Vehicle 2+ on the Gravs make the whole exercise pretty much redundant anyway. Remember the Guilliman Parking Lot? Anyone else see the Guilliman Crosswalk with Bobby G and a bunch of Grav Cannon Devastators?

Melta still messes up tanks pretty well especially when paired with things like miracle dice, reroll wounds, etc. It's just not as good as it used to be which is what a durability increase means.

So in other words, they don't mess up tanks particularly well unless you layer additional rules onto them.

It's like you came into this thread only having read half the posts.

Durabilty for sisters has also gone up, a character gives 4++, medics give FNP and you can tank wounds on a character and heal 3 back a turn. And each character can be rezed with a stratagem.

A unit of retrubutors hopping out of an immolator also feel like they'd do a number on many tanks.

Also, I'm assuming melta went up to 9 so you don't have to wound the big T16 stuff like stompas on 6s.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So in other words, they don't mess up tanks particularly well unless you layer additional rules onto them.

It's like you came into this thread only having read half the posts.

If you're worried about tanks why wouldn't you build a good tank-hunting unit and use your faction rules and rerolls to support that unit? That's how modern 40k works, you layer rules on specialist units to overcome problems.

But even Retributors maxing multi-meltas AREN'T a particularly good tank-hunting unit. That's the point.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Melta still messes up tanks pretty well especially when paired with things like miracle dice, reroll wounds, etc. It's just not as good as it used to be which is what a durability increase means.

Not really - They get 4 Multi-Meltas per squad, Range 18 - 9 for MELTA - so no ablative wounds, and only reroll 1 on the wounds roll for less than a 40% success rate. Give them 9 shots including the Superior's Inferno pistol 6 hit, 2 wound for about 11 damage on average. That means half the time they also do worse than that. Even if they're cheap, they're still rule-of-three. As near as I can tell looking at the sheets the best source of Anti-tank for Sisters is allying in Armigers. They don't have lascannon, they don't have grav. And they had to give up their Heavy Bolters to get the Meltas.

5 Man DevSquad with Grav: 12 Strength Who-Cares -1/-2 Range 24" D3 shots + a grav pistol hitting on rerollable 2's or 3's, rerolling all wounds but only caring about the 1's that can go in a Drop Pod
5 Woman Retributors: 8 S9 -4 D6+2 9" range shots plus a Melta Pistol that reroll a 1 to wound and that may or may not have enough miracle dice to help and can go in a Rhino.

First Turn: Drop Pod Assault, Devastator Doctrine,
11 hits, 10 wounders, 3+ - 2 = 6ish unsaved, 18 Damage.
First Turn: Rhino Rush
6 hits, 2ish wounders, 3+ -4 2ish unsaved 11 Damage. with one Miracle dice in there somewhere probably on the wound roll

Grav deletes a Repulsor or less - but probably not quite a Land Raider.
Melta doesn't QUITE delete a Gladiator, Vindicator (2+ save) but probably does delete the Predator.

That's a pretty big differential. It gets worse when you see the Tac Squads potentially carrying a Lascannon for polishing off things that didn't quite die due to averages or not-quite-deleted, but the Battle Sisters Squad can't take the Lascannon, and would likely be hysterically out range for Multi-Melta Support.

Sisters are just in a bad spot. Most of it is changing the weapon roles leaving them without a weapon for the role. Some of it is they need a range expansion. Their faction/Det abilities being late-game not Alphastrike focused just piles onto an already bad situation for them.

So a unit of retributors in a immolator rockup to a landraider. You can even fit a cannoness in there if you want to make sure it dies. Unless my maths is bad you should be pretty close to one shotting it on average.

Also, can you use multiple miricale dice in a single shooting attack now?

Breton wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Melta still messes up tanks pretty well especially when paired with things like miracle dice, reroll wounds, etc. It's just not as good as it used to be which is what a durability increase means.

Not really - They get 4 Multi-Meltas per squad, Range 18 - 9 for MELTA - so no ablative wounds, and only reroll 1 on the wounds roll for less than a 40% success rate. Give them 9 shots including the Superior's Inferno pistol 6 hit, 2 wound for about 11 damage on average. That means half the time they also do worse than that. Even if they're cheap, they're still rule-of-three. As near as I can tell looking at the sheets the best source of Anti-tank for Sisters is allying in Armigers. They don't have lascannon, they don't have grav. And they had to give up their Heavy Bolters to get the Meltas.

5 Man DevSquad with Grav: 12 Strength Who-Cares -1/-2 Range 24" D3 shots + a grav pistol hitting on rerollable 2's or 3's, rerolling all wounds but only caring about the 1's that can go in a Drop Pod
5 Woman Retributors: 8 S9 -4 D6+2 9" range shots plus a Melta Pistol that reroll a 1 to wound and that may or may not have enough miracle dice to help and can go in a Rhino.

First Turn: Drop Pod Assault, Devastator Doctrine,
11 hits, 10 wounders, 3+ - 2 = 6ish unsaved, 18 Damage.
First Turn: Rhino Rush
6 hits, 2ish wounders, 3+ -4 2ish unsaved 11 Damage. with one Miracle dice in there somewhere probably on the wound roll

Grav deletes a Repulsor or less - but probably not quite a Land Raider.
Melta doesn't QUITE delete a Gladiator, Vindicator (2+ save) but probably does delete the Predator.

That's a pretty big differential. It gets worse when you see the Tac Squads potentially carrying a Lascannon for polishing off things that didn't quite die due to averages or not-quite-deleted, but the Battle Sisters Squad can't take the Lascannon, and would likely be hysterically out range for Multi-Melta Support.

Sisters are just in a bad spot. Most of it is changing the weapon roles leaving them without a weapon for the role. Some of it is they need a range expansion. Their faction/Det abilities being late-game not Alphastrike focused just piles onto an already bad situation for them.

I should also add I think an equal half of the problem is giving Grav Anti-Vehicle 2+

I think Melta should have been given Anti-Vehicle (probably 3+ or 4+ but not 2+) and MAYBE (pending a deep dive on Primarchs, Nids, and Daemons) Anti-Monster 4+. If they have their heart set on giving Grav Anti-Vehicle it should probably top out at 5+ to still tag the T11+ vehicles, but even that I'm pretty meh on.

Grav is way too good, Melta is not good enough.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
If you're worried about tanks why wouldn't you build a good tank-hunting unit and use your faction rules and rerolls to support that unit? That's how modern 40k works, you layer rules on specialist units to overcome problems.

I admit there are two threads with similar conversations going on, so I'm sorry you haven't seen everything said on the topic so far. That's on me.

As to your point about building a good AT unit, well, that's the issue that's being discussed. To copy over what I said in the other thread:

I wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Melta weapons are just anti-elite now, rather than anti-vehicle.

New edition, new role. Like how grav guns went from anti-elite to anti-vehicle for some reason.

And that's fine.

Sure, it doesn't make sense that after 10 editions they've decided to change the role of one of the most prolific and storied anti-tank weapons in the game, but whatever - let's go with it! - and we'll say that the change to the meltagun is entirely intentional and it is meant to be an anti-elite weapon. I think it steps on the toes of what Plasma weapons are meant to do, but as I said, let's go with it and accept this as inentional. Fine.

Alongside this, your other anti-tank weapons (like the equally as prolific and common Lascannon) change to keep up with the changes in toughness values, and, if anything, further define the difference between an anti-tank and an anti-elite weapon. Also fine.

But Sisters don't have any other anti-tank weapons to increase and keep pace. Melta weaponry was their thing, and now they've been left behind. Do you see the issue?

If you choose to change the role of a near-universal weapon type for every army, then you have be aware that it might create some serious gaps. Other armies have Lascannons and Krak Missiles and other things that have changed, so the loss of melta-weaponry as a premiere tank killer isn't really that bitter a pill to swallow. For Sisters the buck stopped with Multi-Meltas.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So in other words, they don't mess up tanks particularly well unless you layer additional rules onto them.

It's like you came into this thread only having read half the posts.

Lord Damocles wrote:But even Retributors maxing multi-meltas AREN'T a particularly good tank-hunting unit. That's the point.

It's almost like they want you to buy the Castigstor....and even then, not really

If the Castigator is good for anything it's the battle-shock effect, it's definitely not your anti-tank.

Breton wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Melta still messes up tanks pretty well especially when paired with things like miracle dice, reroll wounds, etc. It's just not as good as it used to be which is what a durability increase means.

Not really - They get 4 Multi-Meltas per squad, Range 18 - 9 for MELTA - so no ablative wounds, and only reroll 1 on the wounds roll for less than a 40% success rate. Give them 9 shots including the Superior's Inferno pistol 6 hit, 2 wound for about 11 damage on average. That means half the time they also do worse than that. Even if they're cheap, they're still rule-of-three. As near as I can tell looking at the sheets the best source of Anti-tank for Sisters is allying in Armigers. They don't have lascannon, they don't have grav. And they had to give up their Heavy Bolters to get the Meltas.

5 Man DevSquad with Grav: 12 Strength Who-Cares -1/-2 Range 24" D3 shots + a grav pistol hitting on rerollable 2's or 3's, rerolling all wounds but only caring about the 1's that can go in a Drop Pod
5 Woman Retributors: 8 S9 -4 D6+2 9" range shots plus a Melta Pistol that reroll a 1 to wound and that may or may not have enough miracle dice to help and can go in a Rhino.

First Turn: Drop Pod Assault, Devastator Doctrine,
11 hits, 10 wounders, 3+ - 2 = 6ish unsaved, 18 Damage.
First Turn: Rhino Rush
6 hits, 2ish wounders, 3+ -4 2ish unsaved 11 Damage. with one Miracle dice in there somewhere probably on the wound roll

Grav deletes a Repulsor or less - but probably not quite a Land Raider.
Melta doesn't QUITE delete a Gladiator, Vindicator (2+ save) but probably does delete the Predator.

That's a pretty big differential. It gets worse when you see the Tac Squads potentially carrying a Lascannon for polishing off things that didn't quite die due to averages or not-quite-deleted, but the Battle Sisters Squad can't take the Lascannon, and would likely be hysterically out range for Multi-Melta Support.

Sisters are just in a bad spot. Most of it is changing the weapon roles leaving them without a weapon for the role. Some of it is they need a range expansion. Their faction/Det abilities being late-game not Alphastrike focused just piles onto an already bad situation for them.

You might correct me if I've missed something but looking at just the two datasheets those numbers don't appear to be correct. Disembarking from either a drop pod or rhino that moved means both units are hitting on 4's.

Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).

Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).

EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.

Bencyclopedia wrote:


Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).

Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).

EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.

You're right, I forgot the Disembarking/Heavy conflict - but the Devastators with Devastator Doctrine on the First Turn Drop Pod Alpha Strike still get more damage with -2 and OOM rerolls. 12 shots 9 hits. 8.Most-of-9 wounds, only 3 saves, 6*3 = ~18 damage - my initial unsaved to damage math worked out about the same based on how I was rounding 1/3 of 10, reroll 1's. Anti-Vehicle 2+ is just too big of a swing between them vs T10 where most of the tanks live.

Breton wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:


Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).

Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).

EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.

You're right, I forgot the Disembarking/Heavy conflict - but the Devastators with Devastator Doctrine on the First Turn Drop Pod Alpha Strike still get more damage with -2 and OOM rerolls. 12 shots 9 hits. 8.Most-of-9 wounds, only 3 saves, 6*3 = ~18 damage - my initial unsaved to damage math worked out about the same based on how I was rounding 1/3 of 10, reroll 1's. Anti-Vehicle 2+ is just too big of a swing between them vs T10 where most of the tanks live.

Devastator Doctrine doesn't give -1AP though does it? That was 9th?

OOM certainly makes a big difference though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure, it doesn't make sense that after 10 editions they've decided to change the role of one of the most prolific and storied anti-tank weapons in the game, but whatever - let's go with it! - and we'll say that the change to the meltagun is entirely intentional and it is meant to be an anti-elite weapon. I think it steps on the toes of what Plasma weapons are meant to do, but as I said, let's go with it and accept this as inentional. Fine.

Alongside this, your other anti-tank weapons (like the equally as prolific and common Lascannon) change to keep up with the changes in toughness values, and, if anything, further define the difference between an anti-tank and an anti-elite weapon. Also fine.

But Sisters don't have any other anti-tank weapons to increase and keep pace. Melta weaponry was their thing, and now they've been left behind. Do you see the issue?

If you choose to change the role of a near-universal weapon type for every army, then you have be aware that it might create some serious gaps. Other armies have Lascannons and Krak Missiles and other things that have changed, so the loss of melta-weaponry as a premiere tank killer isn't really that bitter a pill to swallow. For Sisters the buck stopped with Multi-Meltas.

I've seen your posts in other threads. I just don't agree with it and expect that Sisters will end up as a middle-tier army with just what we see in their index.

You have good combinations for dealing with vehicles:

Palatine + Dominions w/ 4x Melta Guns and 1x Inferno Pistol
Paragon Warsuits in Melee (Use Holy Rage as Required)
Retributors + Immolator

I think you'll do just fine against vehicles.

Bencyclopedia wrote:

Breton wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:


Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).

Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).

EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.

You're right, I forgot the Disembarking/Heavy conflict - but the Devastators with Devastator Doctrine on the First Turn Drop Pod Alpha Strike still get more damage with -2 and OOM rerolls. 12 shots 9 hits. 8.Most-of-9 wounds, only 3 saves, 6*3 = ~18 damage - my initial unsaved to damage math worked out about the same based on how I was rounding 1/3 of 10, reroll 1's. Anti-Vehicle 2+ is just too big of a swing between them vs T10 where most of the tanks live.

Devastator Doctrine doesn't give -1AP though does it? That was 9th?

OOM certainly makes a big difference though.

Whoops, Dev + Storm of Fire. I did too much of that in my head, sorry. The point of Dev Doctrine was to get the extra -1 for Storm of Fire.

Turn 1 Alpha Strike, you're already likely doing Dev Doctrine from your Detachment ability for everyone to get advance and shoot - plus Hal is going to open the Pod Bay Doors - you have between 1 and 3 (or potentially but unlikely more) CP to spend - the Run and Gun guys should have a Captain for the freebie Strats which can duplicate Storm of Fire if necessary, but First things First, OOM the Biggest Baddest Tank you're worried about, If you have Bobby G, essentially but not quite OOM a secondary target) land the pod(s), Run everyone else you want to, Storm of Fire the Devs, Alpha the biggest baddest tank you're worried about, If you have G, Alpha the second biggest baddest thing you're worried about. Shoot the rest of your Free Repeat Strat Shots at priority or opportunity targets as available. Anyone think that isn't going to be a fairly standard first SM turn? For the life if me I can't find the datasheet for the new Lieutenant. I'm pretty sure I've seen it but I can't remember where. I think he couldn't lead, was always a lone operative and had an Aura, but I can't remember where I saw that IF I saw that.


Edit: Found it - they changed his name from Phobos Lieutenant to Lieutenant with Combi-weapon and he's nowhere near all the other LT's - He is Lone Operative, Infiltrate and Stealth - he has a designate an objective to reroll 1's to wound. So its not a second Storm of Fire, but it does help if you can't double OOM.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Imagine a S12 MM --

2 * .5 * .666 * 3.5 = 2.3 / 3.7 // T9 to T11
2 * .5 * .5 * .833 * 3.5 = 1.5 / 2.3 // T12

And so you might say, "Well, yea short range!", but that ignores all the platforms that are very fast -- including the ones where they shoot out of a Rhino and get +1 to hit and +1 to wound for the Rhino being on low wounds or any other buffs that might be available to this platform.

Imagining a proper Melta just makes me think even more that the incompetent comedian who wrote the gakky actual 10th Edition Melta should get fired asap.

But hey, luckily GW just saved us from the broken combo of 2 anti-tank weapons firing out of a Rhino actually doing some decent dmg to a vehicle, that would've been certainly sooo much worse than the crazy MW spam combos of multiple other armies...

 alextroy wrote:

Two words: Rhino. Immolator.

Yeah great, we need an Immolator now just for Retributors to actually do their job, and what exactly do you even expect a firing deck 2 Rhino to do?

 alextroy wrote:
So we need to do what we used to do before 8th/9th edition

Hoping for plastic Sisters + an actual Codex or playing Celestine combos in Imperium mix armies?

cody.d. wrote:
Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

What you are forgeting is: Sisters are a slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army.

cody.d. wrote:
Durabilty for sisters has also gone up

Hardly.

cody.d. wrote:
a character gives 4++, medics give FNP and you can tank wounds on a character and heal 3 back a turn.

You mean the same medic you can only add in Battle Sisters Squad(which nobody in their right mind will ever do) as an addition to another leader?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

I just don't agree with it and expect that Sisters will end up as a middle-tier army with just what we see in their index.

Oh great, the WH40K community codeword for: an army clearly sucks(at least on paper), but someone just don't wants to admit it.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

You have good combinations for dealing with vehicles:

Palatine + Dominions w/ 4x Melta Guns and 1x Inferno Pistol
Paragon Warsuits in Melee (Use Holy Rage as Required)
Retributors + Immolator

Ah yes hoping that an Ultra fragile squad of Dominions that lack range will make it to the target, a giant point sink to end up with 1 Warsuit doing some decent and Morven Vahl doing at best okayish dmg to anything that's actually tough, and 1 combo that actually works but is literally just tank-hunters needing a specific vehicle with weird ability shenanigans to simply do their job...

 Canadian 5th wrote:

I think you'll do just fine against vehicles.

gunchar wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Two words: Rhino. Immolator.

Yeah great, we need an Immolator now just for Retributors to actually do their job, and what exactly do you even expect a firing deck 2 Rhino to do?

 alextroy wrote:
So we need to do what we used to do before 8th/9th edition

Hoping for plastic Sisters + an actual Codex or playing Celestine combos in Imperium mix armies?

cody.d. wrote:
Lets not forget blood of martyrs. Yes you gotta be below half strength but still would help a combat unit wound a tank easily. And you have holy rage for another 1+ to wound.

What you are forgeting is: Sisters are a slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army

The point of Rhinos and Immolators is to give movement and durability to your slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army. They get you to where you need to be and soak the damage until you decide to disembark. Firing Deck on the Rhino is gravy.