Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If memory serves from long, long ago, he's some kind of messenger-robot that flies around bearing news to people.

Except now there are no actual robots in 40k, so is he still a thing? Or is he just some poor slob who couldn't pay his income taxes or whatever, and so got his brain stuffed into a robot body, and now gets to fly around doing this?

Thanks

[/img]WhatsThisGuyIn40k.bmp[img]




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Why can't I show his picture? I was able to do this with my maps in other threads. Why not here?

That's just bog standard cherub: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cherub

And robots are very much still a thing, used in a lot of roles by all Imperial factions, it's just servitors are more popular for partially religious, partially economic reasons.

They are a type of servitor, though unlike something like a Servoskull which used to be a literal human that got turned into the servoskull the Cherubs are grown in vats. They're more like test-tube baby servitors instead of condemned criminal servitor.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

[/img]WhatsThisGuyIn40k.bmp[img]

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Why can't I show his picture? I was able to do this with my maps in other threads. Why not here?

the link you used in the image tags isn't a complete url, what's your hosting service? were you trying to link to a image found online, or something on your own hard drive?

Robots are different from Automata in 40K.

Actual robots as we and general sci-fi have them, are banned.

Automata have some kind of wet-wear. A cogitator incorporating human brain matter, weather, erm….”donated”. Or cloned.

 Irbis wrote:
That's just bog standard cherub: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cherub

And robots are very much still a thing, used in a lot of roles by all Imperial factions, it's just servitors are more popular for partially religious, partially economic reasons.

Really? When did that start back up? I thought that from maybe 3rd ed on, they did the Dune "Thou shalt not make a machine that thinks like a man" thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mithril2098 wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

[/img]WhatsThisGuyIn40k.bmp[img]

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Why can't I show his picture? I was able to do this with my maps in other threads. Why not here?

the link you used in the image tags isn't a complete url, what's your hosting service? were you trying to link to a image found online, or something on your own hard drive?

From my hard drive, but I did it exactly the same way I did the maps here. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810567.page Or did I? Who knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Robots are different from Automata in 40K.

Actual robots as we and general sci-fi have them, are banned.

Automata have some kind of wet-wear. A cogitator incorporating human brain matter, weather, erm….”donated”. Or cloned.

That's pretty much what I remember. I always wondered why they did that. Robots are such a staple of sci fi.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
That's just bog standard cherub: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cherub

And robots are very much still a thing, used in a lot of roles by all Imperial factions, it's just servitors are more popular for partially religious, partially economic reasons.

Really? When did that start back up? I thought that from maybe 3rd ed on, they did the Dune "Thou shalt not make a machine that thinks like a man" thing?

Unlike Dune, the Imperium(or rather humanity as a whole, the psychological trauma of the Men of Iron revolt is genetic at this point) is a little more flexible on what exactly counts as a "Silica Animus" or thinking machine or AI.

They define AI as what we today would define it. A fully sentient entity that resides wholly within an artificial construct, like a computer. Any computers that are wholly artificial need to be dumb and unthinking, much like the computers we have in modern day. But if you use human neural tissue(a whole brain or just parts) you can make a thinking computer that is far beyond what can be done in modern day. This gives the benefits of AI with some major safeguards.

Such an intelligence is hampered by it being at its core a brain damaged human. Thus it is unlikely to be able to plot a rebellion and even if it somehow does it can't exist without humanity because it is made of humanity.

Dune went a step further and largely banned artificial computing entirely. They instead use advanced hardware that feeds into Mentats who act as the operating system replacement.

In 40k you can still have a personal computer analog, it may or may not have human brains inside it, but in Dune you dont have such systems.

If the OP does not know what a Cherub is, they have a lot of catching up to do with regards to lore. A lot has been added since Rogue Trader, and cherubs have been a staple in the setting as far back as original Necromunda (IIRC?)

As for the Automatons et al in current 40K lore, I never understood why cyborgs would be "safer" for the IoM than pure machines.. since cyborgs could be more easily corrupted by Chaos, no? Men Of Iron are long gone by now in the setting, while the forces of Chaos are omnipresent... Doesn't make a lot of sense.. but then again, 40K lore falls apart when you think about it too much so lets just not go there

 tauist wrote:
If the OP does not know what a Cherub is, they have a lot of catching up to do with regards to lore. A lot has been added since Rogue Trader, and cherubs have been a staple in the setting as far back as original Necromunda (IIRC?)

As for the Automatons et al in current 40K lore, I never understood why cyborgs would be "safer" for the IoM than pure machines.. since cyborgs could be more easily corrupted by Chaos, no? Men Of Iron are long gone by now in the setting, while the forces of Chaos are omnipresent... Doesn't make a lot of sense.. but then again, 40K lore falls apart when you think about it too much so lets just not go there

The Men of Iron may be gone, but the threat of a self-replicating AI rebellion is not. Yes, a servitor can be corrupted by chaos, but that is no different than a normal human. There isn't an extra threat. If anything its less because its a brain damaged vegetable of a human.

Its not like an AI is immune to chaos corruption either, there were chaos corrupted Men of Iron as well. At least with cyborgs you don't have the threat of them becoming a new problem.

And this isn't just that the Imperium thought "we should ban AIs because of the Men of Iron". Its far more deeper and primal. The Men of Iron rebellion happened many tens of thousands of years in the past, predating the imperium. It is a psychological scar that is ingrained in humanity's collective subconsciousness. Like being scared of the dark or creepy crawlies or uncontrolled fire.

It is a perfectly rational fear, held by those who survived the AI rebellion and passed down to their descendents. Those who live in the 41st millenium do hold a horrific fear of AI, but it is founded in a very rational fear of those actually dealt with it.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Hmm. Why can't I show his picture? I was able to do this with my maps in other threads. Why not here?

Perhaps try a jpg rather than a bmp image format?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 tauist wrote:
If the OP does not know what a Cherub is, they have a lot of catching up to do with regards to lore. A lot has been added since Rogue Trader, and cherubs have been a staple in the setting as far back as original Necromunda (IIRC?)

As for the Automatons et al in current 40K lore, I never understood why cyborgs would be "safer" for the IoM than pure machines.. since cyborgs could be more easily corrupted by Chaos, no? Men Of Iron are long gone by now in the setting, while the forces of Chaos are omnipresent... Doesn't make a lot of sense.. but then again, 40K lore falls apart when you think about it too much so lets just not go there

The Men of Iron may be gone, but the threat of a self-replicating AI rebellion is not. Yes, a servitor can be corrupted by chaos, but that is no different than a normal human. There isn't an extra threat. If anything its less because its a brain damaged vegetable of a human.

Its not like an AI is immune to chaos corruption either, there were chaos corrupted Men of Iron as well. At least with cyborgs you don't have the threat of them becoming a new problem.

And this isn't just that the Imperium thought "we should ban AIs because of the Men of Iron". Its far more deeper and primal. The Men of Iron rebellion happened many tens of thousands of years in the past, predating the imperium. It is a psychological scar that is ingrained in humanity's collective subconsciousness. Like being scared of the dark or creepy crawlies or uncontrolled fire.

It is a perfectly rational fear, held by those who survived the AI rebellion and passed down to their descendents. Those who live in the 41st millenium do hold a horrific fear of AI, but it is founded in a very rational fear of those actually dealt with it.

There’s also the question of do the Ad Mech actually have an understanding of what AI truly is.

We have reports of Titans and Land Raiders, which involve highly advanced “machine spirits” acting independently of crew, albeit so far as I can think never against their intended purpose. So there’s some capability for independent action, but apparently not novel thought. Indeed part of a Titan Prince-‘a training is to actively rein in their charge’s instinctual programming.

And as I’ve speculated many times before, the Imperium as a whole is almost certainly completely ignorant of where AI actually began, let alone where the Men of Iron’s rebellion took seed. For all we and they know? It could’ve begun Skynet style, just with a single flawed programme, which was then able to alter other programmes to have whatever that flaw was.

I think the general idea is that once a machine starts giving voice to feelings or opinions (that is those not programmed such as hatred for Xenos or Chaos) then it's an Abominable Intelligence.
The Rynn's Might for example would not be considered AI because it only held to its programmed behaviors even though it enacted devastation upon the Orks.
The Kaban Machine, however, was AI because it could feel and form opinions. It would ask questions of its creators and give responses similar to that of a human child. While it was programmed to be a weapon it could question orders or commands in the same way a human could.

The recent books for the end of 9th included a machine which was actively hiding its AI Nature.

Sure that’s but a single example across the entire Imperium, but it does rather raise the question of what other Machine Spirits might simply being pragmatic, preferring some level of existence over, y’know, getting their digital teeth kicked in.

Possibly? Though sentience is a gradual scale and any machine that achieved it would struggle not to be found out unless it was unbelievably intelligent.
The difficulty arrives when religion comes into play with the Mechanicus because some signs of sentience will be chalked up to the Machine Spirit or even the Omnissiah itself. Titans are revered as avatars of the Omnissiah so if one eventually did gain full sentience, you can bet that there would be many within the Mechanicus who would consider the Titan to be the Omnissiah given form rather than an AI.
And to be fair, considering the general state of ignorance and lack of intelligence among the wider human population, especially in Hive cities or backwater worlds, an AI could hide for thousands of years without being discovered, like UR-025.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Robots are different from Automata in 40K.

Actual robots as we and general sci-fi have them, are banned.

Automata have some kind of wet-wear. A cogitator incorporating human brain matter, weather, erm….”donated”. Or cloned.

Erm, no. This is pretty much all completely wrong. Let's take most common robot in the Imperium, the servo skull (no, there is no brain in there anymore, the only thing 'organic' is the case, rest is pretty much all electronics). Produced by billions, very much not banned. Then you have CAT units, used by everyone from IG to SM, also produced in massive quantities, not even a sliver of wetware:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cyber-Altered_Task

Both have lots of models even on tabletop, never mind in lore. Then there is stuff used by Legio Cybernetica, which is again pretty much all pure robots, not servitors or anything powered by brain matter. Cogitators, too, some do use brains but vast majority is 100% normal solidware computers.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Really? When did that start back up? I thought that from maybe 3rd ed on, they did the Dune "Thou shalt not make a machine that thinks like a man" thing?

The ban is not on machines, it's on AI. And funnily enough, it's the Admech higher ups who decide what is AI, see Cawl and his totally-not-AI-honest assistant. Yes, there is a threshold most sane techpriests wouldn't dare to cross but anything under it is fair game, just call it machine spirit and you're good to go (at least until someone higher up won't call you a heretek).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The recent books for the end of 9th included a machine which was actively hiding its AI Nature.

Sure that’s but a single example across the entire Imperium, but it does rather raise the question of what other Machine Spirits might simply being pragmatic, preferring some level of existence over, y’know, getting their digital teeth kicked in.

Actually, this is another example demolishing 'robots are banned' argument because when techpriests saw UR-025, their first thought was 'nice toy, let's grab it' not 'it's a robot, exterminate!'. Then UR-025 plays along for a bit showing such interactions must be common because techpriests were clearly trained for it and followed standard protocol, and only when it identified itself as an actual AI the party instantly wet their pants - ergo, non AI robots must be common.

Then you have Kastelan robots, which are supposedly 'dumb' but some examples show suspiciously AI like behaviour and even that doesn't stop them from being common tool for AM, widely used and very much not banned (Itinerant section below):

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kastelan_Robot

Exactly. They have plenty of what we today would call drones. Robots that are either remote controlled OR are capable of following preprogrammed decision making. Essentially just a big complex set of "If/Then" functions.

They are hideously complex by our modern standards, but are not AIs.