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Finally, as rumoured LI pre-orders go live Nov 18th.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/12/sunday-preview-war-on-an-epic-scale-in-the-age-of-darkness/

I guess now the focus will shift from WHEN to HOW MUCH..?

And also when the WD teased first expansion containing the Core transport units for Astartes (Land Raiders, Spartans, Drop Pods) will come out. Foot slogging Terminators has never been a thing after all. Yes they might Teleport but the game can't be considered a complete release without Land Raider rules imho. A bit sad GW chose this route although not surprised. But distributing core unit rules over several books is not good for gaming I guess in the end GW will compile them in a single book, like with Titanicus, thus selling us the rules at least twice.

Edit: They also added 4 Kratos to the Starter box image, but confirmed in official FB feed that's a mistake..

It’s been confirmed in the N&R thread that the extra Kratos were a picture error and will not be in the starter.

I know it’s cool to be jaded and all, but I’m super pumped for this release. Can’t wait!

Edit: typos

Definitely looking forward to it. So happy I decided to not go for battleforce set this year. My kids have all been sent a list of items to choose to get for my Xmas.
They know I don't play favourites but whoever gets the best item.....

 Fugazi wrote:
It’s been confirmed in the N&R thread that the extra Kratos were a picture error and will not be in the starter.

I know it’s cool to be jaded and all, but I’m super pumped for this release. Can’t wait!

Edit: typos

Bummer. But maybe good for the pricing.

Yeah, looking forward to it too. And it's going to be fun watching the community grow - more painters, more inspiration.

This is the most excited I have been for a GW game in decades, been working on my XVth for a few months now as time allows and look forward to expanding them and getting them on the table (well, and also maybe painting them...). Cant wait to draw up a firm army list after all this time.

Current rumor is 120GBP/155EUR/200USD for the launch box (which is a stock item and not limited edition).

Im hoping the rumor is wrong.

I've lost interest during the delay, and needing to buy a second book for House force rules hasn't raised my spirits much. If the core book is around £35...we'll see.

I'm going in halves with a mate, really hoping that the £120 is accurate as hopefully that will be closer to the £100 point when bought from a retailer.

I already have a pretty large marine force so will be doing the Imperial Army contingent, friend will be doing Legion forces.

Looking forward to the new influx of blood the game will bring into Epic scale. If the prices are monstrous or game itself is a bore-fest we will just go back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon.

Price charts circulating.

Starter box rrp £120, individual unit boxes £30.
Ruins/barrricades/scatter box £45.

That terrain box looks tasty to me.

Yeah, ruin terrain box looks like it gives good value for what it is.

 Pacific wrote:

Looking forward to the new influx of blood the game will bring into Epic scale. If the prices are monstrous or game itself is a bore-fest we will just go back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon.

Can't wait to see what the community does with new models.

Not looking forward to dealing with hundreds of reports on the 6mm group as its a 'gw game' or 'not really 6mm', and people having a stink over the edition wars.

Well gw did go for 8mm scale...

Which funnily enough means titans now are either undersized or retrofitted to be be smaller(warlord 25m instead of 33m)

The At titans were already sculpted in 8mm scale. Whilst Epic appearing wasn't guaranteed, they designed both the AT and AN models to the same 8mm scale to fit with a potential return of Epic.

What Overread said. I think the whole "sculpted so that space marines are 8mm tall" thing might have been some misunderstanding - I haven't been able to find any reference to it on Warcom, which means it either was never there or it got edited out at some point. I seem to recall seeing it myself at one time so I'm thinking it was the victim of an edit, but there is an AT article on Warcom that says directly that they were sculpted at 8mm scale.

8mm scale in general means an average Human is 8mm tall. Genetically enhanced superhumans wearing space boots should then be 9-10mm tall and the new marines seem to be about 9.5mm.

Overall what GW have said is that it will be 1/4 scale of HH. Internal scales will vary just as it does for the big scale with everything scaled down.

But yeah, LI/AI/AT will be in scale with eachother within those variations

Best to not take the scale thing too literally.

.

Telling the difference between infantry at this scale is also a bit tricky. A lot of details will be over-enlarged to compensate for making the models easily identifiable on a game board; for making them practical to play with; and to cast with plastics.

So even between marines and human infantry there won't be a vast height difference. Some yes, but not a night day difference that you see at 28-32mm of regular tabletop wargames.

 Overread wrote:
Telling the difference between infantry at this scale is also a bit tricky. A lot of details will be over-enlarged to compensate for making the models easily identifiable on a game board; for making them practical to play with; and to cast with plastics.

So even between marines and human infantry there won't be a vast height difference. Some yes, but not a night day difference that you see at 28-32mm of regular tabletop wargames.

Yeah, at 6mm that was certainly the case.

It does look like they differentiated a bit more at 8mm. Previews indicate a visible difference between Solar humans and marines.

Scale wise I reckon anything within 2 or even 3mm isn't really noticeable on the tabletop and at arms length. My own stuff is a mix of GW classics, Vanguard (about 8mm-ish for a marine) and some larger 3d printed. I will say the new stuff (certainly infantry) won't mix well with the classic GW 6mm marines just because of the bulk difference, but again thats a subjective thing. I am fairly relaxed with scales, but I know some people break out the micrometer with this sort of thing.

 RexHavoc wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Looking forward to the new influx of blood the game will bring into Epic scale. If the prices are monstrous or game itself is a bore-fest we will just go back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon.

Can't wait to see what the community does with new models.

Not looking forward to dealing with hundreds of reports on the 6mm group as its a 'gw game' or 'not really 6mm', and people having a stink over the edition wars.

So far I think the community groups have been pretty chilled out. Both by the existing members commenting about the new game (mostly just some jokes and nothing genuinely mean-spirited) and the many new members joining, with the 30k epic group in particular which renamed itself as Legions Imperialis 30k within hours of the game being announced and has now swelled to about 3 times it's original size. A couple of the new people have got funny about people posting vanguard or printed minis and having large collections already (including one who, from his profile pic, looks like he is probably serving his majesty's pleasure for GBH), but I think considering they have had 5-6000 new members that is not bad.

 westiebestie wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Telling the difference between infantry at this scale is also a bit tricky. A lot of details will be over-enlarged to compensate for making the models easily identifiable on a game board; for making them practical to play with; and to cast with plastics.

So even between marines and human infantry there won't be a vast height difference. Some yes, but not a night day difference that you see at 28-32mm of regular tabletop wargames.

Yeah, at 6mm that was certainly the case.

It does look like they differentiated a bit more at 8mm. Previews indicate a visible difference between Solar humans and marines.

Yeah but you're talking about a close up photo zoomed in to represent the minis at like 4-5x their actual size. At a tables distance you wont much notice that 1-2mm height difference.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Telling the difference between infantry at this scale is also a bit tricky. A lot of details will be over-enlarged to compensate for making the models easily identifiable on a game board; for making them practical to play with; and to cast with plastics.

So even between marines and human infantry there won't be a vast height difference. Some yes, but not a night day difference that you see at 28-32mm of regular tabletop wargames.

Yeah, at 6mm that was certainly the case.

It does look like they differentiated a bit more at 8mm. Previews indicate a visible difference between Solar humans and marines.

Yeah but you're talking about a close up photo zoomed in to represent the minis at like 4-5x their actual size. At a tables distance you wont much notice that 1-2mm height difference.

Aha, that's what you meant. At table top perspective it all blurs for sure. I mostly see basing when playing.

It's subjective though. I notice the bulk difference enough to make the new solar & Astartes look different next to eachother in zoomed out pics, squinting. So they probably did a good job with relatives scale there. 7-8 & 9-10 is spot on for 8mm scale regardless.

I'm pretty chilled with minor scale variations I should add so would not be a deal breaker for me either way.

chaos0xomega wrote:What Overread said. I think the whole "sculpted so that space marines are 8mm tall" thing might have been some misunderstanding - I haven't been able to find any reference to it on Warcom, which means it either was never there or it got edited out at some point. I seem to recall seeing it myself at one time so I'm thinking it was the victim of an edit, but there is an AT article on Warcom that says directly that they were sculpted at 8mm scale.

I know the reference was made by one of the designers of AT, but it was made a on a facebook post. I'm sure they mention it in one of the videos about making the AT titans, but I dont' recall which one and war com is a mess of articles and bad edits that finding it would be a chore at this point.

I just dont care enough about made up fluff to worry that models are a mm or two bigger. I'll be mixing whatever I like. I just find it amusing that some people get so hung up on it and tried to get the new stuff banned from the 6mm wargames group.

Pacific wrote:Scale wise I reckon anything within 2 or even 3mm isn't really noticeable on the tabletop and at arms length. My own stuff is a mix of GW classics, Vanguard (about 8mm-ish for a marine) and some larger 3d printed. I will say the new stuff (certainly infantry) won't mix well with the classic GW 6mm marines just because of the bulk difference, but again thats a subjective thing. I am fairly relaxed with scales, but I know some people break out the micrometer with this sort of thing.

 RexHavoc wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Looking forward to the new influx of blood the game will bring into Epic scale. If the prices are monstrous or game itself is a bore-fest we will just go back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon.

Can't wait to see what the community does with new models.

Not looking forward to dealing with hundreds of reports on the 6mm group as its a 'gw game' or 'not really 6mm', and people having a stink over the edition wars.

So far I think the community groups have been pretty chilled out. Both by the existing members commenting about the new game (mostly just some jokes and nothing genuinely mean-spirited) and the many new members joining, with the 30k epic group in particular which renamed itself as Legions Imperialis 30k within hours of the game being announced and has now swelled to about 3 times it's original size. A couple of the new people have got funny about people posting vanguard or printed minis and having large collections already (including one who, from his profile pic, looks like he is probably serving his majesty's pleasure for GBH), but I think considering they have had 5-6000 new members that is not bad.

Saw the same thing with the AT "official" "not official" group, with the mods banning people and crying over people using vanguard. I think most of the long-term epic players just moved on from that group and stopped paying them attention. That E30k group changed overnight and started the same rubbish. I guess these groups are desperate for GW to notice them and give them free plastic. Thankfully when GW stop hyping the game and it settles down, we'll go back to people just enjoying small scale warfare and most of the loud mouths will move on to the new hype.

It is great to see a lot of people interested in the scale/new game. Not only does it show GW that people want more in this scale, but it will direct more sales to other 6mm companies as well. It will be noisy for a few months, but then it will settle down into a golden age of small scale 40k again. Even if I'm not excited for the rules, I can't wait to see what GW bring out down the line & what places like vanguard do to supplement the scale!

It's cool that LI is finally happening, but I'm not feeling the relatively costly entry to the game, unless one wants to go with a hardback rulebook and the starter box. The digital version of the rulebook and at least the infantry detachments should be more aggressively priced.

Upside being that the launch box is not going to be a limited run item, so for once, there is no need to let FOMO dictate people's buying decisions.

BTW, any bets on how many minutes it will take for the new Epic scale terrain bundle to sell out?

chaos0xomega wrote:
What Overread said. I think the whole "sculpted so that space marines are 8mm tall" thing might have been some misunderstanding - I haven't been able to find any reference to it on Warcom, which means it either was never there or it got edited out at some point. I seem to recall seeing it myself at one time so I'm thinking it was the victim of an edit, but there is an AT article on Warcom that says directly that they were sculpted at 8mm scale.

It's not a misunderstanding, that's precisely what Andy Hoare said in 2018 when Titanicus released. The WarCom articles, which originally contained videos of this particular designers' interview, then wrote that down as "8 mm scale" and the whole kerfuffle started. The misunderstanding was made by WarCom and then spread like wildfire all over the internet, causing the mess we see today.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter as small stuff is still small stuff regardless of their proportions, but it has been amusing to follow how hung up people have at times gotten over the whole 8 mm mistake as if we didn't regularly, almost every week for years now, see WarCom talk out of their arses on each and every topic they're told to promote. Just look at the Kratos thing right now

Yeah, no. If you compare the new LI minis to the old supposedly "definitely 6mm" minis of old epic, its very transparently clear that the new minis are not sculpted at 6mm scale (as would be required for the arguments that it isn't 8mm scale to hold true), and that they consistently - regardless of whether they are astartes or solar auxilia - sit about 30-40% larger than their older counterparts. Its 8mm scale.

 RexHavoc wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:What Overread said. I think the whole "sculpted so that space marines are 8mm tall" thing might have been some misunderstanding - I haven't been able to find any reference to it on Warcom, which means it either was never there or it got edited out at some point. I seem to recall seeing it myself at one time so I'm thinking it was the victim of an edit, but there is an AT article on Warcom that says directly that they were sculpted at 8mm scale.

I know the reference was made by one of the designers of AT, but it was made a on a facebook post. I'm sure they mention it in one of the videos about making the AT titans, but I dont' recall which one and war com is a mess of articles and bad edits that finding it would be a chore at this point.

I just dont care enough about made up fluff to worry that models are a mm or two bigger. I'll be mixing whatever I like. I just find it amusing that some people get so hung up on it and tried to get the new stuff banned from the 6mm wargames group.

Pacific wrote:Scale wise I reckon anything within 2 or even 3mm isn't really noticeable on the tabletop and at arms length. My own stuff is a mix of GW classics, Vanguard (about 8mm-ish for a marine) and some larger 3d printed. I will say the new stuff (certainly infantry) won't mix well with the classic GW 6mm marines just because of the bulk difference, but again thats a subjective thing. I am fairly relaxed with scales, but I know some people break out the micrometer with this sort of thing.

 RexHavoc wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Looking forward to the new influx of blood the game will bring into Epic scale. If the prices are monstrous or game itself is a bore-fest we will just go back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon.

Can't wait to see what the community does with new models.

Not looking forward to dealing with hundreds of reports on the 6mm group as its a 'gw game' or 'not really 6mm', and people having a stink over the edition wars.

So far I think the community groups have been pretty chilled out. Both by the existing members commenting about the new game (mostly just some jokes and nothing genuinely mean-spirited) and the many new members joining, with the 30k epic group in particular which renamed itself as Legions Imperialis 30k within hours of the game being announced and has now swelled to about 3 times it's original size. A couple of the new people have got funny about people posting vanguard or printed minis and having large collections already (including one who, from his profile pic, looks like he is probably serving his majesty's pleasure for GBH), but I think considering they have had 5-6000 new members that is not bad.

Saw the same thing with the AT "official" "not official" group, with the mods banning people and crying over people using vanguard. I think most of the long-term epic players just moved on from that group and stopped paying them attention. That E30k group changed overnight and started the same rubbish. I guess these groups are desperate for GW to notice them and give them free plastic. Thankfully when GW stop hyping the game and it settles down, we'll go back to people just enjoying small scale warfare and most of the loud mouths will move on to the new hype.

It is great to see a lot of people interested in the scale/new game. Not only does it show GW that people want more in this scale, but it will direct more sales to other 6mm companies as well. It will be noisy for a few months, but then it will settle down into a golden age of small scale 40k again. Even if I'm not excited for the rules, I can't wait to see what GW bring out down the line & what places like vanguard do to supplement the scale!

Don't know what groups you are referencing but I am in both major Epic30k FB groups since before LI was announced and I have not seen any of what you are mentioning. Both 6mm and 8mm posts happen, for example I still post a lot of classic 6mm Epic30k and have gotten 0 bad mouthing and lots of hearts. Some new comers asking how we got our armies, sure, but if anything its's their ignorance that has been made fun of. Vanguard often recommended in posts & comments, never seen anything like that talked negatively about or removed by admins. Oh and the groups arent just renamed to Legions Imperialis, they've added that after Epic30k in the group names.

Are you guys sure you are not overrreacting or letting fears talk..?

There will be continued room for Epic hobbying in 6-8mm with GW models/rules or community rules, Vanguard, 3dprint etc. Sure LI posts will outnumber the rest a while after release but that's logical and probably good. It wont be "us or them".

It's great that we get more hobbyists and players into the Epic setting and yeah I agree I hope this goes well for GW so they keep developing new smaller scale stuff.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. If you compare the new LI minis to the old supposedly "definitely 6mm" minis of old epic, its very transparently clear that the new minis are not sculpted at 6mm scale (as would be required for the arguments that it isn't 8mm scale to hold true), and that they consistently - regardless of whether they are astartes or solar auxilia - sit about 30-40% larger than their older counterparts. Its 8mm scale.

The fundamental hangup here is that X mm isn't a scale to begin with, as much as it is a reference size, but let's roll with that. As a shorthand for regular humans, 6 mm tends to already fluctuate between 1:250 and 1:300 depending on the manufacturer. Older Epic minis have likewise fluctuated a lot over time, as have the 40k models they are to be compared with. Nominally, Epic infantry settled towards 1:300 by the end of the millennium but there were always kits that were out of line and had 1-2 mm over other similar units. Lots of handwaving over there. Nowadays, as GW uses CADs to keep everything more or less on the same reference levels, they can be a bit more serious about consistency. Like they did with AT and AI and the accompanying kits of terrain, AA batteries and such, we know everything is 1/4th of their regular stuff which similarly varies somewhere between 28-30 mm for regular humans. This will be just the same in LI.

Let's look at this picture from WarCom a while back, attached with a grid overlay.

We can see that the old marines (those are not the oldest marines, but 2nd ed bulk nonetheless) are 3:4 compared to the new marines or about a head smaller. I also have lots of those particular old marines in my hand here and the classic bolter boy in a wide power pose measures 6 mm from the feet to the top of their head. The one-third increase in height with the modern marines thus corresponds to 8-9 mm tall models, who also stand straighter and do not have slot-inserts into their bases. This is then the part where understanding what scale means here comes to play: marines are not reference humans. Marines are described in the lore as 7-8 feet tall transhumanistic monsters. They do not represent the standard to which things are measured *but* they are finally sized like marines should be in the lore while the older marine models were not, in Epic nor in 40k. A regular human model, in turn, is then smaller than 8 mm and a model which is somewhere around 7 mm tall is still well within the traditional variance of things that are called 6 mm overall. Personally I prefer "heroic 6 mm" to account for GW proportions being rather buff to begin with

That's the problem with the internet conception of "8 mm". It is, and has been from the onset, nonsense spurred on by WarCom media team talking without understanding what they're talking about.

 Overread wrote:
The At titans were already sculpted in 8mm scale. Whilst Epic appearing wasn't guaranteed, they designed both the AT and AN models to the same 8mm scale to fit with a potential return of Epic.

Except when you measure model it adds up to 33m...in 6mm scale.

Measuring is handy thing.

So for it to be 8mm needs fluff change for titans be smaller. Warlord 25m vs 33m

Guys can you please re-read what I wrote. I said there had been almost no examples of poor behaviour, not that the community has become gakky

There's no poor behaviour in these parts Paz, but there will soon be many poorer people when the launch day comes