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Is there any evidence that Space Marine "Breachers" as they appear in the Horus Heresy Era exist in the 41st Millennia? For that matter, is there a reason other Heresy-Era Space Marine specialist such as the dual-pistol using Destroyers wouldn't be used by chapters in the 41st Millennia?

Breachers do exist - they were part of the Badab War. Most of the specialists were either discontinued after the HH (due to the Codex Astartes, etc.) or ceased because the tech was lost (volkite, phosphex, etc.).

Numbers would be my main thought there.

Destroyers tended to be shunned by most Legions, a necessary evil doled out to Nobby No-Mates, Spotty Kev and Smelly Jim. When you’ve just 1,000 members, you likely don’t have the numbers to spare for their “do or die, but everyone will still say you smell” type missions.

Breachers? I guess they could still exist in 40K, but would be more for ship to ship boarding actions.

beast_gts wrote:
Breachers do exist - they were part of the Badab War. Most of the specialists were either discontinued after the HH (due to the Codex Astartes, etc.) or ceased because the tech was lost (volkite, phosphex, etc.).

Yeah, the original siege shields were released by FW during the Badab war series.

They aren't breachers in the doctrinal sense as a distinct unit type, but essentially the same equipment will be used by Tactical or Assault squads if the mission warrants it, such as ship boarding actions or siege assaults. Apparently some Chapters avoid them (preferring faster-moving troops) but I suspect most keep some in their armouries.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Numbers would be my main thought there.

Destroyers tended to be shunned by most Legions, a necessary evil doled out to Nobby No-Mates, Spotty Kev and Smelly Jim. When you’ve just 1,000 members, you likely don’t have the numbers to spare for their “do or die, but everyone will still say you smell” type missions.

Breachers? I guess they could still exist in 40K, but would be more for ship to ship boarding actions.

Agreed re. Destroyers, Codex Chapters favour generalists over troops that are too specialised, although many 1st and 2nd founding Chapters probably keep a stockpile of the nasty weapons for a rainy day.

That or they go full ham like the Nemesis and just entirely specialise in "Warcrimes".

the three space marines sent with Gaunt's ghosts on the raid to Salvation reach (in the 'salvations reach' novel) brought with them suits of breacher armor, complete with shields. they're referred to as priceless chapter relics only brought out for special missions.

What chapter is Holofurnace from? That naming scheme doesn't stick out as any particular chapter in my mind. Also I ought to read that book.

Aren't those Primaris Bladeguard veterans sort of kind of like Breachers though?

In equipment? Kinda.

Breachers worked on resilience (hence Boardinf Shields and a predilection for MkIII) and numbers. A fist shoved down the narrow throat of shipboard corridors, with plenty of elbow grease in reserve to maintain momentum.


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Also? On Destroyers, keep in mind some of their nastier weapons not only devastated the Marine over time - but their Geneseed.

In an age of Primarchs and relatively easily replaced stocks? You could be a bit more reckless with said Geneseed, sacrificing some because you know the act of doing so is gonna mess up the enemy even more.

But, in these days of few Marines and geneseed prone to spontaneous mutation as it is? I can see that as a risk too far.

Re. Geneseed- you could choose to only assign veteran Marines with destroyer weaponry after their geneseed is already removed. The two progenoids mature at 5 and 10 years and can be surgically removed from a living Marine.

It annoys me that so few Marines have experienced this in Marine fiction, veterans should be safe to deploy from a geneseed perspective and not require much Apothecary oversight compared to younger Marines and Scouts. I am sure some Chapters leave them in due to some traditions and rituals in their Chapter cult, but surely most do the sensible thing to protect their geneseed reserves.

 Haighus wrote:
Re. Geneseed- you could choose to only assign veteran Marines with destroyer weaponry after their geneseed is already removed. The two progenoids mature at 5 and 10 years and can be surgically removed from a living Marine.

It annoys me that so few Marines have experienced this in Marine fiction, veterans should be safe to deploy from a geneseed perspective and not require much Apothecary oversight compared to younger Marines and Scouts. I am sure some Chapters leave them in due to some traditions and rituals in their Chapter cult, but surely most do the sensible thing to protect their geneseed reserves.

In 40k tradition is more important then facts and practicality. From what I recall, all? Chapters feel that the geneseed gets better the longer it remains in the marine, absorbing their skills and prowess. The fact that it’s completely bunk doesn’t mater. Part of the setting.

In 30k I think there was more of a “any price to pay for victory” mindset. Where burning things to the ground, your own forces included, was more acceptable. In 40k every resource is dear. While exterminatus is meme-level common, it’s supposed to be a last resort. Taking a rad-burnt ruins is a phyric victory at best. And chapters can’t afford to burn out a squad of their 1,000 warriors. Or have the bodies to maintain specilist units on a just in case basis.

Which would present another issue.

Yes Geneseed can be harvested from a living Brother, once it’s matured.

Cursory google says that’s a 5 and 10 years. But if as Haighus says there’s a broad tradition of leaving it in place to gather more (whether or not there’s something to that), then your Destroyers, after Geneseed is removed, would likely represent the best of the best of your Chapter. Not exactly battle brothers you want being turned into soupy-muck-muck on the regular.

But overall? I still see Destroyers being too high risk in the modern day - at least outside of “well, we’re all going to die anyway, let’s goop some nasties out of sheer spite” situations.

Even then, it might only be Primogenitor Chapters, which given not all truly embrace Destroyers may greatly reduce the amount of suitable kit and weapons available to deploy them.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Re. Geneseed- you could choose to only assign veteran Marines with destroyer weaponry after their geneseed is already removed. The two progenoids mature at 5 and 10 years and can be surgically removed from a living Marine.

It annoys me that so few Marines have experienced this in Marine fiction, veterans should be safe to deploy from a geneseed perspective and not require much Apothecary oversight compared to younger Marines and Scouts. I am sure some Chapters leave them in due to some traditions and rituals in their Chapter cult, but surely most do the sensible thing to protect their geneseed reserves.

In 40k tradition is more important then facts and practicality. From what I recall, all? Chapters feel that the geneseed gets better the longer it remains in the marine, absorbing their skills and prowess. The fact that it’s completely bunk doesn’t mater. Part of the setting.

In 30k I think there was more of a “any price to pay for victory” mindset. Where burning things to the ground, your own forces included, was more acceptable. In 40k every resource is dear. While exterminatus is meme-level common, it’s supposed to be a last resort. Taking a rad-burnt ruins is a phyric victory at best. And chapters can’t afford to burn out a squad of their 1,000 warriors. Or have the bodies to maintain specilist units on a just in case basis.

That is a fair point, I forgot about that superstition.

Do you remember where that was mentioned? I thought it was from Index Astartes, but cannot find it there.

A quick scan of my red RT Compendium doesn’t show it in the 2 spots I thought it would be (the making of a marine and medic sections)

I know it’s old lore, as I can’t recall a time when I didn’t think this was the case. But would have to go on a deep dive of what’s on the shelf to find the cite. Which I can’t do at the moment.

 Nevelon wrote:
A quick scan of my red RT Compendium doesn’t show it in the 2 spots I thought it would be (the making of a marine and medic sections)

I know it’s old lore, as I can’t recall a time when I didn’t think this was the case. But would have to go on a deep dive of what’s on the shelf to find the cite. Which I can’t do at the moment.

Me neither, maybe later.

My gut is telling me 3rd or 4th edition, but could've appeared earlier and been repeated.

There’s also the fundamental shift in the purpose of Astartes.

During the Great Crusade and Heresy, they were the tip of the Imperial Spear, doing the forefront of the fighting in vast numbers.

Come the modern era? They’re not the hammer they once were, but a surgical device. And their structure reflects that. And it’s why they now focus on rapid deployment against carefully selected targets/vital points in the enemy line. Their presence absolutely can and will shift the dynamic of the war zone. But it still falls to the Imperial Guard to finish the job off properly - Marines are too few and too thinly spread to stick around longer than is absolutely necessary (which will of course depend on the scale of the conflict)

Consider the art of breaking a Waaagh!

During the Crusade period? The Astartes would grind down Orky forces on their own, albeit with support of other elements of the Crusade forces.

Now? They’re more aimed at taking out the Warboss and his mates, breaking Orky cohesion. Now, against a relatively nascent Waagh! that might be all it takes. One good wallop and let the Guard roll them up.

Against more established Waaaghs!, there’s wisdom in them sticking about to do the same should any replacement Warboss start gathering broad support. Rinse and repeat a few times and that’s Orky Cohesion done for the time being, and the Marines can be on their way.

Destroyers again just don’t really have a role to play in that sort of force.

Destroyers would still make sense in M41 for the Traitors, though. Would actually be a nice lil thing to further give distinction to CSM vs SM IMHO

Honestly, you could easily remove some of the nasty weapons from Destroyers and still field them effectively in all likelyhood. Possibly in place of assault marines, having dudes with two pistols, jump packs, chainswords and light special weapons. Sure, they would probably be closer to SOB's Serpahim, but it could work without the nasties of radiation warfare. There are plenty of other esoteric weaponry that could be given to them.

As for breachers... the shield is just a slab of ceramite, right? barring any fancy shield generators, I don't see why you need a specialized breacher team when you can just give tactical marines a riot shield and send them into an enemy ship. Probably don't need all of them equipped either, just give the lead ones a shield and the rest have mobile cover.

 Haighus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
A quick scan of my red RT Compendium doesn’t show it in the 2 spots I thought it would be (the making of a marine and medic sections)

I know it’s old lore, as I can’t recall a time when I didn’t think this was the case. But would have to go on a deep dive of what’s on the shelf to find the cite. Which I can’t do at the moment.

Me neither, maybe later.

My gut is telling me 3rd or 4th edition, but could've appeared earlier and been repeated.

It’s definitely in the old IA:Rites of Initiation article that first appeared in 3rd Ed. It mentions when the two progenoids can be removed then says at least one is usually left past then.

For Breachers it’s likely as much specific training as equipment.

Moving in lockstep as a shield wall isn’t exactly easy, especially when you may encounter a branching or intersecting passageway at any point. And if you can’t do that? You’re not making the best use of your Boarding Shield and the opportunities it brings.

I also find myself asking how necessary they are in the modern 40K era.

Boarding actions and tunnel fights are of course still dangerous. But are Marines likely to face a great many weapons where the extra protection of a Boarding Shield exceeds speed and mobility?

If we look at Naval Breachers and broadly assume some kind of analogous unit in most species arsenal? A fully armoured Marine freight training it still gonna break a lot of such formations. And the typically tight confines will help reduce the concentration of incoming fire, as only so many guns can be pointed down a given corridor with any expectation of effectiveness. Add in said weapons not being especially armour penetrating for good reason (oh no, my own hull!), it could be the Boarding Shield is seen as largely obsolete. Perhaps compounded by Marines, by preference, going straight for the really hurty bits, like your Engines, Magazine, Bridge and Warp Engine, as they have such reduced numbers.

I mean the option is clearly still necessary given that 90% of the Badab War was Astartes boarding each other's ships and beating the snot out of each other.

It's just not something that will be common and seeing as FW is now entirely specialist-only, 40k Breachers are pretty dead.

Of course, not being standard doctrine (for Breachers not least because Terminators Just Do It Better) doesn’t mean never used. Just….not used often enough to really be known. And the game of 40K as we know is the Broad Stroke approach to the background, not reflecting the “ifs, buts, excepts, unless” etc.

Certainly for countering boarding parties, the shield could come in handy as you stand to be able to shut off and open up pressure doors, and do a bit of kettling.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
A quick scan of my red RT Compendium doesn’t show it in the 2 spots I thought it would be (the making of a marine and medic sections)

I know it’s old lore, as I can’t recall a time when I didn’t think this was the case. But would have to go on a deep dive of what’s on the shelf to find the cite. Which I can’t do at the moment.

Me neither, maybe later.

My gut is telling me 3rd or 4th edition, but could've appeared earlier and been repeated.

It’s definitely in the old IA:Rites of Initiation article that first appeared in 3rd Ed. It mentions when the two progenoids can be removed then says at least one is usually left past then.

Did they edit the IA article between White Dwarf and the IA1 compilation? This is the text from IA1 and it doesn't mention about progenoids being left in:



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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of course, not being standard doctrine (for Breachers not least because Terminators Just Do It Better) doesn’t mean never used. Just….not used often enough to really be known. And the game of 40K as we know is the Broad Stroke approach to the background, not reflecting the “ifs, buts, excepts, unless” etc.

Certainly for countering boarding parties, the shield could come in handy as you stand to be able to shut off and open up pressure doors, and do a bit of kettling.

Again, the breaching shields started out as a 40k unit. Not a specialist unit, but tactical squads equipped with special-issue gear for siege and/or boarding assaults.

Here is the original FW entry from the Siege Assault Vanguard army list in Imperial Armour Volume 10, the Badab War part 2:

I've included the lore for the Assault squad unit too- these could be equipped with all combat shields instead of siege mantlets for a more mobile, lightweight alternative that still provided additional protection. Essentially big shields for shooty Tacticals and little shields for choppy Assault marines.

It also explicitly notes that siege mantlets are a cheap Terminator alternative if you don't have enough TDA.

Here is the original kit, released before the Horus Heresy game was started by Forge World:

Note how the armour is MkVII pattern.

So they've had both 40k rules and models, but it is for breaching equipment, not breacher units. The former definitely still exists in 40k, the latter does not (in Codex Chapters, they might exist in non-standard Chapters).

I should try some Palanite Subjugator shield 'bashes out, just to see how a Beakie Breacher could look like.. Anyone have picts of subjugator shield marine kitbashes?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cursory google says that’s a 5 and 10 years. But if as Haighus says there’s a broad tradition of leaving it in place to gather more (whether or not there’s something to that), then your Destroyers, after Geneseed is removed, would likely represent the best of the best of your Chapter. Not exactly battle brothers you want being turned into soupy-muck-muck on the regular.

I always found that part of setting dumb, to be honest. If your veteran is hit with say plasma or melta to the chest, the geneseed is toast anyway. You can't exactly harvest vaporized tissue. Hell, now that I think about it, virtually any weapon likely to kill SM outright will wreck their corpse too, doubly so with really stupid damage inflation xenos weapons had in last 2-3 editions. If the part of your corpse that will be needed after your death is gone with your death, then you'd think standard operation procedure in SM chapter would be to remove it as soon as possible, not leave it to die pointlessly.

The progenoid gland in neck is even worse, because squatmarines have zero protection there. Even a lasgun can cook it rendering it useless. Only with primaris Mk X (and older, rare Mk VIII I guess) that priceless organ is protected in any way, shape or form - again, you'd expect the chapters to be welding gorgets on any suit they have, but nooo, this is apparently too logical idea for 40K. This is even sillier with Terminators where it's the only badly protected part of the marine - for no reason, too, given the fact earlier Cataphractii and Tartaros suits both had gorgets, go figure

The only way to reconcile fluff with minis is to assume Emperor wasn't an idiot and simply retcon geneseed to be renewable resource - as soon as it is removed, new one starts growing in its place, neatly sidestepping the issue with SM losses and any problems with recruitment they might have (and also losses such as tithes to Terra, which open a whole new can of worms - if you believe the geneseed to get better with 'stay' in the marine, then you'd be essentially discarding holy pieces of legendary heroes that can no longer be passed on, making the audience question how anyone in superstitious M41 would agree to this without a fight, unless again, this resource is somehow renewable)...

 Iron_Hands_Fan wrote:
What chapter is Holofurnace from? That naming scheme doesn't stick out as any particular chapter in my mind. Also I ought to read that book.

Iron Snakes. he's also one of the main characters in the Urdesh duology of novels, and shows up again in "Anarch".

the three marines that were sent were:
Brother-Sergeant Eadwine, Silver Guard Chapter
Brother Sar Af, White Scars Chapter
Brother Kater Holofurnace, Iron Snakes Chapter


given the heavy greek theming of the iron snakes (including their homeworld name of ithika) i get the feeling that the last name is meant to be pronounced 'ho-lo-fur-nah-see' or the like.

Marines are shown with both their progenoids already removed in a BL story by Gav Thorp, Call of the Lion, and one by Laurie Goulding, Slaughter at Giant's Coffin. Most brothers in the battle companies and even reserve companies should have no progenoid remaining. Both stories describe it as a routine procedure scheduled by the apothecaries well before marines reach seniority.

The idea of a progenoid being left on purpose is a persistent horse apple from forums. It's probably from a desire to justify all the promotional scenes of an Apothecary using his gimmick. That can mostly be attributed to the promotional nature of all these vignettes, where clearly the battlefield extraction is a sensational image.

There do appear to be very high casualty rates among young marines, for example the archetypal career of brother Pollandus, whose squads are nearly wiped out when he's in the ninth and sixth companies. For that reason there could easily be many battlefield extractions of young battlebrothers.

If someone's writing about marines, battlefield extraction is a tool available to the author. There's no compulsion to insert it for the sake of "lore" accuracy. It's just there if you need it.


Brother Holofurnace's name is modeled on a biblical character named Holofernys. The slaying the Assyrian general holofernys is a popular topic for painting and opera. See this picture http://www.unm.edu/~suznews/AH101/slidelist3/img7.jpg

 pelicaniforce wrote:
The idea of a progenoid being left on purpose is a persistent horse apple from forums. It's probably from a desire to justify all the promotional scenes of an Apothecary using his gimmick. That can mostly be attributed to the promotional nature of all these vignettes, where clearly the battlefield extraction is a sensational image.

Oh really? Try to explain this excerpt then: https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/jt0gzp/

On one hand, it's Phil Kelly book, so of below fanfiction quality. On the other hand, GW placed Kelly in charge of the Warhammer lore so this is as canon as it gets. Then there are multiple Apothecary models clearly in the middle of extraction procedure. Why would they do that if the sensible thing (early removal) was done ASAP?

Speaking of geneseed removal, it's another utterly idiotic bit of 40K lore. You'd expect Apothecary to have some sort of master key that can unlock the SM front plate, or at worst something like emergency belt cutter knife carried by rescue services to cut the straps holding front plate on to do the surgery. But nooo, he has a frakking drill, that is used to ruin the set of armor (but magically doesnt damage fragile organ behind said armor despite said drill being tapered, not cylindrical, meaning it has to go in really deep to make sizable hole). And yet, you have relic suits of armor 10K years old everywhere without dozens of holes marking past procedures. Oh, and that magical armor piercing drill somehow virtually never shows up in tabletop statline (despite user medical knowledge making it extra deadly) and most of the time Apothecary has to use his fists or something silly like that in combat. Go figure

I still stand by my, unsupported, speculation there’s seemingly little preventing a Marine, post geneseed extraction, having a new, nascent organ implanted, so over their lifetime each Marine can keep being harvested.

I mean, the Progenoid Gland is the second to last implant, with only the Black Carapace going in after. So whatever gene therapy and biological kickstarting goes on? Is surely still in place and keeping the rest in harmony and working order. And whatever it is it’s actually gathering is still there in the Marine’s system, going to arguable waste.

Maybe I’ll ask Grombrindal that one. Mostly because in a background as permissive as 40K, I don’t think there are any sources which exclude that action? I am of course always happy to be better informed, ideally with citation for future reading pleasure

 Irbis wrote:
Then there are multiple Apothecary models clearly in the middle of extraction procedure.

Examples, please? I don't recall a single one, off the top of my head - maybe one in a diorama, but that's about it.