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I'm trying to research different armies.for 40K (and Horus Heresy, the game for people with 401Ks), and I'm noticing that GW sells a lot of beautiful flyers, but no one seems to use them in regular games.

Why is this?

40K - Flyers aren't great this edition.
30K - The models are resin & too expensive to buy.

Because (at least in 40k) most players don't like the rules for AIRCRAFT. And to some degree pts costs.

Now if a flyer also has the option to HOVER? It's odds of seeing play go up.
For example: Stormraven.

Aircraft aren't very strong this edition. The combination of forced reserves, predictable movement and relative fragility on generally overcosted models just isn't very appealing.

I think about the only Aircraft being used as such in high level play this edition might be the Dark Eldar Voidraven.

For the most part flyers are a recent addition to the game. Bolted on to the core rules with 6th edition, and never really smoothly integrating with them.

Yes, I know I’m referring to an edition 4 back as “recently”

Flyers are also not a core part of the identity for a lot of armies, even those that have them. 40k is thematically about boots on the ground and armor and the like. Fast moving flyers might be something that army, but rarely feel like they are part of it. Sure, you might have transports to get you there, but the grunts with the guns are why we are here.

(exceptions do exist, like scion air-cav, or elision drop troops)

A lot of us older players picked up a flyer or 3 back in the day, as the rules kinda required you to have some sort of air cover, or you were in for a rough time vs. an opponent who did. But speaking for myself at least, it was alway a supplementary unit. So when the rules shifted to it being not mandatory for a competitive list, they mostly just stayed on the shelf.

I’m not a big fan of Flyers, because I just don’t think they fit the scale of the game.

Even in larger Heresy games, I feel they break immersion as the demands of the gaming board prevent them operating in a satisfying manner.

Now their original incarnation, via FW rules, had them do bombing/strafing runs. I can’t remember the nitty gritty, but it was something like choose a point on your board edge, and a direction. Measure a straight line so it exits the board on another board edge. This line determines its flight path, and which units it might attack.

That was a better abstraction - but rather called into question the purpose of spending lots of money on an expensive resin kit, when a suitable marker (free with your Cornflakes ) achieved exactly the same job.

So they’re a no from me. Despite the Xiphon being a very nicely designed toy. And one I might yet buy if it crosses the Rubicon Plasticarus.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not a big fan of Flyers, because I just don’t think they fit the scale of the game.

Even in larger Heresy games, I feel they break immersion as the demands of the gaming board prevent them operating in a satisfying manner.

Now their original incarnation, via FW rules, had them do bombing/strafing runs. I can’t remember the nitty gritty, but it was something like choose a point on your board edge, and a direction. Measure a straight line so it exits the board on another board edge. This line determines its flight path, and which units it might attack.

As well as wich units could effectively attack it back as it flew over.
(Flyers entered/moved/exited etc during the oppopponents turn)

I think they just tend to look out of place and are generally not as interactable as other models. That said the Eldar D-weapon one sure made many appearances during its heyday. The Helldrake too on its intro.

Ever since flyers got their own rules, rather than just being treated like skimmers, they've either been useless or broken. There hasn't been a lot of middle ground. I think that's because they don't really fit the scale of 40k properly.

We've had oppressive flyers you could only hit on 6s, then we have the start of 8th where they could hold objectives and people were using Guilliman to get massive amounts of rerolls on them. Then Eldar had armies with 7 -2 to hit planes that also took up a stupid amount of the board. Then Ork and Ad Mech flyers broke the game because they were too cheap and far too shooty. Now we have a situation where there are a load of restrictions on using flyers, starting them in reserves, etc. That means they are usually too expensive to justify.

Flyers should probably just be removed at this point, TBH. In 2nd edition you could get a strafing run strategy card that simulated an attack run by an aircraft, and the Speed Freeks list from 3rd edition had a Fighta-Bomma "unit" that was literally just an off-board big shoota attack. Even Epic doesn't have aircraft remaining on the board. They come in, do they're thing, then leave again in the same activation.

This has been kinda depressing, as there are a lot if cool flyer models (except for the Deathwatch Corvis Blackstar who was ruined by my mum, when she saw the picture online and said, "oh look a sea turtle." Now thats all i see now too.)

Oh well, I guess I can focus my attention from the skies and back to golden army men and big stompy robots.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
This has been kinda depressing, as there are a lot if cool flyer models (except for the Deathwatch Corvis Blackstar who was ruined by my mum, when she saw the picture online and said, "oh look a sea turtle." Now thats all i see now too.)

Oh well, I guess I can focus my attention from the skies and back to golden army men and big stompy robots.

Don’t let mediocre rules or other people’s opinions stop you from doing what you want.

Unless you are playing at the top tables in tournaments, there is room in your list for a little fun. So take the units you enjoy. You might need to shore up other spots in your list to cover their weaknesses, but that’s doable.

Rules come in go. Build an army that sparks joy.

The pendulum will probably swing the other way in an edition or two, so if there is a flyer you like give it a try.

Otherwise, this edition in general is not a good time for flyers - over costed, under armoured and under armed compared to comparable tanks (Gladiators are better than Storm Talons, Land Raiders are better than Storm Ravens).

The best flyers in 10th (rules wise) are either those with hover, or anything with a big gun on it as it's always fun to have a big gun safe in reserves.

Lol@ sea turtle. That's funny, because I think the Blackstar is one of the better looking flyers.

I like the eldar ones. The stormhawk has grown on me since I changed my POV. It’s not a fighter jet, but an attack helicopter. And not a fancy one either, but something more akin to a cold-war era chunk of Soviet steel.

I modified my stormraven to have a better profile. That brick has a lot of issues out of the box.

Slipspace wrote:Ever since flyers got their own rules, rather than just being treated like skimmers, they've either been useless or broken. There hasn't been a lot of middle ground. I think that's because they don't really fit the scale of 40k properly.

We've had oppressive flyers you could only hit on 6s, then we have the start of 8th where they could hold objectives and people were using Guilliman to get massive amounts of rerolls on them. Then Eldar had armies with 7 -2 to hit planes that also took up a stupid amount of the board. Then Ork and Ad Mech flyers broke the game because they were too cheap and far too shooty. Now we have a situation where there are a load of restrictions on using flyers, starting them in reserves, etc. That means they are usually too expensive to justify.

Flyers should probably just be removed at this point, TBH. In 2nd edition you could get a strafing run strategy card that simulated an attack run by an aircraft, and the Speed Freeks list from 3rd edition had a Fighta-Bomma "unit" that was literally just an off-board big shoota attack. Even Epic doesn't have aircraft remaining on the board. They come in, do they're thing, then leave again in the same activation.

Flyers in 3rd-5th, via Imperial Armour, worked like they do in Epic- appear on the board edge, fly across and shoot along the way, maybe come back next turn. IIRC there were rules for AA fire, and later an addition so that interceptors could engage other aircraft.

That's really the extent of how flyers ought to be represented at the scale of 40K, but then people complain that the model is kind of a waste and it might as well be a token or card.

Related: Anyone remember using a BFG model to represent your orbital asset in Epic Armageddon?

Flyers were awesome and then they werent. I still have a full Elysian air assault guard army complete with Valks, Vultures, Venators, dune buggies of both varieties, drop sentinels and of course, lots of expensive resin troops. Much of which is not usable now. Even when it was useful, it was still very much a 50/50 army at the best of times, no matter the edition, it either did really well or did really bad.

Now they have nerfed aircraft to the point of uselessness. Theres very little point in using them. They cant fly and then switch to hover mode. If they are in hover mode, apparently hover mode means they are hovering a foot off the ground and not at tree top or several hundred feet up so Joe Shmoe with a sword can hit them. If they fly, they dont appear until turn two and even then only on your board edge. They are in a wait until GW pulls its head out of its 4th point of contact and hope 11th makes them usable again kind of situation.

I dont use them in 30k because Intercept is a thing that many common units can use effectively.

I loved my stormtrooper army mounted in Valks...

Auspex just made a video on this today here

As someone that used an aircav army in 7th I'm not very happy at all =(

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Auspex just made a video on this today here

As someone that used an aircav army in 7th I'm not very happy at all =(

You're missing an edition and that actually cared about realism and lore whilst playing an edition only concerned with mimicking MTG and catering to tournament try hards. What did you expect?

Yeah, I've decided to save my cash on HH flyers for now.

(Especially when I realized I could almost afford a titan... except for two slight oversights that push the price range out of sight....arms.)

I'll just stick to flying tanks.

The way flyers move, I feel the downsizing of tables hurt them A LOT. In older editions the slightly larger 48x72 inch tables just gave more room for mandatory movement.

Flyers lost a great deal of firepower when twin linked went to reroll wounds.

I love my Stormtalon (I have 2, used to have 4!) but 165 points for a t8 10 wound platform with a twin linked assault Cannon and a typhoon missile Launcher is ridiculous.