When and why did Space Marine Scouts 'lose' the ability to carry autocannons?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Haighus**

The option was in the 3rd edition codex but disappeared in 4th edition. No idea why, but maybe to differentiate a bit from Chaos Space Marines as autocannons on infantry being their thing. As far as I am aware, they never made a model for them.

Insignium Astartes was originally printed in 3rd edition, so it follows that paradigm.

In lore, there is no reason some Scout units wouldn't use autocannons, but it is presumably a very rare loadout.

**Haighus**

Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

**Haighus**

BanjoJohn wrote:
I remember memorizing everything in the 3rd edition space marine codex. Yes the autocannon was an option, the only reason why it was dropped is because they never made a model for it.

The reason why this option was available in the 3rd edition codex was because it was an option in the 2nd edition codex ultramarines, one scout in the squad could take a heavy weapon, which includes: autocannon, heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher, multi-melta, heavy plasma gun.

I would imagine the reason why they never made a model for it, and for other options, was because they wanted to differentiate scouts from power armor marines. But also because they used to actively encourage conversions of models in order to represent all the options, instead of having all of the options available right from the kit.

For instance, tactical squads could also take an autocannon in 2nd edition, but not in 3rd.
Scout squads could choose a special weapon in 2nd edition instead of a heavy weapon, so they could have taken a flamer, meltagun, or plasma gun.

I was thinking the option might have been removed due to no model... but it doesn't really track because there was also no model for a scout with missile launcher in 3rd edition. That model was released in 2004 alongside the 4th edition Marine codex. They could've kept the option and released a model with autocannon too, but chose not to.

**Haighus**

Hellebore wrote:
Haighus wrote:
Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

I think that's supposed to be a heavy stubber, which has a profile like a bolter.

Autocannons are basically ww2 tank turret guns in scale.

It would be a pretty chunky heavy stubber, firing 20mm cannon rounds (~.79 calibre) with a ten-round mag. Heavy stubbers are shown more like machine guns. But I meant a scaled-up version comparable to Marine sizing given they can probably tolerate a more powerful gun. Autocannon are comparable to lascannon and plasma cannon so I don't see why a Marine couldn't fire them from the shoulder.

The comparison to 20thC tank guns is from Rogue Trader and very woolly, given that could mean anything from the Bradley IFV, to the Renault FT-17, KV-2, Panzer I, or M1 Abrams. That encompasses a range of cannon calibres from 20mm to 152mm in just those 5. However, aesthetically 40k autocannon are clearly modelled on real-world rapid-fire autocannons, which tend to be in the 20mm-40mm range outside of warships.

**Haighus**

Hellebore wrote:
I'm thinking partly because the predator's turret was an ordinary autocannon up till 5th ed iirc.

Given that bolters are 75 cal (or 998 if the game space marine is accurate), i would expect an autocannon to have a larger calibre than that.

The Predator Destructor is very clearly inspired by a Bradley IFV in my opinion, so a medium calibre makes sense. But autocannon models cover a fairly wide range from shoulder-carried CSM Havoc autocannons through tripod and small carriage mounted to tank weapons like the Predator and Leman Russ Exterminator turret weapons.

Calibre alone isn't a great indication of power. The Sol Militaris pattern heavy bolter used from the early Great Crusade (the shoulder mounted heavy bolter) fires a .70 calibre bolt*, yet is more powerful than the typical .75 calibre bolts in standard boltguns.

However, the specific calibre isn't the point. The aesthetic of a honking great automatic rifle fired from the shoulder is the idea. Size it up 50% to 30mm and it fits right in IMO. I'm tempted to convert a scout using one but crafting a bullpup is a real pain. Might just plump for the Mad Robot chem troopers autocannon as that is pretty close.

*Lexicanum says .75, but is wrong. The original source (HH book 1 Betrayal) states .70 calibre.

**Haighus**

Hellebore wrote:
Yeah the illustration from the 2nd ed wargear book for an autocannon was of that chaos weapon.

Which looks like the modern design for heavy stubbers more or less. Although the heavy stubber from 2nd ed is an ork shoulder mounted one with top cylinder ammo and a similarly perforated barrel.

It describes the heavy stubber as similar to 20th century heavy machine gun that fires heavy weight bullets, whatever definition that heavy weight is.

The difference in stats between the two is also quite marked - Autocannons being S8 Damage D6 and ASM-3, while a heavy stubber was S4 D1 ASM-1 (basically a longer ranged bolter with sustained fire).

From 3rd onward they became S7 AP4 and S4 AP6 for quite a while. The heavy stubber has retained its S4 profile even today.

Heavy stubbers and autocannons do look fairly similar in many cases.

Here is a picture of 3 autocannons and 2 stubbers:

**Haighus**

insaniak wrote:
Part of the problem is that while GW generally have a distinctive feature for their weapons - autocannons generally have the distinctive, cross-lined muzzle - there's no specific look that has been nailed down for heavy stubbers.

And also that autocannons come in such a broad range of sizes.

Yep. Plus we have more unusual variants to throw a spanner in, like the Lucius pattern autocannon and stubber muzzles used by the DKoK:

Or the Gryphonne autocannon:

Or the Mars autocannon (which looks like a lascannon...):

Thinking about it, the now distinctive autocannon muzzle didn't appear till the end of 3rd. This was the 2nd edition autocannon: