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I vaguely remember Space Marine Scouts being able to do so in 3rd edition i think, and Insignium Astartes (the reprint from 2010 i think) states it as a option, but does anyone remember exactly when this was dropped (i defs remember it not being a thing by 5th)? and was there ever a lore reason given for them having autocannons as an wargear option, and then subsequently losing autocannons?

A Scout Squad comprises a Scout Sergeant and up to nine other ranks or Battle-Brothers. These warriors are armed with a variety of different weapons. Bolt guns, sniper rifles, combat shotguns are all commonly employed but the most favoured armament is a bolt pistol and knife combination. Sergeants invariably carry a chainsword, almost as much a badge of rank as a weapon.

Scout Squads also have access to a number of different heavy weapons and one of the Scouts within the Squad may be armed with a Heavy Bolter, Autocannon or Missile Launcher. These are normally only used if the mission requires it. In most circumstances and missions the Scouts prefer to sacrifice firepower for stealth and speed.

The option was in the 3rd edition codex but disappeared in 4th edition. No idea why, but maybe to differentiate a bit from Chaos Space Marines as autocannons on infantry being their thing. As far as I am aware, they never made a model for them.

Insignium Astartes was originally printed in 3rd edition, so it follows that paradigm.

In lore, there is no reason some Scout units wouldn't use autocannons, but it is presumably a very rare loadout.

You know I never even noticed that they had access to Autocannons in 3rd. But I just checked the 2nd ed codex, and they had access to the generic Space Marine Heavy Weapons list, meaning they could have Multimeltas, Lascannons, and Plasma Cannons too.

Presumably an autocannon would be useful in so far as the ammunition is probably easier to come by if you're operating behind enemy lines than hellfire shells for your heavy bolter...

Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Presumably an autocannon would be useful in so far as the ammunition is probably easier to come by if you're operating behind enemy lines than hellfire shells for your heavy bolter...

Depends on the calibre and that. Autocannon isn’t a specific make and model, but a catch-all term for weapons with similar characteristics and battlefield applications.

So one Autocannon might achieve that role through sheer brute force, others with fancier ammo and smaller individual rounds.

 Haighus wrote:
Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

I did convert a heavy bolter Scout into an autocannon one - and I think I finished the build not long before the change that removed the option.

Might see if I can find where he's ended up.

I remember memorizing everything in the 3rd edition space marine codex. Yes the autocannon was an option, the only reason why it was dropped is because they never made a model for it.

The reason why this option was available in the 3rd edition codex was because it was an option in the 2nd edition codex ultramarines, one scout in the squad could take a heavy weapon, which includes: autocannon, heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher, multi-melta, heavy plasma gun.

I would imagine the reason why they never made a model for it, and for other options, was because they wanted to differentiate scouts from power armor marines. But also because they used to actively encourage conversions of models in order to represent all the options, instead of having all of the options available right from the kit.

For instance, tactical squads could also take an autocannon in 2nd edition, but not in 3rd.
Scout squads could choose a special weapon in 2nd edition instead of a heavy weapon, so they could have taken a flamer, meltagun, or plasma gun.

Heck, I remember when storm troopers had autocannons. I think they saw both units as needing weapons that were quicker to move with and redeploy.

BanjoJohn wrote:
I remember memorizing everything in the 3rd edition space marine codex. Yes the autocannon was an option, the only reason why it was dropped is because they never made a model for it.

The reason why this option was available in the 3rd edition codex was because it was an option in the 2nd edition codex ultramarines, one scout in the squad could take a heavy weapon, which includes: autocannon, heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher, multi-melta, heavy plasma gun.

I would imagine the reason why they never made a model for it, and for other options, was because they wanted to differentiate scouts from power armor marines. But also because they used to actively encourage conversions of models in order to represent all the options, instead of having all of the options available right from the kit.

For instance, tactical squads could also take an autocannon in 2nd edition, but not in 3rd.
Scout squads could choose a special weapon in 2nd edition instead of a heavy weapon, so they could have taken a flamer, meltagun, or plasma gun.

I was thinking the option might have been removed due to no model... but it doesn't really track because there was also no model for a scout with missile launcher in 3rd edition. That model was released in 2004 alongside the 4th edition Marine codex. They could've kept the option and released a model with autocannon too, but chose not to.

 Haighus wrote:
Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

I think that's supposed to be a heavy stubber, which has a profile like a bolter.

Autocannons are basically ww2 tank turret guns in scale.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Shame we never got a model really, could've had a really cool design based on some of the crazy WWII era anti-tank rifles like the 20mm Solothurn. A scoped autocannon rifle definitely seems like something that SM scouts would use.

I think that's supposed to be a heavy stubber, which has a profile like a bolter.

Autocannons are basically ww2 tank turret guns in scale.

It would be a pretty chunky heavy stubber, firing 20mm cannon rounds (~.79 calibre) with a ten-round mag. Heavy stubbers are shown more like machine guns. But I meant a scaled-up version comparable to Marine sizing given they can probably tolerate a more powerful gun. Autocannon are comparable to lascannon and plasma cannon so I don't see why a Marine couldn't fire them from the shoulder.

The comparison to 20thC tank guns is from Rogue Trader and very woolly, given that could mean anything from the Bradley IFV, to the Renault FT-17, KV-2, Panzer I, or M1 Abrams. That encompasses a range of cannon calibres from 20mm to 152mm in just those 5. However, aesthetically 40k autocannon are clearly modelled on real-world rapid-fire autocannons, which tend to be in the 20mm-40mm range outside of warships.

I'm thinking partly because the predator's turret was an ordinary autocannon up till 5th ed iirc.

Given that bolters are 75 cal (or 998 if the game space marine is accurate), i would expect an autocannon to have a larger calibre than that.

 Hellebore wrote:
I'm thinking partly because the predator's turret was an ordinary autocannon up till 5th ed iirc.

Given that bolters are 75 cal (or 998 if the game space marine is accurate), i would expect an autocannon to have a larger calibre than that.

The Predator Destructor is very clearly inspired by a Bradley IFV in my opinion, so a medium calibre makes sense. But autocannon models cover a fairly wide range from shoulder-carried CSM Havoc autocannons through tripod and small carriage mounted to tank weapons like the Predator and Leman Russ Exterminator turret weapons.

Calibre alone isn't a great indication of power. The Sol Militaris pattern heavy bolter used from the early Great Crusade (the shoulder mounted heavy bolter) fires a .70 calibre bolt*, yet is more powerful than the typical .75 calibre bolts in standard boltguns.

However, the specific calibre isn't the point. The aesthetic of a honking great automatic rifle fired from the shoulder is the idea. Size it up 50% to 30mm and it fits right in IMO. I'm tempted to convert a scout using one but crafting a bullpup is a real pain. Might just plump for the Mad Robot chem troopers autocannon as that is pretty close.


*Lexicanum says .75, but is wrong. The original source (HH book 1 Betrayal) states .70 calibre.

 Haighus wrote:

I was thinking the option might have been removed due to no model... but it doesn't really track because there was also no model for a scout with missile launcher in 3rd edition. That model was released in 2004 alongside the 4th edition Marine codex. They could've kept the option and released a model with autocannon too, but chose not to.

Yeah, it was well before the era of 'no model, no rules'... I'm fairly sure the devs addressed it at the time, and the removal of the autocannon was purely for flavour. Autocannons were removed from regular marines for 3rd ed as they felt that the heavy bolter was a more appropriate choice, but left for scouts as they weren't real marines yet. Then for 4th, they decided that too felt like a bit of an oddity, so removed it completely.

If it hadn't been the standard turret weapon since the inception of the kit, I suspect that the Predator's autocannon would have gone away at some point as well, but instead they chose to just keep autocannons for marines as a vehicle option, but with troops using heavy bolters instead.

Let me grab me books, and quote the relevant descriptors from 1st and 2nd Ed (there may be two for 1st Ed. Rulebook and Battle Manual)

Rogue Trader, pp 82

Auto-cannon Auto-cannon are similar in concept to twentieth century tank guns. They are rapid firing and use mass-reactive ammunition. They are mostly vehicle mounted due to their great weight*

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Manual, pp 56

Auto-cannon Auto-cannon are automatic, self loading cannon firing a high-velocity hail of solid shells. The are rapid firing weapons which can lay down a burst of fire to cover advancing troops, or strafe enemy-held positions. These weapons are considered ideally suited for attacking enemy vehicles and fortifications from long ranges.

Autocannon are popular weapons in the Imperial forces, but are also common amongst Orks, who especially enjoy the blaze of shells and mind-numbing recoil!

Warhammer 40,000 Wargear (2nd Edition pack-in volume

Identical to the entry in the 1st Ed Battle Manual entry.

*Note that at this point, Battlecannon didn’t exist. And I’d argue that weapon is a closer match to the description. In fact….

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Manual, pp 57

Battlecannon The battle cannon is an especially large version of the auto-cannon which fired an even bigger shells and is correspondingly more powerful. Although the Battlecannon is far too large to carry, and is basically a weapon which can only be mounted on a vehicle, we have included it here for the sake of completeness. Battlecannon are featured in many of the special modelling conversions described in White Dwarf, and form the main armament for vehicles such as the Imperial Baneblade and the Ork Gobsmasha.

How does that compare to its 2nd Ed description? Again, completely identical.

This change is further demonstrated by the original plastic Chaos Autocannon. That was a long, thin weapon, with a box ammo hopper showing shells of quite a modest calibre. And I think Space Hulk (where I first used them on Genestealer Hybrids) described them as battering through enemy armour by sheer volume? I don’t yet have the classic Space Hulk rules, so I can’t confirm. But given that memory is well over 30 years old, let’s assume I’m wrong!



Had to visit BoLS to get the pic, so I’m feeling pretty soiled right now.

Coulda just gone to Stuff of Legends, Doc - http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap112plastics-00.htm

I could, but for some reason I always forget that website exists.

But hey ho, already had the cleansing and surprisingly refreshing dip in acid,

Yeah the illustration from the 2nd ed wargear book for an autocannon was of that chaos weapon.

Which looks like the modern design for heavy stubbers more or less. Although the heavy stubber from 2nd ed is an ork shoulder mounted one with top cylinder ammo and a similarly perforated barrel.


It describes the heavy stubber as similar to 20th century heavy machine gun that fires heavy weight bullets, whatever definition that heavy weight is.


The difference in stats between the two is also quite marked - Autocannons being S8 Damage D6 and ASM-3, while a heavy stubber was S4 D1 ASM-1 (basically a longer ranged bolter with sustained fire).

From 3rd onward they became S7 AP4 and S4 AP6 for quite a while. The heavy stubber has retained its S4 profile even today.

I did find the siege of vraks series to have some truly interesting specs for solid shot firearms

And on that topic, i think twin-linked heavy stubbers used to be a thing that DKOK infantry squads could take.

Is there any word from the old guard floating around online (Phill Kelly, Gav Thorpe, C'thul---I mean Mat Ward, etc.)

 Hellebore wrote:
Yeah the illustration from the 2nd ed wargear book for an autocannon was of that chaos weapon.

Which looks like the modern design for heavy stubbers more or less. Although the heavy stubber from 2nd ed is an ork shoulder mounted one with top cylinder ammo and a similarly perforated barrel.


It describes the heavy stubber as similar to 20th century heavy machine gun that fires heavy weight bullets, whatever definition that heavy weight is.


The difference in stats between the two is also quite marked - Autocannons being S8 Damage D6 and ASM-3, while a heavy stubber was S4 D1 ASM-1 (basically a longer ranged bolter with sustained fire).

From 3rd onward they became S7 AP4 and S4 AP6 for quite a while. The heavy stubber has retained its S4 profile even today.

Heavy stubbers and autocannons do look fairly similar in many cases.

Here is a picture of 3 autocannons and 2 stubbers:

Part of the problem is that while GW generally have a distinctive feature for their weapons - autocannons generally have the distinctive, cross-lined muzzle - there's no specific look that has been nailed down for heavy stubbers.

And also that autocannons come in such a broad range of sizes.

 insaniak wrote:
Part of the problem is that while GW generally have a distinctive feature for their weapons - autocannons generally have the distinctive, cross-lined muzzle - there's no specific look that has been nailed down for heavy stubbers.

And also that autocannons come in such a broad range of sizes.

Yep. Plus we have more unusual variants to throw a spanner in, like the Lucius pattern autocannon and stubber muzzles used by the DKoK:



Or the Gryphonne autocannon:


Or the Mars autocannon (which looks like a lascannon...):


Thinking about it, the now distinctive autocannon muzzle didn't appear till the end of 3rd. This was the 2nd edition autocannon: