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I was reading some feedback on the Guard Lord Solar model and was interested to find some statements like;
"It's a guy on a horse, it doesn't fit"
"It looks like a fantasy model"
"It's not sci-fi enough"

Now the 40K universe is a big place and there is a lot of finding the bit that you like, but one thing I personally find so compelling is how much the Imperium draws on classical and medieval history for inspiration.
I would argue that part of the central appeal of 40K is that it is fantasy battles... in space!

But what about the rest of you, do you like your 40K to be fantasy in space or should it cleave closer to modern/technological styles of sci-fi and warfare?

The setting has Space Orcs and Elves and half the warriors are running around with swords, axes and power weapons. Meanwhile there's a whole army of Gothic Nuns.
Then there's Chaos which throws dragons in the sky; monsters of machine and flesh and more. Heck the Demon Army itself is basically identical models to the fantasy counterparts*.

Meanwhile the Imperial Guard is a WW1 army. Their tanks are WW1, their trenches and tactics are WW1, their officers and method of "shoot a trooper to inspire the rest to behave" is right out of WW1. That they have mounted cavalry in a literal sense 100% fits their style. (though the Lord Solar should be rocking with a plasma pistol or rifle or some other noble ranged weapon alongside his sabre and horse)


I think if you don't like any fantasy in your 40K then you've somehow missed a huge chunk of what makes 40K 40K.

Sure everyone is going to have their limit-points and there are armies that are more sci-fi than not - like the Tau (as long as you ignore the Kroot). But the fusion of fantasy and scifi is brazenly part of what the 40K setting is.

If anything 40K could actually do with a few more Alien factions - I recall when I first got into it one reason I went with Tyranids is that they were the most sci-fi alien of all the races at the time. That was back when your choices were elves, orks, chaos or Tyranids for anything that wasn't pure human.


*I will admit I think GW misses a huge trick here in having demons carrying guns and so forth. I've long felt that models like the slaanesh Chariot are cool but REALLY need some sci-fi elements on them when built for 40K.

**which migh also blow up in your face

my answer:

yes

From one point I think there is place for lot of stuff in 40k, from other I think it would be nice if some stuff has more 40k vibe. But imo its not about fantasy limit, it's more about minis being less and less grimdark. It is really nice noticable when comparing AdMech minis to illustrations from their codex. On pictures we have inhuman abnormal tech priests with weird shaped bodies. On minis we had Skitarii on horses. Damn, fantasy is cool, but it just doesn't fit every faction.

From the other hand I think that Votann has too little dark fantasy vibe, and too much typical sci fi vibe

Hmm I can't decide if robo-horses are gloriously illogical or just plain stupid!

Demons with guns is an interesting thought though, has a lore reason ever been given to why they don't use guns? At least some of them seem clever enough.

It doesn't even have to be "guns". It could be some flesh engine powered barb thrower or such.

Demons also use guns all the time when they are fused into a tank or other machine. Look at all the WarpMachines like the Helldrake and so forth. A Slaanesh Warrior could carry a gun that is simply a demon bound into the barrel of a regular gun - mutating it into a demonic weapon.

I like a healthy dollop of fantasy in my 40k. We’re fantasy in space here, and I’m good with that.

My one issue is when fantasy stuff gets game mechanics that make the sci-fi stuff look tame. What’s the stats on that basic knife? The AP of that crossbow? I get that game balance is a thing, but I’d like to see that adressed with points, and not having low tech gear comparable to SOTA tech.

Random Commissar gets a personal Banelade; Lord Solar gets a horse.

What does he do with it while he's doing actual commandering things like looking at maps, doing paperwork, etc.?

Macharius didn't need a horse to be cool.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Random Commissar gets a personal Banelade; Lord Solar gets a horse.

What does he do with it while he's doing actual commandering things like looking at maps, doing paperwork, etc.?
.

The same thing the commissar does with his baneblade - leaves it outside the command tent.
Then once the plans are done he leads the charge; being open on a horse and visible to the legions of on-foot troops who are going to follow him over the top of the trenches and into the very mouth of death on the other side of the battlefield with the charge.

Also no matter how close the baneblade gets, the commissar won't be able to hit them with his sword without getting off. The Lord Solar can not only get close to the enemy, he can hit them with his sword!

The setting has:
Space Dwarves
Space Elves
Space Orcs
Space Undead
Space Ogres
Space Hobbits
Space Demons

Just on the Fantasy side, and then you've got
Space WW2 Germans
Space WW1 French
Space WW2 North African
Space Napoleonics
Space Mongols
Space Spanish Inquisition
Space Robot Catholic Church

Just on the unaugmented human side

And then on the space marine end of things you've got
Space Romans
Space Werewolves
Space Vampires
Space Templars
Space Zombies
Space Wizards
Space Berserkers
Space Lovecraftian Cultists

I mean the only pure "sci fi" faction is Tyranids?

So I think people saying that don't know much about 40K really.

My issue with Lord Horseyman is that he ended up looking both very bland and very neat.

Just compare him...



,,, to the latest Empire mercenary captain or whatever the Man of Considerable Width is:



They're both modern GW sculpts of armored (but not sci-fi or power armored) humans. But for style and character, at least to me, the Empire captain wins hands down. He combines a variety of armor elements with complementing cloth and feathers for an interesting, somewhat cluttered look. By comparison Lord Horseyman is nothing special. He'd pass for a colonel, maybe a general. Not for the Imperium's warmaster. For that, he just doesn't look enough like a walking shrine.

I find that the below statement...

 Magos Nintendus wrote:
But imo its not about fantasy limit, it's more about minis being less and less grimdark.

... reflects how I've come to think of a fair few things that were added to 40k in the recent past. Some newer sculpts, possibly because of the preferences of newer sculptors, have moved a good bit away from the messy, cluttered Blanche look. That look has almost always been toned down on the models to begin with, so moving away even further has a detrimental effect to the visual appeal and identity of 40k. At least to me.

Let's go back to Lord Horseyman. He has a few ornaments, but these are notably all neatly separated from each other. There is no interaction between them and competing visual elements. No layering. No clutter. I find that's not a good look for an Imperial model of high rank who should epitomize Imperial symbology to appear as the inspiring figure he is supposed to be. For me that's a pretty big failure which has nothing to do with the presence or absence of fantasy elements on the miniature.

Fantasy isn't the problem here. He doesn't fit the political landscape of the 41st millennium. He'd make for a better Imperial Army general in Horus Heresy where a bland look is much more in style than the Lord Solar in 40k.

On the Fantasy issue itself, I can only echo what others have said above. Warhammer 40k's origin is Warhammer Fantasy in space. As long as we have space elves, space orcs and space dwarfs there had better be suitably medieval elements to some other factions as well. I don't mind some like Tau and modern Squats breaking the mold. A little contrast hasn't hurt anyone yet. But a fantasy look as much as a fantasy mentality is central to the setting. Moving away from it is not a good idea in my opinion.

You might say that's the problem to begin with. GW modernized Marines, gave them the modern, tacticool look with Primaris and at the same time managed to grow its customer base considerably. Add the loss of regimental variety among the Imperial Guard and predominance of the modernish looking Cadians compared to WWI Death Korps (which is still plenty modern) or Napoleonic Vostroyans and GW managed to shift 40k more in the sci-fi direction. As said, Tau and Squats do their part to reinforce this image. Add a shift in the background to let central characters make more convenient, sensible choices instead of disastrous mistakes informed by (especially religious) dogma and you get an environment that would get people to question some of the less sensible things in 40k. I can't say I'd really blame anyone who's gotten into 40k in the last ten years for the statements about Lord Horseyman in the OP. GW did their share to foster such opinions.

My main critique of Lord Horseyman (thanks, I'm using that now) is that he needs a big fat mustache.

Make him look more like Space Kitchener than Space Alexander the Overrated - I'm talking Zhukov levels of medals on the chest, I'm talking a big bristly mustache, I'm talking at least a belt over the chest (honestly, like the new Coteaz!).

Oh, and give robohorse a plume or some other ornament running down the neck armour. It looks really bare without it. Aside from that, it just needs a less "clean" paintjob.

It's just a weak model. "Not scifi enough" is an argument that shows total cluelessness to what 40K is about.

If we compare the resin "Lady Haera, 13th Daughter of Lord Helmawr" to this model, it is obvious he looks wayy to NPC to represent someone with his rank and stature. The pose sucks as well.

WH40K is a Fantasy-In-Space setting, so fantasy stuff fits, whatever it is.

Warhammer 40,000 started out as fantasy in space. So you should expect loads of fantasy elements in it, although it would make sense for Games Workshop to differentiate 40k from Age of Sigmar more.

The problem with Lord Solar's design isn't that he's fantasy. The problem is like @Geifer said, he is too neat and not grimdark at all. On first glance, he doesn't even look sci-fi, you could drop that model in an AOS game and it wouldn't look out of place unless you deeply inspected every model.

 Kroem wrote:
I was reading some feedback on the Guard Lord Solar model and was interested to find some statements like;
"It's a guy on a horse, it doesn't fit"
"It looks like a fantasy model"
"It's not sci-fi enough"

Now the 40K universe is a big place and there is a lot of finding the bit that you like, but one thing I personally find so compelling is how much the Imperium draws on classical and medieval history for inspiration.
I would argue that part of the central appeal of 40K is that it is fantasy battles... in space!

But what about the rest of you, do you like your 40K to be fantasy in space or should it cleave closer to modern/technological styles of sci-fi and warfare?

A backsliding technological universe could absolutely have horse mounted soldiers. I think it would fit MORE if the horses were more obviously armored and valuable than the men riding on them. Especially contrasting with the Dark Angels who rode horses until they became Space Marines and more valuable than the horses - so they were switched to bikes.

For me, its not so much about the fantasy/sci-fi split, its the consistent with the fluff thing.

I'm just about old enough to remember rogue trader being current and it being all about "hey fantasy lovers of our flagship battlegame, how does a "scifi" parallel of that work for you?" And it did. It really did. 40k is all about fantasy in space for me and I'd have all the fantasy factions barely changed, basic reskin style if I had my way but i'll concede that is not very creative possibly!

As others have said I just don't think the Lord Solar is a good model, and he doesn't fit the rest of the Guard range.

Blanchitsu can be overdone - but this just feels kind of weird, as if from the "shiny-plastic-y era" of AoS. The modern stuff - say Cities of Sigmar - is grungier than this.

I like my 40k dripping with fantasy. The "science" in this science fantasy is 99% just there for the aesthetic and the chance to have guns.

Hot take: the issue with the Lord Solar is that it's really hard to make actual horses look cool. Especially if you're leaning towards making the mount look more like a horse than a robot or what have you.

Sisters of the Thorn on stag mounts? Awesome. Seekers of Slaanesh? Awesome. Thunderwolf cavalry? Goofy but awesome. Exodites riding dinosaurs? Absolutely amazing.

Doomfire warlocks? Kind of struggling, but the fiendish details help. Bretonnians? Struggling and trying to hide as much horse as possible behind cloth and barding. Rough riders and krieg cavalry? Actually pulling it off pretty well, but I suspect the artist had to really try a few things to make it work.

Maybe I'm weird, but I've often found horse aesthetics very hit and miss. I feel like if the mount was more gaunt or more mechanical or more alien it would be easier to make it look good.

Tyel wrote:
As others have said I just don't think the Lord Solar is a good model, and he doesn't fit the rest of the Guard range.

Blanchitsu can be overdone - but this just feels kind of weird, as if from the "shiny-plastic-y era" of AoS. The modern stuff - say Cities of Sigmar - is grungier than this.

I think he would have been "a better fit" as a Lone Operative model. Think of Civil War Infantry with a mounted officer riding around giving orders. I think that's the cinematic look that fits for him.

One big mistake people make is thinking that 40k is science-fiction. 40k is space-fantasy, just like star wars.

BanjoJohn wrote:
One big mistake people make is thinking that 40k is science-fiction. 40k is space-fantasy, just like star wars.

I was just going to say the exact thing. Logic doesn't really even play into it. 40k is comic-book Sci-Fantasy in an incredibly wide (but rather shallowly developed) universe. You can fit almost anything in if you do it right.

Recall also, that 40k Rogue Trader and Warhammer Fantasy Battles were originally almost entirely compatible with some supplements such as Realms of Chaos being useable in either game.

The complaints aren't about the horse specifically I'd argue, it's because the model doesn't have enough flair to make you think that this is the person GW is trying to tell you it is.

Compare the following:
Lord Solar Leontus

Empire Commander

The former is supposed to be the leader of the entire Astra Militarum, a lord amongst lords, and the greatest mortal commander in the Imperium. The other is a generic baseline commander of the Empire.
They look far too similar, and in the lack of flair lies the issue.

Compare that to the likes of Guilliman and Abaddon:


Both have very fancy weapons (big sword, big flamey sword, massive claw), baroque armour (lots of gold on blue, a giant spikey trophy rack with skulls, a huge cape), and so give the presence of a major player on the field.
The Lord Solar lacks this. Generic sword, meh cape and very very boring basic armour.

However, and this is very important, lots of people complained that GW centerpiece models were too extravagant and too fancy. In my humble opinion, GW listened at the wrong time and with the wrong model. This is the one time where the centerpiece should have been overblown and fancy.
The Lord Solar should have tactical advisors and attendants on the base of the model much like the Triumph of St Katherine:

Unfortunately, this didn't happen so we've got a model with lots of flat panels with minimal detailing because that is what the people asked for in a centrepiece model.

I would have loved to see a guard field commander HQ in the vein of the triumph. Would have been a great fit to the army.

I have a Daemon army, I have Fantasy Chaos Warriors and Blightkings mixed in my Death Guard and many of my Orks are fantasy savage orks from GW or other fantasy producers. So I'm making my 40K factions even more fantasy than GW does...
That's why I also like all the silly stuff of the Wolves and others. I don’t know why Salamanders don’t ride giant salamanders and Carcharodons burrow some of the sharks and turtles from these AoS sea elves .
So, no problem with horse riders. Also, if you do your Guard with perry napoleonic miniatures or hell, put some persian slingers on the table mixed with (even unconverted) fantasy ogres and use that as your guard army I'm okay with it because I picture imperial feral worlds just like that.

So because I'm bored, just a very rough mockup of what IMO the Lord Solar should have looked like:



Sword is fancier, helmet is fancier, he has attendants, and even the horse has a little extra head bling. IMO that sets him up as a more important looking dude from the absurdity that is Warhammer. The paint scheme is just GW standard "this is what this looks like" but swap the pale blue for regal purple or a deep red and it would look all the better as well.

Damn I actually want to do this now...

Wow nice mockup tbf! I don't think the new Lord Solar's armour is that different from Macharius' though? A bit flatter but not massively. The posh hat (man and horse) and attendant flunkies are a great addition.

 Overread wrote:

Meanwhile the Imperial Guard is a WW1 army. Their tanks are WW1, their trenches and tactics are WW1, their officers and method of "shoot a trooper to inspire the rest to behave" is right out of WW1. That they have mounted cavalry in a literal sense 100% fits their style. (though the Lord Solar should be rocking with a plasma pistol or rifle or some other noble ranged weapon alongside his sabre and horse)

I think if you don't like any fantasy in your 40K then you've somehow missed a huge chunk of what makes 40K 40K.

I think why people balk at mounted Guard is just that most people kind of meld WW1 and 2 tech together into a vague concept of "modern military" (that isn't modern anymore) and that concept doesn't include mounted officers. A guy on a horse is often used to signify a Napoleonic or early American war era in media so seeing them feels wrong when mixed with things that are generally used to signify WW1+2 era settings.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Exodites riding dinosaurs? Absolutely amazing.

...did we get an Exodite release when I wasn't looking?

Concept is good, sure, but you cannae claim the execution is good when the unit doesnae exist.

 LunarSol wrote:

I think why people balk at mounted Guard is just that most people kind of meld WW1 and 2 tech together into a vague concept of "modern military" (that isn't modern anymore) and that concept doesn't include mounted officers. A guy on a horse is often used to signify a Napoleonic or early American war era in media so seeing them feels wrong when mixed with things that are generally used to signify WW1+2 era settings.

Which is funny because the Imperium is supposed to be gothic and ridiculous. The whole IG range is so grounded and dieselpunk-looking that you forget the space ships are ornate flying cathedrals in style and that the well-to-do-types (including this officer) have some absurd Sun-King level aesthetics going on sometimes all melded with rare high level tech. So an officer actually looking very clean and riding a shiny horse that also has a powerful forcefield or whatever built into it's riding tack is totally on point for a higher rank. If anything it's not gothic enough, it probably speaks to the character actually being somewhat sensible and results-focused that he's not a powdered wig covered in guilt detail.

Also I don't know if it's a national bias (myself being in a commonwealth country who educates more than others on WW1) but an officer being mounted on a horse is absolutely in vibe with a WW1 setting.