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How do!

So this came up in another thread, and it’s a background topic I’m not sure we’ve firm details on. And this is an attempt to discuss that, even if all we come up with is some form of head canon consensus.

First, I think we should consider not all Tyranids are equal in this regard. For instance, Genestealers and Lictors in particular specialise as ambush predators, which in the real world tend to be capable very fast speeds, over a short period of time. The Cheetah tops the list of fastest land animals, documented of reaching around 65mph.

Of course, we’re not talking naturally evolved critters here, so whilst the Cheetah is a solid benchmark, I don’t think we can, or should, use it as a firm limit on Tyranid speed. So, I’m going to argue Genestealers and Lictors (and Von Ryan’s Leapers) would be capable of at least 65mph at full sprint. And I’m far from convinced they’d have the endurance limit of a Cheetah, as they’re far from natural evolution. But, that’s not to say their top speed is limited to relative bursts of activity.

Gaunts could be of similar speed I suppose, but I suspect are engineered for greater endurance. So I suggest the Horse as a benchmark, which outside of race horses, average 25-30mph, and can sustain that for two to three miles at time. Again, Nids being Nids, whilst I think the speed is a useful benchmark, I remain unconvinced they’d be tied to a similar level of endurance.

Perhaps we should also consider top speed not necessarily being the same as combat speed, but something largely used during an invasion to move from prey site to prey site at a decent clip, as Nids don’t really do transport once planetside. And once in combat, it may well be counterproductive to have different elements of the swarm travelling at wildly different paces.

Tyranid ground swarms are capable of sustained travel speeds of 60kph/37.3mph for hours, and unspecified faster sprinting speeds if needed. That's from Warriors of Ultramar.

As a supporting evidence, in The Fall of Malvelion a Tyranid ground swarm had little issue outmaneuvering, intercepting and destroying a retreating mechanised infantry regiment.

As for air, Tyranid gargoyles can easily fly faster than 200kph/124.3mph (also from Warriors of Ultramar) and are known to be able to board Imperial aircraft mid flight, so presumably supersonic flight. Harpies and Hive Crones are definitely supersonic and even capable of space flight.

Nice! Definitely some figures we can work from there. Also nice to know some of my proposals weren’t terribly far off the mark.

At first I thought this thread would be about how hive fleets can travel from one system to another on a human timescale. Another lore question I'm curious about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of course, we’re not talking naturally evolved critters here, so whilst the Cheetah is a solid benchmark, I don’t think we can, or should, use it as a firm limit on Tyranid speed.

Why not? Natural evolution is slow, but it's in fact quite good at optimizing capabilities. The cheetah, an animal that is highly specialized for short bursts of speed, runs 100 km/h because it's likely pretty much the maximum speed that a four-legged animal of its weight and shape can reach in Earth's gravity and atmosphere, accounting for other factors such as daily calorie requirements to sustain such an organism. There comes a point where the only obstacle left to improving your performance is the laws of physics, and I think cheetahs are pretty close to that point.

Tyranids might create a cheetah-equivalent in a matter of days after touching down on a new planet. But it wouldn't be faster. At least not by much.

 Tyran wrote:
As for air, Tyranid gargoyles [...] are known to be able to board Imperial aircraft mid flight, so presumably supersonic flight. Harpies and Hive Crones are definitely supersonic

Yeah, not buying it. The speed of sound in Earth's atmosphere is around 1200 km/h, roughly four times the speed of a diving peregrine falcon (which isn't flapping its wings, just being extremely aerodynamic). Again, as above: the laws of physics get in the way. I think tyranids could only reach such speeds if they evolve some kind of thrust propulsion, like a biological jet engine. Wings alone won't do it.

Granted, they might be able to plot an intercept course on a supersonic aircraft... just not catch up with it from behind. (Unless the aircraft is going slow, e.g. on a recon or search-and-rescue mission.)

.

My view on Tyranid forced evolution is it’s not Either/Or.

A Tyranid organism’s pressures don’t involve survival in the same way. Once an invasion is over, and that dinner bell is ringing? The swarm is off to the digestion pools, to recover their biomass along with any new biomass obtained. Any fallen are devoured by Rippers along with everything else they can get their little grablets on.

And there’s no requirement, outside of Hormies and Genestealers, to continue the line by breeding, removing another evolutionary pressure.

So the organisms, like Borer Beetles, needn’t worry about energy conservation in the same way as natural creatures.

Not just a matter of energy expenditure. Look at how a cheetah runs. Its feet barely touch the ground before they're in the air again.

Also, would it be useful for tyranids to evolve to run faster than that? They'll cover the whole planet eventually. Even if you can outrun them, sooner or later you'll be surrounded. Some humans can escape in space, but compared to the feast of biomass that has nowhere to go, this is like a breadcrumb.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of course, we’re not talking naturally evolved critters here, so whilst the Cheetah is a solid benchmark, I don’t think we can, or should, use it as a firm limit on Tyranid speed.

Why not? Natural evolution is slow, but it's in fact quite good at optimizing capabilities. The cheetah, an animal that is highly specialized for short bursts of speed, runs 100 km/h because it's likely pretty much the maximum speed that a four-legged animal of its weight and shape can reach in Earth's gravity and atmosphere, accounting for other factors such as daily calorie requirements to sustain such an organism. There comes a point where the only obstacle left to improving your performance is the laws of physics, and I think cheetahs are pretty close to that point.
.

And yet I bet if you made cheetah-racing into a major gambled sport generating millions each year you'd see people breed faster and faster cheetahs. Sure some might be unable to survive in the wide; but they'd be optimised as heck for speed.

Tyranids don't even have limits like long-lifespan or such. They can optimise like crazy and if the Gaunt burns itself out its no problem it dies; gets consumed and made into more gaunts. So long as it achieves the objective of storming the enemy front lines and such its done its job.


Also don't forget the limits we understand on Earth are based on our biology as well as materials - otherworlds can have entirely new elements that might well lead to new materials that allow insane performance.

Can tyranids swim?

I've never seen a picture of a tyranid in the water.

They have to have some bioforms adapted to liquid environments.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Not just a matter of energy expenditure. Look at how a cheetah runs. Its feet barely touch the ground before they're in the air again.

Also, would it be useful for tyranids to evolve to run faster than that? They'll cover the whole planet eventually. Even if you can outrun them, sooner or later you'll be surrounded. Some humans can escape in space, but compared to the feast of biomass that has nowhere to go, this is like a breadcrumb.

For the entire swarm? Probably not, no. For specific organisms? Absolutely. For Vanguard organisms, being able to at least sprint faster than a Cheetah, and the acceleration involved, may be the difference between a prey organism getting away/raising the alarm. I mean, think Big Red “Arrrgh!” Alarm Button. Slapping the button itself is a fraction of a second. But as Starship Troopers demonstrates? If your foe can’t press the button, the button is worthless.

The longer they can escape detection, the more damage they can do, and the faster the consumption can be completed, reducing the chance of orbital reinforcements catching the Hive Fleet at dinner, and giving it a right kicking.

 Overread wrote:
Tyranids don't even have limits like long-lifespan or such. They can optimise like crazy and if the Gaunt burns itself out its no problem it dies; gets consumed and made into more gaunts. So long as it achieves the objective of storming the enemy front lines and such its done its job.

I think the tyranids' burn-the-candle-by-both-ends thing would help with endurance more than raw speed.

Cheetahs can run 100 km/h over short distances. Some tyranids might be able to run 110 km/h for hours on end.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Can tyranids swim?

I've never seen a picture of a tyranid in the water.

They have to have some bioforms adapted to liquid environments.

They can and they have whole bioforms dedicated to it - we don't see it cause 40K doesn't really do sea-units nor navy stuff on the sea. So we don't really get them as models so there's no artwork or such. But they do turn up in the lore. A recent story about some Genstealer cultists and Tyranids on a world had underwater parts with dedicated undersea tyranid organisms

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Can tyranids swim?

I've never seen a picture of a tyranid in the water.

They have to have some bioforms adapted to liquid environments.

Good question. To be honest, outside of “Orks can build submarines”, we don’t know an awful lot about anyone’s planetside naval assets.

Though I’d expect any seagoing Nids to be submarine rather than battleship analogues. Like a Kraken.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Yeah, not buying it. The speed of sound in Earth's atmosphere is around 1200 km/h, roughly four times the speed of a diving peregrine falcon (which isn't flapping its wings, just being extremely aerodynamic). Again, as above: the laws of physics get in the way. I think tyranids could only reach such speeds if they evolve some kind of thrust propulsion, like a biological jet engine. Wings alone won't do it

They are capable of space travel, as in the Codex in particular tells us that Hive Crones can intercept spacecraft while in space. They aren't flying on wing power alone.

We also can't overlook that the Tyranids have some warp stuff going on in the setting with psy powers so there could be some warp magic going on as well - just in their own twisted different and alien way.

Plus lets not forget jet engines are based on chemical reactions creating energy. Tyranids could very well be doing the same thing and we know that they can create things like super-hot plasma breath and not burn themsleves.

They also have that gravity engine effect going on so that could also be part of how they do things

Tyranid bioships are often described using plasma thrusters, and that means fusion as plasma propulsion is just a fancy name for a fusion rocket.

It would also explain why the Tyranids consume entire oceans, that's a lot of hydrogen for fusion power while the consumed atmospheres provide reaction mass.

The original introduction of tyranids on the planet Tyran had the swarm land in the ocean and move towards the main fortress before erupting out of the water (the water was said to boil with the number of them).

Tyranids originally used the warp to travel, so they could move between systems on human timescales easily.

the narvhal thing was just author insertion for its own sake, the main issue 40k lore has is when writers like to make their new thing the bestest cool creation without considering the implications and consequences, rather than working within the parameters already there.

I think a tyranid running as fast as a cheetah is a bit ridiculous. A cheetah gives up a lot to be as fast as it is. Compared to other big cats it's very slight in build, long limbed, has a small head, smaller teeth, bigger heart and lungs, and its claws don't retract because they're used for traction.
It's fully optimised to run and maneuver and carries just enough killing power to detain and dispatch its prey.

A tyranid is typically on two legs and carrying its armoured carapace and weapons and ammunition, often huge powerful weapons.

An organism could be optimised for higher power to weight ratio and energy output at the expense of lifespan or with the risk of overheating itself to death or starving to death or rapid wasting if it isn't adequately fed.
You can always say tyranids are faster because of otherworldly materials and accelerated evolution and warp magic but that's not that interesting or necessary.

I'd say most tyranids are maybe 50-100% faster than an equipped human soldier, something like a hormagaunt built for speed is maybe 3x as fast or as fast as a horse.

Tyranids are also designed. The results of forced evolution.

As Overread put better than I did? They don’t have the same constraints as natural evolution. There’s no pressure to reproduce on a given genus. There’s no pressure for particular longevity, as the Hive Fleet is all or nothing when it’s invading. When successful, any biomass not thrown into the warp or disintegrated is recycled by the Hive Fleet - the organisms planetside included.

And that allows for truly alien biology, including rapid maturation, and burning through energy at a literally unnatural pace, the sort of pace that would be absolutely suicidal in nature.

I do find the speed of Gargoyles and Hive Crones mental - but, I do temper that “uh huh, sure they are, are you sure you understand the numbers and that” reaction with “it does make them terrifying”

So long as you are being even handed in the OTT capabilities it's fine.

Far too often though you have people excusing insane marine actions and making anyone else doing the same for another faction jump through hoops to justify it.

People act like marines are the only OTT part of 40k...

40k is over the top, everything is crazy. Marines were created specifically to give humans something to compete with the galaxy's crazy, but that means everything else is ridiculous by comparison.

I think the terrifying nature of the swarms is easily understated.

To the Hive Mind, each individual non-synapse organism is no less expendable than a Borer Beetle. And the humble Termagants, whilst probably the least individually threatening is still perfectly capable of killing a human, and swiftly. It’s chitinous carapace seemingly on par with modern body armour. And being quadrupedal, swift and manouverable.

A Carnifex is around the size of an elephant, but far heavier and swifter of movement.

They’re mental when you slown down and think about it.

The extremely good Desert Raiders book that pits a regiment of Tallarn against Tyranids is a good marker for speed of Tyranids. Sentinels on the lope could keep up with the swarms of gaunts on the planet, if the pilot went to full speed they could out run them.

I don't think Tyranids have to be that fast. Genestealers and Lictors are reflexively very fast but full on sprinting? Probably not.. they are ambush predators on the whole. Can probably put on a good burst of speed but they rely on stealth to get their prey.

Genestealers and Lictors also have far higher intelligence compared to real world critters, and for a Tyranid, a level of autonomy to take advantage of that.

So incredibly stealthy, very likely capable of insane speeds, even if it’s just Cheetah like bursts, and a better than a “simple” animal capability to adapt to a situation and prioritise targets? You’ve a supreme predator right there - especially Genestealers, which like Xenomorphs can act individually or eusocially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also? Nids being Nids, we can potentially deal with any source conflict on speeds as different subspecies.

For instance, to our and Imperial eyes, a Termagant is a Termagant is a Termagant, yeah? A malevolent creature with one of a number of bioweapons.

But that doesn’t rule out subspecies within a swarm with different capabilities. Say, a Brood better suited to bursts of high speed, the next Brood better suited to persistence hunting.

Different Hive Fleets (or splinter fleets for that matter) may favour certain traits over others, as the overall Hive Mind continues to field test and refine, in search of the perfect organism and mix thereof for any given prey species, in a never ending biological arms race.

And so? The bugs outrun by a Sentinel squadron aren’t perhaps the conflict in background those sustaining in the region of 37mph for hours might first suggest.

I agree with the idea that different broods will have a different mixture of capabilities for different purposes, even if they are nominally using the same “chassis”.

If one class of bug has a finite energy reserve, then the key parameters will be armour, firepower, speed and longevity. The hive mind will be able to balance those on the fly (within the limits if each species) after the first drop when spawning pools are set up.

No point spawning a light fast long ranged gaunt for a city fight. Or an absolute unit that lasts less than a day for long range desert combat. As with other races these differences fall into the logistics side of things that the tabletop game doesn’t really show, and the rules granularity isnt fine enough to show such differences.

It also raises the prospect that there are further adaptations “under the chassis” for each loadout.

So, a Tyranid Warrior armed with Boneswords and Talons may have different tolerances and tweaks to one armed with a Deathspitter. Perhaps ranged Bugs can see more wavelengths of light than combat bugs. Their brains may have different enhancements better suited to certain roles.

Some might be better at climbing (micro hairs on their locomotive limbs), some at vaulting obstacles.

All mixed in, intentionally or not, so that a given swarm can rapidly adapt to natural and constructed terrain, the Hive Mind ever watching to see exactly which tweaks and traits are proving vital, and sending in appropriate reinforcements - or just making more.

And I prefer the concept that, at least in the early stages, the Hive Mind just sends down whatever it has ready to hatch, or in suspended animation, on hand, then monitors and adapts its further forces on the fly, as opposed to it having some capacity to survey a planet from orbit, vanguard infiltrators not withstanding.

At one time that was the cornerstone of building a Tyranid army. Typically you had a bunch of generic bodies like warriors, tyrants and carnifex and you kitted them out with weapons and upgrades to suit their function.

Carny with ranged weapons would take the several ranged weapon boosting upgrades; the one with scything talons only would take the close combat boosting ones.

And just like the Imperial Guard has thousands of different configurations each tweaked to a local world; the Tyranids do as well. Each fleet will develop its own traits based on what it encounters and what its needs are. There's also an interesting element of random evolution as well going on. Tyranids appear to have very good genetic control but at the same time also allow genetic drifting as well. So if they get a gaunt that's just slightly better than the others now that becomes the new template which is copied almost but not quite perfectly billions of times until a new one arises that's just slightly better.


The most interesting thing is that we've never really fully understood the Hive Mind and how information on genetics moves through the swarm. Tyranids have this really strange "all united and yet also divided" thing going on so that a swarm on one side of the Galaxy might be linked by the Hive mind to another on the other side; but at the same time they don't appear to share perfect genetic information with each other.

I've always held that the Tyranids have a lot of boons but are also, on some level, restricted by elements of their core biology that stops them just being like biological lego bricks able to build and do whatever they want. It's just that we've never been let in on what the limits and restrictions fully are.

I suppose one way to look at the variance between Hive Fleets, and brace yourself because this a huge stretch*, is to treat the overall Hive Mind as a single planet, and each constituent Hive Fleets as a separate biome within that planet.

Just as on Earth different types of animals dominate certain biomes, so it is with the Hive Fleets, all in the name of experimenting with new genetic strands, seeing what works and where.

And as the Hive Mind extends across them all, something experimented with in Hive Fleet A which didn’t work, could be ported as knowledge to Hive Fleet B, where its traits would be useful.

*or just a poor analogy for what I’m getting at.

There’s definitely some exchange of information across the Hive Fleets, as “unique” gribblies, such as the Swarmlord, Parasite of Mortrex, Red Terror etc can pop up in any of them.

My head canon here is the exchange of information is complete. What one Fleets learns, all the others Learn. But, in the constant, rapid evolution, the foes of the Hive Mind can’t tell an unexpectedly squishy bug from one that took more to put down. It’s either enough you fought off that tendril, or you’re all dead and digested. And there’s always sufficient new biomass that the Hive Mind isn’t prone to “if X didn’t work here, might it work here”, instead preferring to analyse and apply any new strains and that discovered during the latest successful consumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, that was a load of confusing mince.

A more succinct? The different Hive Fleets act as different labs. They share information from their collective dindins, but each is tasked with applying that information in different ways. The aim is to try out new genetic traits in as many ways in as many experiments as possible.

Thus, the sharing of information is common, but the application remains distinct by intent.

 Flinty wrote:
Or an absolute unit that lasts less than a day for long range desert combat.

Ah yes, the chonkagant substrain

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Or an absolute unit that lasts less than a day for long range desert combat.

Ah yes, the chonkagant substrain

With all that armour, I tell you, it did not skimp on leg day!

Regardless of how the Hive Mind does it, there is an utilitarian design goal here: Tyranid swarms are designed with the purpose of out fighting the other militaries in the galaxy.

A hormagaunt isn't designed to hunt gazelles, so a cheetah is a poor comparison. It is designed to hunt Imperial guardsmen and thus its real benchmark is how fast Imperial Guards armies move on the field and the effective range of their weapons.

Same with carnifexes. It doesn't hunt elephants, it hunts battle tanks.

Well *something* has to hunt gazelles and elephants, makes sense to breed existing forms that are also capable of doing those things rather than tasking an entire new life form to do it.

You have a mass-produced gaunt variant bred for speed that has been doing exceptionally well against the bipedal meat creatures with guns you keep encountering, but a lot of these worlds also seem to have very fast quadrupedal herbivorous lifeforms that those gaunts can't quite reach. Makes more sense to make hormagaunts a little bit faster to perform both roles rather than make something new to hunt the herbivores