Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im flicking through Imperial Armour 9: Volume Nine - the Badab War [Part 1] by Alan Bligh and on page 174-176 he states the following

"Huron's concept of the Legion was
in some senses far from an original
one, but instead it can be viewed
as a historical anachronism with
more in common with the armies of
Terra during the Great Crusade - a
combined force of human conscripts
and soldiers directly commanded by
and tactically integrated with Space
Marine contingents. In practice
such arrangements created on an
ad hoc basis in wartime are still
common in the Imperium, particularly
during lengthy crusade service or
in isolated warzones bereft of help,
but Huron's conscious transgression
was to formalise this arrangement
and integrate the chain of command
on a standing basis. In doing so
Lugft Huron fundamentally broke a
tenet of the Imperium's status quo
that had been largely upheld for
millennia since the dark days of the
Horus Heresy, a tenet that had been
enshrined to prevent any one Space
Marine commander from wielding
absolute power in the Imperium's
affairs again."

[-]

"You could also use this army list to
represent other Space Marine forces with closely integrated allies, as might happen on a long crusade, during the siege of an isolated worid or during a particularly tumultuous era where the normal run of the Imperium's order has broken down for a time, and the Space Marines step in to take charge heedless of the lives of those fragile
humans fighting beside them,"

And then in Cadian Blood, we find this snippit

Matters of rank and seniority between the Imperial Guard and the Astartes were far from
straightforward. The Astartes Chapters were autonomous servants of the Imperium, and answered to
no authority but their own. And yet technically, the lord general held rank here. It was a tension
repeated countless times across millennia. The Adeptus Astartes operated under a mandate from the
God-Emperor — their genhanced bodies marked them as his chosen sons, living on as shadows of
his image. Yet the Imperial Guard answered to Segmentum Command and, in turn, the High Lords
of Terra. Cooperation was common between the Guard and the Astartes, but conflict was hardly
unheard of.

Now my question is NOT whether or not Astartes ever assume operational command over baseline humans (i also wont be drawn into the old argument whether or not Imperial Armour is canon because Mr Alan Bligh shuffled off his mortal coil), but rather if the reverse happens.

Ie, is there a precedent for Marines willingly/grudgingly taking orders from a not-marine. And yes, im aware of the hold the Adeptus Administratum (a civilian govt ministry) have over the Minotaurs as per 'Regents Shadow', but i was thinking of a much smaller scale and at a ad-hoc level.

Im writing a satirical homebrew background and i wanted to flip the script on its head by having a small force (ie, a single fireteam's worth) of Marines willingly/grudgingly take orders from a not-marine. Assuming yes, would marines be more likely be listen to a fellow service(wo)man (even if from a different branch) than a 'mere civilian'.

.

With politics, debts, and honor involved, absolutely.

Easy example are inquisitors.

generally marines are going to have more experience then “mortals” and tend to operate independently. They exist outside normal chains of command. They are more likely to shownup and take command then yield it. But is the story demands it, and things line up just right? Sure.

An Inquisitor can.

In a theatre of war? It….depends!

Typically, Marines will act autonomously of other Imperial Factions, but not entirely divorced from them. So you’ll have a designated High Command, which the Marine Commander (of any rank) will inevitably be part of. And between them is the responsibility to make best use of the assets available.

And especially well respected Human, such as say, Yarrick? Might have the ear and the confidence of the Marine, and have their plan modified to make best use of the Astartes presence as part of the main thrust. Other times, the Astartes may simply be notifying everyone else where they’ll be deploying.

And of course, each Chapter will have a different approach to this.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
An Inquisitor can.

In a theatre of war? It….depends!

Typically, Marines will act autonomously of other Imperial Factions, but not entirely divorced from them. So you’ll have a designated High Command, which the Marine Commander (of any rank) will inevitably be part of. And between them is the responsibility to make best use of the assets available.

And especially well respected Human, such as say, Yarrick? Might have the ear and the confidence of the Marine, and have their plan modified to make best use of the Astartes presence as part of the main thrust. Other times, the Astartes may simply be notifying everyone else where they’ll be deploying.

And of course, each Chapter will have a different approach to this.

What about with civilian leadership? Say if a joint taskforce aimed at targeting fiscal irresponsibility or smuggling was being assembled and ..... for example, a senior tax accountant from the Estates Imperium was designated chief of operations or a senior arbitrator from the Adeptus Arbites?

Probably not. Marines serve a specific purpose - smashing in the face of enemies of The Imperium.

Tax collection isn’t their job, nor is countering smuggling. They’re just far too rare a resource for such mundane uses.

When there is collaboration, it’s to ensure their intervention are as effective as possible. The Marines know their capabilities best, and so will have an entirely difference outlook on a given theatre, being able to see where their deployment and intervention might shave weeks, months, years off a campaign. Could be a drop pod assault into the enemy’s central command to gut it, having ensured the Guard are suitably organised and deployed to maximise the oncoming confusion. Could be land based surgical strikes on enemy supply columns to shatter its logistics, and so on.

Is it possible?
100% yes. It’s a big galaxy.

Does it have precedent?
For civilians, in written lore, I don’t think so.

Is it cool?
If it’s done well, yes.
So just do it good.

During the heresy there was an equality between humans and astartes. Everyone knew what astartes were and although people were in awe of the primarchs and the space marines the astartes were not seen as Demi gods or deified at all. And there a number of examples in the early HH novels of humans speaking to astartes as if they were other humans or expecting them to respect their seniority.

In their desperation to preserve Horus after he is wounded by the anathema a number of sons of Horus maim and kill some humans (basically by steam rolling them out the way) and the human generals that are part of the expeditionary fleet expect those marines to be held accountable and face justice for murder.

In 40K chapters are largely autonomous but take order from terra. In fact I think it’s like that’s because the high lords like the fact that only they can command the power of the astartes with measures in place to excommunicate renegade legions.

I mean in a practical sense if you have one squad of tacticals fighting alongside an entire guard regiment the marines either need to do what guard command says, or leave, or get surrounded by 50 hormagaunts and eaten.

As for the tax enforcement squad that's a stretch but I don't think impossible. Presume that they're waiting for transport and not doing anything else useful. Maybe their captain volunteered them for the mission because they were loudly complaining about waiting around and he thought it would be funny.

Helsreach has a moment like that, involving Yarrick, we get Grimaldus POV through some of it, it's interesting

 Bobthehero wrote:
Helsreach has a moment like that, involving Yarrick, we get Grimaldus POV through some of it, it's interesting

its a great moment in a fantastic novel - same with his interactions with Zarha Mancion the Princeps Majoris of a Emperor Class Titan.

So much depends on the narrative, the Chapter etc.

Some Chapters are pretty much - get out of our way mortal fools... Others like the Iron Hands - are you are a expendable resource - do not forget it.

Someone like a Planetary governor can usually expect a Marine to at least listen to what they have to say...unless the Marine thinks he is doing something wrong...

Many of the BL novels have Marines working with others - Guard, Commissars - Cain gets on well with at least one Chapter, Sisters, Ad Mech, Titan Legions

Helsreach is a very good example of an exception to the rule.
All the Astartes (barring one rude guy) agree that Yarrick gets overall warzone command because he knows the Ork like no other living being and has an exceptional grasp of warfare even by Astartes standards.
He doesn't give battlefield commands to them but he does give them theatre assignments.

In The Tithes, a Custodian shows up and starts bossing around an Astartes Captain.

We also see Astartes consult with Cain about their operations from time to time. Granted, that’s a Chapter he’s familiar with already, even a friend of.

Even then it’s still collaboration rather than accepting orders.

The Titan Legions don't waste their time sharing their battle plans with the Astartes... or anyone else for that matter...

Unless it's a "We are going to do X."

There are plenty of examples of Inquisitors, rogue traders, or navigators (the space wolves specifically) having command and control over marines.

Marines are only independent of the departmento munitorum, they're not independent of the imperium as a whole. They still answer to the high lords. Their creation is only high lord decree.


Whether a chapter takes a might makes right attitude to following orders in the moment or not, they can still be commanded by anyone with the imperial authority to do so.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
I mean in a practical sense if you have one squad of tacticals fighting alongside an entire guard regiment the marines either need to do what guard command says, or leave, or get surrounded by 50 hormagaunts and eaten.

As for the tax enforcement squad that's a stretch but I don't think impossible. Presume that they're waiting for transport and not doing anything else useful. Maybe their captain volunteered them for the mission because they were loudly complaining about waiting around and he thought it would be funny.

Oh, im writing even smaller than that. We're talking demi-squad/combat-squad amount of Marines. Ie you can count the amount of bolter marines on one hand.

A slightly different example but I’m sure I’ve read about grey shields (marines that are their chapters sole survivor) finding service working for rogue traders or as bodyguards to planetary governors.

Not sure if there are any written examples of that but I think a marine would be well suited to frontier life with a rogue trader. Not sure what would be in it for them to be a planetary governor’s body guard. Most depictions of planetary governors make me think an astartes wouldn’t be able to stand the arrogance and decadence and probably corruption.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The Titan Legions don't waste their time sharing their battle plans with the Astartes... or anyone else for that matter...

Unless it's a "We are going to do X."

They bloody do!

Infantry is the bane of Titan Legions. A few Lascannons or other heavy weapons secreted in fox holes or ruins can ruin a Titan’s day. The legs are vulnerable to meltabombs and Krak grenades, the Titan itself much too large to effectively engage such attackers at very close range.

Indeed, the Squad Identifiers atop Rhinos are there precisely so Titan Crew can readily tell who and what is moving up in support.

They’re all part of the Imperial War Machine, which works best when wielded together, each element bringing its own strengths and covering each others weaknesses. Titans, Guard, PDF, Astartes, Sisters, Ad-Mech, Custodes. All deliberately separate (including the PDF, at least nominally) to prevent anyone one commander having outright power. But still intended to combine arms when multiple elements are present.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The Titan Legions don't waste their time sharing their battle plans with the Astartes... or anyone else for that matter...

Unless it's a "We are going to do X."

They bloody do!

Infantry is the bane of Titan Legions. A few Lascannons or other heavy weapons secreted in fox holes or ruins can ruin a Titan’s day. The legs are vulnerable to meltabombs and Krak grenades, the Titan itself much too large to effectively engage such attackers at very close range.

Indeed, the Squad Identifiers atop Rhinos are there precisely so Titan Crew can readily tell who and what is moving up in support.

They’re all part of the Imperial War Machine, which works best when wielded together, each element bringing its own strengths and covering each others weaknesses. Titans, Guard, PDF, Astartes, Sisters, Ad-Mech, Custodes. All deliberately separate (including the PDF, at least nominally) to prevent anyone one commander having outright power. But still intended to combine arms when multiple elements are present.

I'm on page 209 of Titanicus, and so far the only shared strategy is, "We will walk."

I Have Priests of Mars next, Maybe this book and the Yarrick Omnibus have jaded my views. Its been known to happen.

mrFickle wrote:
A slightly different example but I’m sure I’ve read about grey shields (marines that are their chapters sole survivor) finding service working for rogue traders or as bodyguards to planetary governors.

Not sure if there are any written examples of that but I think a marine would be well suited to frontier life with a rogue trader. Not sure what would be in it for them to be a planetary governor’s body guard. Most depictions of planetary governors make me think an astartes wouldn’t be able to stand the arrogance and decadence and probably corruption.

In the 3rd ed marine codex that lists the full UM chapter one of the deployments listed is an exploratory protection force. It specifically lists that they are nominally under the command of a RT, but battle command is still held by the captain.

To your original point of a small force of marines working for mortals, I'd say the easiest way to set this up would be some kind of honour debt. Like this mortal somehow did something really massive for the chapter and thus is given a squad of Space Marines under their command for say a century or something. You could get pretty flexible with the idea.

Cultural answer. So depends on that groups culture. Alpha legion are well know for following best man for the job, but that 90% of the time is going to be an astartes because their brains as well as bodies are enhanced. The sheer number of humans means you do get people who are better, especially at aspects of tasks.

And in mundane ways - when the captain says Astartes to boarding pods or prepare to repel boarders, they are going to be following what the captain has said.

Not to mention life experience.

Outside of Rejuvenaut treatments, a Guard Commander is stuck to a pretty standard human life span.

Whereas even a Space Marine Sergant could be centuries old, and have lived a life of relentless warfare, and typically against a wider range of foes.

But. Both are going to have unique, valid information and introspection for the other. Where the Astartes are primed for rapid action and relying on their post-human abilities, a Guard Commander is going to be intimately familiar with their Regiment’s capabilities. So it pays for both to listen to the other, to ensure they’re complimenting each other’s forces and combat potential as much as possible, to maximise damage to the enemy.

After all, it’s all fine and well for the Astartes to go jump down throat of the enemy high command, wiping it out entirely. But if the Guard aren’t in a position to capitalise on the ensuing confusion and anarchy, it could all be for nought.

Consider the classic Orky problem - death of Warboss and his best mates = loss of cohesion until the new pecking order is established via the time tested method of Extreme Fisticuffs.

If the Astartes are lucky? They’ll take out the obvious successors in the same strike. But, if a single Big Boss was elsewhere? The length of the disruption may be quite limited.

Hence, when attempting that? You really need the Guard or other forces to apply their own pressure, in the hope of grinding the remaining Ork forces down into ever smaller warbands, whilst the Astartes pull back, ready to tackle any Ork forces which might be unifying under a new Warboss.

This is what I’m convinced The Emperor intended after Ullanor. You can’t really eradicate Orks. But what you can do is break them so utterly in a cataclysmic engagement that what remains becomes a pretty manageable threat. Something you only need a modest fleet to bombard from orbit when it looks like they’re building ships of their own and that. Stop them building up the critical mass needed for another Waaagh! of significant proportion.