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So, the Primarchs are these superhuman demigods, but in a very greek/norse flawed human way. There have certainly been a fair share of screw ups from across the board during the Horus Heresy (and things leading up to it) and I was curious what people thought the worst one was.

There are three main points to consider here. #1. How terrible an effect it had for their side? How many forces did they squander, or how large an opportunity slipped by. #2. How preventable was it? With the information that those involved at the time had, should they have known better than to make the decision that they did? #3. Was it actually a tactical issue? Thinks like the Edict of Nikea and the raising of Monarchia were political decisions not tactical ones, and probably deserve their own category.

My pick is the Burning of Prospero:
For Effects: Russ lost a considerable number of his Space Wolves and Sisters of Silence, as well as some Custodes. Also, not only did he wipe out an entire allied Legion of whom were a considerable force multiplier, but did so in such a brutal way that he hand delivered their remnants to Horus' cause.
For Reasons: Russ was ordered to return Magnus to Terra. They faced no resistance on the entire route to Prospero. Constantine Valdor urged Russ patience, they had no provocation at all from the Thousdand Sons and were told not to fight unless they resisted. However, since Magnus was prevented from picking up the space phone for a few hours, Russ was disrespected and that was all the reason he needed to disobey a direct order from the Emperor and wipe out a full planet of allies that he personally didn't like.

Other things I considered:
- Angorn dropping down to the surface of Istvaan III because someone called him a coward, thus preventing Horus from just bombing the loyalists into oblivion. Yes this lost them a lot of forces, but the time delay didn't really impact the next phase of their operations on Istvaan V.
- The Lion giving the siege weapons to Purterabo. Yeah, this was a considerable force multiplier, but not as much as a whole Legion of Psykers, and he had no reason to suspect Purterabo at the time.
- Alpharius and Omegon siding with the Cabal: While this was also a massive force multiplier for the Traitors, it's hard to even be exactly sure what their intentions were, and thus hard to say how successful they were at them. However (at least how it's portrayed in the novel Legion) they really should have known better and I'd consider this one a close second.

Correction on Prospero, Valdor did not caution Russ or attempt to stop him after receiving Horus's new command.

Russ even attempted one last gambit to have Magnus surrender by telling Kasper Hawser who was a suspected Hidden One agent about the fleet. It was the unfortunate case that Hawser was a pawn of the Changeling specifically placed to enhance suspicion of the Thousand Sons and was never actually a Hidden One.

The whole point of Prospero is that Russ had counsel from those who wished to see the Thousand Sons destroyed, Horus and Valdor, while Magnus was so sure of his deserved guilt he accepted death rather than attempt to atone properly.

Just….Angron in general.

Whilst one of the more sympathetic characters (forced to serve increasingly awful, uncaring masters), when he is given a bit of freedom? He goes ape every single time.

Now, I can’t and won’t pin that on Angron. Thanks to the Butcher’s Nails I don’t think anyone could ever accuse him of being in his right mind.

But going right back to Just Before The Beginning? Horus should’ve smote Erebus for interfering whilst he was crocked on Davin. That was the tipping point. Horus felt overwhelmed by the responsibilities of being Warmaster, and got it into his head he wasn’t allowed to make any mistakes. But it was Erebus pouring poison in his ear, whilst pretending to be someone else that pushed Horus over the edge.

Everything Magnus did.

Lion's decision leave Sotha without proper army and leaning to sneaky strategy. Not only they loose Pharos but also welcome Tyranids into the Galaxy. If there initially proper defense things gonna be different

 kabaakaba wrote:
Lion's decision leave Sotha without proper army and leaning to sneaky strategy. Not only they loose Pharos but also welcome Tyranids into the Galaxy. If there initially proper defense things gonna be different

Ohhh... yeah. That's a good one.

I don’t agree on that one, as the ramifications couldn’t have been foreseen.

It’s like if I park my car, properly and safely. Later that night, a driver sneezes, loses control of their car, ploughs into it, and is sent careening into the front room of someone across the road, then holding me responsible because “if I hadn’t parked there, the driver wouldn’t have hit anything when they sneezed”.

He may have been the Proximate Cause, but by no means can he be assigned Actual Blame.

That's not car parking. It's most precious object in the Galaxy East during heresy which hold 500 worlds altogether. Iirc Polux suggested that it's need proper garrison.

It’s more the luring the Hive Fleets thing. Way beyond possible prediction.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more the luring the Hive Fleets thing. Way beyond possible prediction.

Yeah, I agree that the Tyranids part doesn't count since there was no way to know that.

However, the Alpha Legion are (functionally) on the traitors side in the war. Especially after the attempted assassination of Guilliman, which was before this decision was made. They should have assumed that the Alpha Legion had all the intel and act accordingly. The Pharos was too valuable to risk on such a gamble, even if those forces were useful elsewhere.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Everything Magnus did.

Obligatory "Magnus did nothing wrong."

As to the original question: Pretty much everything the Emperor did, especially as it relates to the Primarchs. It really feels like if he had been a better dad, the Heresy just wouldn't have happened.

Only thing Empy do wrong is that He doesn't explain anything anyone but Malcador. With a bit of thrust and explanation there be no our setting at all

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Everything Magnus did.

Obligatory "Magnus did nothing wrong."

Thank you. I had a feeling the forum was going to leave me hanging.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Everything Magnus did.

Obligatory "Magnus did nothing wrong."

As to the original question: Pretty much everything the Emperor did, especially as it relates to the Primarchs. It really feels like if he had been a better dad, the Heresy just wouldn't have happened.

I’d argue The Emperor’s error was in acting as a father at all.

Granted, I lack the frame of reference to suggest another route. But? When you’re a father, your kids will of course look up to you. And sadly, it’s really, really, really easy to screw that up, even with the best of intentions. You can offer your kid the best in life. You can spend lots of quality time with them. But once the hormones start kicking in? Welcome to your home made, hopefully temporary, sociopath as they find their feet in life. You can put not a foot wrong, and still end up as parent to a wrong’un.

If he’d perhaps presented as a Literal, Factually Accurate Creator? It might still have gone wrong in other ways, but I doubt in the same way.

And I still subscribe to the notion that had the abduction and scattering of the Primarchs not happened? Then things could’ve been entirely different. Not just because none would’ve been raised By Abject Loonies. Instead being raised by something that knew what they are. And indeed, what they were for.

It doesn’t mean nothing would’ve gone wrong of course. But just being raised directly by your creator, who had at least a faint notion of your potential and how to properly nurture and encourage you to your full potential? I think the exact scale of any hypothetical rebellion would’ve been much smaller, and so way less catastrophic.

As a specific example, the way he handled Angron at the outset was probably not the best way to handle it. Suddenly, he has this giant, angry, and excessively violent person on his hands, and the first thing he does is piss him off even more.

With the amount of resentment the Emperor bred in the Primarchs, failure was inevitable.

...

Of course, the real reason the Emperor was a dick to half of his sons is so that they would have a reason to turn traitor and set up the lore of 40k. Cart before the horse, and all...

Istvaan 5.

I agree on the father thing.

Every space marine basically grows up without a father, being recruited as a child soldier into a brotherhood. Yet they all seem to function perfectly fine in their chapters.

The fact that the primarchs couldn't do their jobs because they needed a daddy that was nice to them is the dumbest plot decision of the story. 40k thrives on the lack of parental figures and suddenly this cohort of demi god superior beings fall to pieces when it happens to them?

The primarchs having issues with a lack of a daddy is the first and only time 40k as a setting decided that parental figures should be integral into the story. And it just so happens to happen in the most pivotal point in the Imperium's creation.

 Hellebore wrote:
I agree on the father thing.

Every space marine basically grows up without a father, being recruited as a child soldier into a brotherhood. Yet they all seem to function perfectly fine in their chapters.

The fact that the primarchs couldn't do their jobs because they needed a daddy that was nice to them is the dumbest plot decision of the story. 40k thrives on the lack of parental figures and suddenly this cohort of demi god superior beings fall to pieces when it happens to them?

The primarchs having issues with a lack of a daddy is the first and only time 40k as a setting decided that parental figures should be integral into the story. And it just so happens to happen in the most pivotal point in the Imperium's creation.

Is it that they needed a father?
Or that the father they had was an inhuman monster who treated them as nothing but tools?

That happens to marines though. The child soldiers will have older marines mentoring them, filling that father figure role. But they're being shaped into weapons of the emperor and told as much.

The Primarch whinging is at odds with the resilience marines have when put in the same place.


There's nothing about the relationship between the emperor and primarchs that is uniquely destructive in comparison to all the other social/familial horror humans are exposed to in the imperium.

The primarchs were all adults when the emperor found them, having been raised by foster parents already and in a context where they wouldn't know they weren't just a dude from the planet they were found on. Their identity was already built and solid before anything changed.

It's even worse to think that these problematic personality issues are caused by ADULTS having poor relationships with another adult. Horus' adult personality shouldn't have needed that father figure desperately enough for it to affect his decision making.

It is IMO just a really poor choice of narrative, overemphasising something that shouldn't be the fulcrum on which everything turns. It makes the primarchs seem less than human that this was such a big deal. Plenty of humans are better adjusted with worse upbringings than them.

The difference is those Sergeants or Captains don't go "Hey there son, we're going to take the galaxy together. Now leave me alone I have far more important things to do than deal with you."

And reducing the whole thing to daddy issues is annoying reductive.

While the daddy issue is pertinent, it's not exactly a tactical blunder, is it? They way I read the OP, they are asking for failures in a military context like specific engagements or manoeuvres.

I would put forward the Alpha Legion's abuses of their Iron Warrior allies at Epsilon-Stranivar and Mezoa.

Using them as bait and cannon fodder caused the only remaining IVth Legion commander, Narik Dreygur, to switch sides and join Cassian Dracos' Loyalists which lost the Traitor host the campaign for an extremely vital and powerful Loyalist holdfast.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Istvaan 5.

Right! That was the one I forgot to include in my initial post.

While Ferrus Mannus running face first into the traitors was certainly a tactical blunder, there isn't much he could have done that would have made the situation much better either. No matter what tactical plan he'd come up with, Istavaan 5 was always going to be a massacre. Perhaps he would have escaped personally with a few more warriors had he been far more cautious and methodical in his deployment, but at the end of the day, even if that was the case (and that's the best case scenario) it's still a far less value to the loyalist side than the entire Thousand Sons Legion, plus the losses on the Space Wolf side.


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 BertBert wrote:
While the daddy issue is pertinent, it's not exactly a tactical blunder, is it? They way I read the OP, they are asking for failures in a military context like specific engagements or manoeuvres.

You beat me to it. XD

That being said, maybe we should do another on the worst social or political blunders during the Heresy, there's certainly a lot of those too.


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 Gert wrote:
I would put forward the Alpha Legion's abuses of their Iron Warrior allies at Epsilon-Stranivar and Mezoa.

Using them as bait and cannon fodder caused the only remaining IVth Legion commander, Narik Dreygur, to switch sides and join Cassian Dracos' Loyalists which lost the Traitor host the campaign for an extremely vital and powerful Loyalist holdfast.

That is a solid choice, and was a pretty large blunder. He not only squandered one of, if not the largest Traitor battlegroups (not commander by a Primarch), and did also turn some of the traitor Iron Warriors back to the loyalist side through his callous disregard for their lives (that's saying something when an Iron Warrior is put off by that).

However, it is still on a much smaller scale than Prospero was.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is one other that looking over the whole Heresy, could MAYBE approach the level of tactical blunder of Prospero. I don't think it quite gets there due to the information that they both had on each other, but something worth considering.

Dorn / Alpharius at the Battle for Pluto.

So, while this isn't directly stated in the novel (so perhaps that alone makes it not count) the author stated that what Alpahrius was trying to tell Dorn before he was killed was that he was still loyal and that he had a plan to sabotage the traitors from within during the Siege of Terra and to strike them from behind at the opportune moment, basically making a second Dropsite Massacre. Dorn didn't hear any of this however because he killed him without allowing him to speak.

Had this plan come to fruition, not only would the loyalist victory have been far more sound, but the Emperor and Malcador may not have even been "killed" during the siege. Which is about the largest force multiplier you could imagine.

That being said, after all the betrayals and backstabs that had happened, how in the world did Alpharius think that he was going to get Dorn of all people to believe him. Since we never got to hear what he had to say, we'll never know. Perhaps he had some great plan, some irrefutable proof, but we'll never know, because he miscalculated in his ability to reach out to one of his most stubborn of brothers.

 Tawnis wrote:

However, it is still on a much smaller scale than Prospero was.

Prospero wasn't a blunder, though. It was an event specifically engineered to be the worst possible outcome for both sides. Everything happens because information is deliberately kept or changed for both sides.

The Wolves are lied to by Horus, egged on by Valdor's hatred of the Primarchs and the Astartes, and led to believe the XVth had infiltrated their Legion with psychic spies.

The Thousand Sons weren't even told Magnus had done anything wrong. Everyone who witnessed his folly died in the attempt or was slain by Magnus before he sent the Thousand Sons fleet away, shrouded the system's communications systems using his psychic powers, and ignored every entreaty by his sons to find out why Magnus hid himself away.

Horus even sends veteran mortal forces to Prospero under the guise of resupply to bolster the Thousand Sons' defences and keep the Wolves fighting for longer, while also sending Titans and a portion of his own Legion to fight against the XVth (and pick up boatloads of psychics for his own forces).

So, while this isn't directly stated in the novel (so perhaps that alone makes it not count) the author stated that what Alpahrius was trying to tell Dorn before he was killed was that he was still loyal and that he had a plan to sabotage the traitors from within during the Siege of Terra and to strike them from behind at the opportune moment, basically making a second Dropsite Massacre. Dorn didn't hear any of this however because he killed him without allowing him to speak.

I think you're maybe reading into it too much and placing too much theory into the actual story. The Alpha Legion had contingencies and plans within schemes and plots. There's nothing to suggest Alpharius was setting up a second massacre, and even if he was, the Alpha Legion wasn't bringing four Legions' worth of Astartes to the Imperium's aid.

On the Isstvan Atrocity. An open question.

We know that Angron did what Angron does, and wanted to ensure the job was done very personally.

Given absolutely no one could credibly say Angron was ever in his right mind? Whilst it would’ve been a sizeable dent in Horus’ forces, could he not have simply abandoned Angron and his World Eaters to it, and taken the rest of the freshly turned traitor forces away.

Horus had gone to some lengths to disguise and obfuscate his traitorous intentions. Not just Prospero, but ensuring certain Brothers he knew were exceptionally unlikely to ever turn, and their Legions were like….well over there and out the way.

And if speed and surprise might’ve been the key to a successful rebellion? Perhaps cutting that loss and then going hell for leather toward Terra, before anyone had a proper chance to react, might’ve seen a very different outcome?

 Gert wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

However, it is still on a much smaller scale than Prospero was.

Prospero wasn't a blunder, though. It was an event specifically engineered to be the worst possible outcome for both sides. Everything happens because information is deliberately kept or changed for both sides.

The Wolves are lied to by Horus, egged on by Valdor's hatred of the Primarchs and the Astartes, and led to believe the XVth had infiltrated their Legion with psychic spies.

The Thousand Sons weren't even told Magnus had done anything wrong. Everyone who witnessed his folly died in the attempt or was slain by Magnus before he sent the Thousand Sons fleet away, shrouded the system's communications systems using his psychic powers, and ignored every entreaty by his sons to find out why Magnus hid himself away.

Horus even sends veteran mortal forces to Prospero under the guise of resupply to bolster the Thousand Sons' defences and keep the Wolves fighting for longer, while also sending Titans and a portion of his own Legion to fight against the XVth (and pick up boatloads of psychics for his own forces).

It was, but that doesn't mean that Russ couldn't and shouldn't have known better.

Yes, they were lied to by Horus and he was still very trusted at this point, that's fair. However, Russ' direct order from the Emperor was still to bring Magnus back to Terra. From what I recall, (though it has been many years since I read it) Valdor was, urging patience and dialogue instead of attacking Prospero, as per the Emperor's instructions. To be fair, I don't recall the psychic spies part.

Yeah, the Thousand Son's couldn't have known any better, so it's not on them. As you said though, Magnus sent the fleet away and removed all resistance to Russ' advance, something that IIRC, Valdor points out to him. Russ should be smart enough to understand that had Magnus been intent on resisting, he would have done so long before the fleet reached orbit.

And yes, Horus did exacerbate the conflict. One of his agents was the one who stopped Russ' communications from reaching Magus and opening a dialogue.

That all being said, it doesn't change the fact that Russ showed up with the task of apprehending Magnus, faced no resistance whatsoever, and when he didn't receive a response to his hails for a couple of hours, jumped straight to glassing the whole planet, before considering that there could be any other possible reason why Magnus wouldn't be able to respond. He never wanted a peaceful solution to the problem, he wanted and excuse to wipe them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Isstvan Atrocity. An open question.

We know that Angron did what Angron does, and wanted to ensure the job was done very personally.

Given absolutely no one could credibly say Angron was ever in his right mind? Whilst it would’ve been a sizeable dent in Horus’ forces, could he not have simply abandoned Angron and his World Eaters to it, and taken the rest of the freshly turned traitor forces away.

Horus had gone to some lengths to disguise and obfuscate his traitorous intentions. Not just Prospero, but ensuring certain Brothers he knew were exceptionally unlikely to ever turn, and their Legions were like….well over there and out the way.

And if speed and surprise might’ve been the key to a successful rebellion? Perhaps cutting that loss and then going hell for leather toward Terra, before anyone had a proper chance to react, might’ve seen a very different outcome?

Hmm, certainly possible. They would have arrived in system not long after the Eisenstein, so it's not like Terra would have had a lot of warning. That being said, Sol would still have been VERY well defended and reinforcements would have been constantly arriving once the word had gone out.

Also, didn't he need some Mcguffin or something on Molech first... I don't recall completely, it's been a while since I read that one.

 Tawnis wrote:
It was, but that doesn't mean that Russ couldn't and shouldn't have known better.

Yes, they were lied to by Horus and he was still very trusted at this point, that's fair. However, Russ' direct order from the Emperor was still to bring Magnus back to Terra. From what I recall, (though it has been many years since I read it) Valdor was, urging patience and dialogue instead of attacking Prospero, as per the Emperor's instructions. To be fair, I don't recall the psychic spies part.

Yeah, the Thousand Son's couldn't have known any better, so it's not on them. As you said though, Magnus sent the fleet away and removed all resistance to Russ' advance, something that IIRC, Valdor points out to him. Russ should be smart enough to understand that had Magnus been intent on resisting, he would have done so long before the fleet reached orbit.

And Horus changed the order. It was made very clear to the forces of the Imperium that, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in matters of war. To deny him would be to deny the Emperor.
As for Valdor, it depends on the source, and being HH, it's wildly different depending on who writes what.
Regarding the Thousand Sons fleet, the Censure Fleet was about to engage a Legion of sorcerers with powers largely unknown, led by the second most powerful Psyker humanity had ever seen. Add to the fact that the VIth suspected spies were hidden throughout the fleet, thanks to the Kasper Hawser scheme, they were even more likely to distrust the tactical situation than normal. Though given the size and strength of the Censure Fleet, it also wouldn't have made a whole lick of difference if the XVth had their ships.

That all being said, it doesn't change the fact that Russ showed up with the task of apprehending Magnus, faced no resistance whatsoever, and when he didn't receive a response to his hails for a couple of hours, jumped straight to glassing the whole planet, before considering that there could be any other possible reason why Magnus wouldn't be able to respond. He never wanted a peaceful solution to the problem, he wanted and excuse to wipe them out.

It's very important to remember why Russ was even there. Magnus didn't just do a naughty, he broke an edict of the Emperor himself, and this was the final command in the Edict of Nikea:
“Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.”
Break the edict and die. Magnus and his entire Legion were guilty, knew they were guilty, but kept going anyway because they all thought they knew better than everyone else. Russ didn't even need an excuse; he already had one.
And as Russ himself says:
Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’
The Emperor sent his executioner to Prospero and placed him in command of the Censure Fleet. He knew what he was doing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Isstvan Atrocity. An open question.

We know that Angron did what Angron does, and wanted to ensure the job was done very personally.

Given absolutely no one could credibly say Angron was ever in his right mind? Whilst it would’ve been a sizeable dent in Horus’ forces, could he not have simply abandoned Angron and his World Eaters to it, and taken the rest of the freshly turned traitor forces away.

Horus had gone to some lengths to disguise and obfuscate his traitorous intentions. Not just Prospero, but ensuring certain Brothers he knew were exceptionally unlikely to ever turn, and their Legions were like….well over there and out the way.

And if speed and surprise might’ve been the key to a successful rebellion? Perhaps cutting that loss and then going hell for leather toward Terra, before anyone had a proper chance to react, might’ve seen a very different outcome?

Angron getting stuck in against the Loyal Traitors on Isstvan 3 wasn't an assured win. Angron and the XIIth were good at killing, very good. But tactics were not their strong suit, as had been proven many times during the Crusade. It was not a guaranteed win.
Horus also needed Angron and the XIIth for the wider war effort, especially on Isstvan 5, where they would (alongside the Emperor's Children and Death Guard) serve as bait for the Loyalists, keeping the Sons of Horus fresh for the killing stroke.
Sure, the Eisenstein got away, but it fled into the roiling Warp with Traitor forces on board, damaged engines, and a failing Gellar field. It was divine providence (and plot) that the Seventy reached Dorn.
But Isstvan 3 also gave the Traitors a blooding of sorts. Not only did they have to kill Astartes combatants in open war, they had to kill the men they once called brothers. If they could kill them, they could kill anyone. A biff up compared to Horus's perfect plan but a biff up that still had merit.

Interesting execution.

For some reason I became most curious about the largest strategical errors after the defining opening dramas of the Horus Heresy, such as after Istvaan and the burning of Prospero. So, with the board set and the Warmaster grinding toward Terra and the Loyalists offering resistance, what were the worst mistakes on both sides?

 Gert wrote:

Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’
The Emperor sent his executioner to Prospero and placed him in command of the Censure Fleet. He knew what he was doing.

My read on this has always been that because it's what Russ wanted to do all along, he heard what he wanted to hear and interpreted his instructions to serve his own agenda. He did it all with the façade of only doing as he was commanded, as the Emperor willed, but all his actions in relation to the Thousand Sons previously say otherwise.

This was the self-serving nature of Russ that Horus played upon. He was the perfect patsy to the Warmaster's needs.


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 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Interesting execution.

For some reason I became most curious about the largest strategical errors after the defining opening dramas of the Horus Heresy, such as after Istvaan and the burning of Prospero. So, with the board set and the Warmaster grinding toward Terra and the Loyalists offering resistance, what were the worst mistakes on both sides?

Not counting any of the major inciting incidents, I'd say either Kabaakaba's comments on the loyalist's poor defense of Sotha, or Gert's on the traitor's debacles at Epsilon-Stranivar and Mezoa.

That quote is after Russ has made planetfall, and the Thousand Sons have shown just how much extra credit they've been doing since Nikea.

The difference between a tragic manipulation of the VIth and XVth and a tactical blunder is a pretty massive gulf.

Russ and Magnus didn't ignore one piece of intel that led to a failed campaign or battle; they were the center of a grand scheme by Horus and the Dark Gods intended to bloody the Wolves, break the Thousand Sons, and turn them to the embrace of Tzeentch.