The Case Against Allowing Forge World at Tournaments

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Blood and Slaughter**

Why be confrontational about it? Why not email the TO beforehand and ask him if he'll okay your lists?

**skkipper**

because $400 walking out the door is a stronger statement.

a question on the tournament forum has been posted but has gone unanswered.

**Blood and Slaughter**

Not really. You could easily explain that he could have '$400 walking in the door' by agreeing to your lists in an email.

**Oaka**

I wish I had 4-5 friends that would set aside an entire day to play or not play on your whim. I'd feel like a really nerdy gang leader.

**mrondeau**

1 - Some people do not want to play in tournaments where FW is allowed.
2 - Those people register for tournaments too.
3 - Trying to change the rules at the last minute is extremely disrespectful to them.
4 - Speaking for myself, if something like that happens (not just FW, any changes to the rules of the tournament), I immediately drop from the tournament, get a full refund for cause of false advertising and make it clear to the TOs that I would never bother with one of their events in the future.

Not that you care, since you obviously do not care about the other players and their enjoyment of the game.
The only things that matter to you is that you have your way and that you have fun.

**kronk**

Oaka wrote:
I wish I had 4-5 friends that would set aside an entire day to play or not play on your whim. I'd feel like a really nerdy gang leader.

This.

Man. This thread has certainly added to my Ignore list. Thanks for making it easy, people.

**skkipper**

mrondeau wrote:
1 - Some people do not want to play in tournaments where FW is allowed.
2 - Those people register for tournaments too.
3 - Trying to change the rules at the last minute is extremely disrespectful to them.
4 - Speaking for myself, if something like that happens (not just FW, any changes to the rules of the tournament), I immediately drop from the tournament, get a full refund for cause of false advertising and make it clear to the TOs that I would never bother with one of their events in the future.

Not that you care, since you obviously do not care about the other players and their enjoyment of the game.
The only things that matter to you is that you have your way and that you have fun.

You are correct i don't care about you. I am working to break the hate of forgeworld. people will continue to hate the new forgeworld rules with no good reason while people continue just to cram the most broken units in a codex in every list.
so forgeworld bad but broken stuff in a codex ok?
I am working towards change in my area to kill the hate.
the friends aren't throwing away a day but two days.
change is never easy.

**kronk**

You don't kill hate by Edited by Manchu.

**skkipper**

somebody tried that at a chicago gt a long time ago.

**Cruentus**

Its been an interesting read, all 29 pages.

I'm just sorry that Dkok lists have been beat-sticking it around the tourney scene that everyone is hating on them. Oh, that's right, they haven't.

Seriously, though, I'm sorry that my Dkok will likely never see a tournament. In 5th, everyone moaned about the Hades Drill (of which I have one). Now everyone is moaning about the artillery (of which I have 2 units of 3) - hardly what I'd call "spam". Yet at every turn, parts of my army are being 'disallowed' at tournies, when they're allowed at all, with zero actual data to back up their broken-ness.

It is refreshing to know that my $800+ dollars of models, bought for the cool factor, will be blacklisted, effectively saying that I actually can't play with my toys that I've spent good money on.

And no, I don't really want to run them as "Imperial Guard", I would like to run them as a siege regiment, since the models are all WYSIWYG.

Kudos to the tournies that are allowing FW, few though they may be.

**Oaka**

Sorry to hear your pain, Cruentus. I thought I had it bad with about 1/3 of my army being Forgeworld units, I can only imagine how much it sucks for those of you with full Death Korp or Elysian armies. Sadly, for the time being, you would have to use them as a regular IG army if you want to participate in a regular tournament.

I assume it would be quite easy, though, using Forgeworld IG units as a counts-as in the IG codex? At least on appearance, perhaps not effectiveness. I run into a constant problem trying to figure out what Kroot Great Knarlocs and Kroot Knarloc Riders could possibly represent in a Tau codex. Like you also said, I've probably spent $800+ in Forgeworld models (4 Great Knarlocs, 9 Knarloc Riders) and it really sucks not getting to use them for what they actually are.

I made my army many years ago, and since then have moved and don't have the casual friends who will let me use Forgeworld units, and I rely on tournaments just to network with new groups. I would love it if more people looked at the competitive gaming scene and realized we're not MtG, we have an additional hobby built in with models, conversions, painting, bases, etc. You can't personalize your Magic cards, so competitive players should look towards those type of games.

**4oursword**

Cruentus wrote:
Its been an interesting read, all 29 pages.

I'm just sorry that Dkok lists have been beat-sticking it around the tourney scene that everyone is hating on them. Oh, that's right, they haven't.

Seriously, though, I'm sorry that my Dkok will likely never see a tournament. In 5th, everyone moaned about the Hades Drill (of which I have one). Now everyone is moaning about the artillery (of which I have 2 units of 3) - hardly what I'd call "spam". Yet at every turn, parts of my army are being 'disallowed' at tournies, when they're allowed at all, with zero actual data to back up their broken-ness.

It is refreshing to know that my $800+ dollars of models, bought for the cool factor, will be blacklisted, effectively saying that I actually can't play with my toys that I've spent good money on.

And no, I don't really want to run them as "Imperial Guard", I would like to run them as a siege regiment, since the models are all WYSIWYG.

Kudos to the tournies that are allowing FW, few though they may be.

Exactly what he said in every way. Although well done for amassing such a cool list.
Ooh, my thousandth post!

**OverwatchCNC**

kronk wrote:
You don't kill hate by Edited by Manchu.

I literally just laughed out loud in a conference and everyone looked at me.

Kronk your comment and my own disregard for what is being talked about just got me in trouble and it was worth it.

**Phazael**

Oaka wrote:
Sorry to hear your pain, Cruentus. I thought I had it bad with about 1/3 of my army being Forgeworld units, I can only imagine how much it sucks for those of you with full Death Korp or Elysian armies. Sadly, for the time being, you would have to use them as a regular IG army if you want to participate in a regular tournament.

I assume it would be quite easy, though, using Forgeworld IG units as a counts-as in the IG codex? At least on appearance, perhaps not effectiveness. I run into a constant problem trying to figure out what Kroot Great Knarlocs and Kroot Knarloc Riders could possibly represent in a Tau codex. Like you also said, I've probably spent $800+ in Forgeworld models (4 Great Knarlocs, 9 Knarloc Riders) and it really sucks not getting to use them for what they actually are.

I made my army many years ago, and since then have moved and don't have the casual friends who will let me use Forgeworld units, and I rely on tournaments just to network with new groups. I would love it if more people looked at the competitive gaming scene and realized we're not MtG, we have an additional hobby built in with models, conversions, painting, bases, etc. You can't personalize your Magic cards, so competitive players should look towards those type of games.

Run them as counts as Eldar allies. The Gnarlock can be a Wraithlord and the riders jetbikes. Alternatively, you could make them counts as Daemons. The options are there to play them as something else, for those events not allowing FW.

**Cruentus**

Yes, but we shouldn't be reduced to "this knarloc is a wraithlord" or to have someone look askance as the 'kroot riders" zip 36" across the board on their knarlocs. Its hard enough to know what is what on the table with allies and to remember when things aren't wysiwyg (or close enough).

And has been mentioned before, I don't think its FW per se, but the problems that allies brings up (spamming artillery in a regular IG list) in addition to the usual Valks, etc., and the problems that units raise when spammed. Which, again, as mentioned above, when used in non-tourny lists, and in moderation, are fine. But the tourney changes behaviors. So it ultimately comes back to the players themselves..

**AndrewC**

skkipper wrote:
You are correct i don't care about you. I am working to break the hate of forgeworld. people will continue to hate the new forgeworld rules with no good reason while people continue just to cram the most broken units in a codex in every list.
so forgeworld bad but broken stuff in a codex ok?
I am working towards change in my area to kill the hate.
the friends aren't throwing away a day but two days.
change is never easy.

So why should anyone care about you? And why should the TO care about your $400? The other $3600 decided to abide by the rules, what do you think they're going to do when they see the base-line rules change on/against them. He's going to see them walk out the door instead of you.

I'm very sorry to break this to you, but you're not going to 'break the hate', in fact you're going to increase the hate by taking hardline stances that only hurt your position and serve to reinforce the negative view the majority have of FW effectiveness and the TFG mentality that is unfairly ascribed to those of us who do want to use FW.

Please temper your attitude with some compromise because you're doing no-one any favours.

Cheers

Andrew

**schadenfreude**

Has anybody ever seen strong arm tactics work at a gt? I would think attempts to bully a TO would result in a negative visceral reaction. The principle of the TO being in charge of his own tournament means more to most TO than $400, hell most of the players spent more than 400 on travel, food, booze, and lodging when going to a GT. The worst part is you're talking about burning bridges for not just yourself but all players that want to use forge world over being allowed to take units that are balanced enough that any TO that's going to approve fw on a case by case basis would green light.

Case by case is as good as it's going to get. With advanced notice and open advance discussion with the player base most of the balanced fw units have a good chance. Open all fw lists and units just isn't going to fly. 6 ac sabres, 6 lc sabres, and 9 earth shakers is 1330 points for 102 wounds that are t7. Tell me again why fw lists should always be allowed and how a case by case basis is bad.

**TechMarine1**

Has anyone considered that most of the FW rule (army lists) were written for older editions of the rules and do not appear to have been updated?

**kronk**

That's been brought up. Someone mentioned that the FW folks were updating the lists for 6th and would be releasing PDF's in the near future.

Not 100% sure, but I'm hopeful that it's true!

**Phazael**

schadenfreude wrote:
Has anybody ever seen strong arm tactics work at a gt? I would think attempts to bully a TO would result in a negative visceral reaction. The principle of the TO being in charge of his own tournament means more to most TO than $400, hell most of the players spent more than 400 on travel, food, booze, and lodging when going to a GT. The worst part is you're talking about burning bridges for not just yourself but all players that want to use forge world over being allowed to take units that are balanced enough that any TO that's going to approve fw on a case by case basis would green light.

Case by case is as good as it's going to get. With advanced notice and open advance discussion with the player base most of the balanced fw units have a good chance. Open all fw lists and units just isn't going to fly. 6 ac sabres, 6 lc sabres, and 9 earth shakers is 1330 points for 102 wounds that are t7. Tell me again why fw lists should always be allowed and how a case by case basis is bad.

Yeah, pretty much this. Again, I am actually pro FW, but the reality is that at a tournament most of the people you are going to see are like skipper; e.g. wishing flyers never existed, spamming the broken stuff only, and being extremely pushy about it. I think 6th is too volitile at the moment to try and set that sort of precedent and what these guys are essentially trying to do is work the refs on the issue. And whats more, they cannot even agree on what they want in the game, such as the (actually pretty balanced) alternate lists found in the Badab and Myenmar supplements somehow being not ok but sabre hammer is. Most of it is the usual angst of edition change where people want to do anything they can to keep the status quo (which in this case means nerfing flyers in any way possible) rather than take the steps to modify their army for the realities of the new edition. Unfortunately this included pushing TOs around and making an already thankless job even less enticing.

To skipper I say this: If you feel that your entry fee and the $500ish you layed down on Forgeworld entitles you to dictate what the entire rest of the room does, then you are out of your mind. TOs typically put a lot of their personal time and money into the operation of their events with little in the way of tangible returns. And you want to throw a tantrum and try and make it harder for this guy to break even just because you can't play with some resin (that you chose to buy knowing it was outside of the normal codecii, I might add) at his event?

Edited by Manchu.

Again, 6th probably needs some soft scores back if you guys want to let FW in whole hog (or even not, really), until people settle down into what does and does not work in the game.

**Breng77**

skkipper wrote:
mrondeau wrote:
1 - Some people do not want to play in tournaments where FW is allowed.
2 - Those people register for tournaments too.
3 - Trying to change the rules at the last minute is extremely disrespectful to them.
4 - Speaking for myself, if something like that happens (not just FW, any changes to the rules of the tournament), I immediately drop from the tournament, get a full refund for cause of false advertising and make it clear to the TOs that I would never bother with one of their events in the future.

Not that you care, since you obviously do not care about the other players and their enjoyment of the game.
The only things that matter to you is that you have your way and that you have fun.

You are correct i don't care about you. I am working to break the hate of forgeworld. people will continue to hate the new forgeworld rules with no good reason while people continue just to cram the most broken units in a codex in every list.
so forgeworld bad but broken stuff in a codex ok?
I am working towards change in my area to kill the hate.
the friends aren't throwing away a day but two days.
change is never easy.

As a TO, how I would react to your public boycott would largely depend on you. If your intent is to show up and ask about FW and if I say no you leave in peace with your money that is your choice and it would have no effect on me whatsoever. If you make a big scene I would kick you out and likely ban you from attending any event I ran in the future. You seem to think TOs are very concerned with money. News flash running a tournament is largely a losing venture on that front already, and while I would like to break even, I am not willing to put up with BS to do so. I would much prefer an email discourse in a gentlemanly manner prior to the event. Currently I don't allow Forgeworld, however, it is my intent to poll my players for their preferance. If they say that they want FW I will add it. If they are opposed I won't.

If you want FW in tournaments in your area, heres the best way...start running events with FW, instead of trying to force your views on others.

**skkipper**

Breng77 wrote:

As a TO, how I would react to your public boycott would largely depend on you. If your intent is to show up and ask about FW and if I say no you leave in peace with your money that is your choice and it would have no effect on me whatsoever. If you make a big scene I would kick you out and likely ban you from attending any event I ran in the future. You seem to think TOs are very concerned with money. News flash running a tournament is largely a losing venture on that front already, and while I would like to break even, I am not willing to put up with BS to do so. I would much prefer an email discourse in a gentlemanly manner prior to the event. Currently I don't allow Forgeworld, however, it is my intent to poll my players for their preferance. If they say that they want FW I will add it. If they are opposed I won't.

If you want FW in tournaments in your area, heres the best way...start running events with FW, instead of trying to force your views on others.

my flgs allows full on FW with no problems in there day events. I am friends with this TO and he will say yes or no and I will walk away. his last event I played my grot tanks to represent warbuggies but since then I have added the three ork flyers to my list so the buggies no longer fit.

**RiTides**

But can you explain why you can't have that conversation ahead of time, especially if he is your friend?

**skkipper**

RiTides wrote:
But can you explain why you can't have that conversation ahead of time, especially if he is your friend?

I have asked a question on the tournament website waiting for a response. I don't see him very much since he closed his store a few years ago.

**Breng77**

skkipper wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

As a TO, how I would react to your public boycott would largely depend on you. If your intent is to show up and ask about FW and if I say no you leave in peace with your money that is your choice and it would have no effect on me whatsoever. If you make a big scene I would kick you out and likely ban you from attending any event I ran in the future. You seem to think TOs are very concerned with money. News flash running a tournament is largely a losing venture on that front already, and while I would like to break even, I am not willing to put up with BS to do so. I would much prefer an email discourse in a gentlemanly manner prior to the event. Currently I don't allow Forgeworld, however, it is my intent to poll my players for their preferance. If they say that they want FW I will add it. If they are opposed I won't.

If you want FW in tournaments in your area, heres the best way...start running events with FW, instead of trying to force your views on others.

my flgs allows full on FW with no problems in there day events. I am friends with this TO and he will say yes or no and I will walk away. his last event I played my grot tanks to represent warbuggies but since then I have added the three ork flyers to my list so the buggies no longer fit.

See that is important to know, relationship with a TO means a lot.

**Evil Lamp 6**

Cruentus wrote:And has been mentioned before, I don't think its FW per se, but the problems that allies brings up (spamming artillery in a regular IG list) in addition to the usual Valks, etc., and the problems that units raise when spammed. Which, again, as mentioned above, when used in non-tourny lists, and in moderation, are fine. But the tourney changes behaviors. So it ultimately comes back to the players themselves..

schadenfreude wrote:Case by case is as good as it's going to get. With advanced notice and open advance discussion with the player base most of the balanced fw units have a good chance. Open all fw lists and units just isn't going to fly. 6 ac sabres, 6 lc sabres, and 9 earth shakers is 1330 points for 102 wounds that are t7. Tell me again why fw lists should always be allowed and how a case by case basis is bad.

The above sums up my feelings about including FW in tournaments. Instead of seeing a variety of the wonderfully sculpted FW models, I see the inclusion of FW just allowing the WAAC players to add more to their lists either as their army proper or through allies and we will instead see the same couple of units spammed to deal with current metas. For every person that just wants to run their new awesome looking FW toy, there will be that many more just gaming the system and will mostly see those same 4-5 units that are admittedly "broken" by the Pro FW people. I do not see how including FW will "fix" things or make them better. If anything it will just change, if even just in a small capacity, what is spammed already. I do not have any of the FW books, but given an opportunity to go over them, I'm sure I could find or pick out the few units that would be spammed by seemingly most tournament players if FW models were allowed.

One foreseeable counter-argument against my view would be that the current tournaments that do allow FW have not seen this happen yet. My further argument against that would be that because tournaments that allow FW are not mainstream enough for the people that spending the money that one would need to spam such units would be a waste to possibly compete and win in the few tournaments that do so. As soon as FW goes "mainstream" I see that changing. It would suddenly become worthwhile to get those same few units and bring them as they would then be allowed at many, many more tournaments, if not all. I would like to be wrong in this.

**Peregrine**

schadenfreude wrote:
Open all fw lists and units just isn't going to fly. 6 ac sabres, 6 lc sabres, and 9 earth shakers is 1330 points for 102 wounds that are t7. Tell me again why fw lists should always be allowed and how a case by case basis is bad.

You seem pretty confident about that statement. Has the Sabre/artillery spam list consistently dominated major tournaments? Have you even done a comprehensive playtesting process against the list (IOW, played every major tournament list against it dozens of times)? Or are you just guessing that it's going to be bad, so we'd better ban it?

PS: that's the level of proof of overpoweredness required before WOTC will even consider banning something in MTG. But why do something the way a real competitive game does it?

**schadenfreude**

Peregrine wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
Open all fw lists and units just isn't going to fly. 6 ac sabres, 6 lc sabres, and 9 earth shakers is 1330 points for 102 wounds that are t7. Tell me again why fw lists should always be allowed and how a case by case basis is bad.

You seem pretty confident about that statement. Has the Sabre/artillery spam list consistently dominated major tournaments? Have you even done a comprehensive playtesting process against the list (IOW, played every major tournament list against it dozens of times)? Or are you just guessing that it's going to be bad, so we'd better ban it?

PS: that's the level of proof of overpoweredness required before WOTC will even consider banning something in MTG. But why do something the way a real competitive game does it?

You made no case that it wouldn't dominate, you only made the case wotc will only ban mtg cards after they fail extensive play testing in the community. The problem with your logic is wizards of the coast extensively play tests mtg before it is released, while forge world is far less worried about play balancing because releasing fun new content as fast as possible seems to be their main priority. So far it's been 11 volumes of imperial armor and 4 other books in 9 years, most of which is new content. The spead it's released at is faster than 40k and the play testing is less extensive. Comparing play testing quality control of wizards of the coast to forge world is like comparing the water quality of San Diego tap water to the water quality of Tijuana tap water.

**Peregrine**

schadenfreude wrote:
You made no case that it wouldn't dominate

Whether or not it's overpowered or not isn't the point. It's very simple:

In MTG, a real competitive game, banning is an absolute last resort and only done after the card(s) in question have clearly proven to be overpowered to a point that they break the game, and there are very demanding standards for what counts as "breaking". If a card is "too powerful", you deal with it or find another game. The vast majority of the time crying about how "OP" something is and demanding a ban would just get you laughed at.

In 40k, a "competitive" game, banning seems to be the first choice. Not only are people demanding a ban for a unit that has no proven record of being harmful to the metagame, they're demanding that TOs also ban everything else the authors created. It's absolutely laughable that the TOs in a real competitive game would behave like this.

So far it's been 11 volumes of imperial armor and 4 other books in 9 years, most of which is new content. The spead it's released at is faster than 40k and the play testing is less extensive.

Err, no.

First of all, it's not new content. Most of an IA book is just fluff, and most of the rest are just re-used codex units. And the "other" books are entirely old units compiled into a more accessible format, with some minor balance changes. It's a lot of work for the fluff authors/photographers/etc, but in terms of actual new rules content there really isn't all that much.

Second, what makes you think the release schedule has anything to do with playtesting instead of GW optimizing their release schedule for maximum profit (for example, not releasing a codex at the same time as a new wave of models)? As GW themselves admit they don't do competitive playtesting at all, so suggesting that GW is deliberately slowing down their release schedule to allow plenty of playtesting time is just absurd.

**Breng77**

Peregrine wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
You made no case that it wouldn't dominate

Whether or not it's overpowered or not isn't the point. It's very simple:

In MTG, a real competitive game, banning is an absolute last resort and only done after the card(s) in question have clearly proven to be overpowered to a point that they break the game, and there are very demanding standards for what counts as "breaking". If a card is "too powerful", you deal with it or find another game. The vast majority of the time crying about how "OP" something is and demanding a ban would just get you laughed at.

In 40k, a "competitive" game, banning seems to be the first choice. Not only are people demanding a ban for a unit that has no proven record of being harmful to the metagame, they're demanding that TOs also ban everything else the authors created. It's absolutely laughable that the TOs in a real competitive game would behave like this.

So far it's been 11 volumes of imperial armor and 4 other books in 9 years, most of which is new content. The spead it's released at is faster than 40k and the play testing is less extensive.

Err, no.

First of all, it's not new content. Most of an IA book is just fluff, and most of the rest are just re-used codex units. And the "other" books are entirely old units compiled into a more accessible format, with some minor balance changes. It's a lot of work for the fluff authors/photographers/etc, but in terms of actual new rules content there really isn't all that much.

Second, what makes you think the release schedule has anything to do with playtesting instead of GW optimizing their release schedule for maximum profit (for example, not releasing a codex at the same time as a new wave of models)? As GW themselves admit they don't do competitive playtesting at all, so suggesting that GW is deliberately slowing down their release schedule to allow plenty of playtesting time is just absurd.

Comparing play testing quality control of wizards of the coast to forge world is like comparing the water quality of San Diego tap water to the water quality of Tijuana tap water.