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 daedalus wrote:
What the methodology behind these tests? You're referencing trials, so I'm assuming you're using some sort of random or pseudorandom numbers. Where are you sourcing them from, out of curiosity? Are you consuming new numbers each time or are you reusing the same random number set for each set of trials?

That was done with a python script.

I've done most of them so far with excel because it makes pretty graphs, but excel makes my computer cry and python is faster.

I model a shooting attack and record the number of wounds inflicted. Then, I have it do that a couple thousand times and total up the results.

I generate a new set of numbers every time, as well.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I can't think of many situations when the tank would need to move up though. It's not a plausible situation. If anything, the tank would move in any direction but. It could even kite them pretty well, since it can fire at BS while moving (significantly faster than the conscripts at that).

Also, my math shows your conscript unit at 150 + 30 + 31. Unless you're taking something different than I expect. Company commander and commissar?


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Which, I think, is something else about the Russ that is getting overlooked here. They're surprisingly mobile. They're moving almost twice as fast as they could in previous editions and still fire (and at full BS). Outrunning infantry while remaining able to fire is definitely something to consider.

Platoon commander is 20, IIRC.

Anyway, a Leman Russ may have range, but other tanks don't necessarily do. Particularly the vehicles you care about killing, which are called upon to advance on your lines anyway.

Conscripts aren't good at killing tanks, at optimal range or otherwise. A Leman Russ battle cannon is worse at it, though.

What you really want are Lascannon HWT's and Devil Dogs, by the look of it. A Devil Dog is terrifying this edition: it get 1D3+1 shots at S8, AP-4, that do 2D6B1 damage when they hit at 12" and 1D6 a 24", on a 11 wound platform that moves 12" a turn. And it totals up to 128 points. Lascannon teams are slower and more fragile, but they're only 72 points for a group of 3.

S'cuse me, but where you getting the 1D3+1 shots from? All I can see is that it does D3 shots.

Doctoralex wrote:


S'cuse me, but where you getting the 1D3+1 shots from? All I can see is that it does D3 shots.

Multimelta, in the hull.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:He's using a platoon commander for this imaginary army.

Have you run a simulation for a battle cannon vs. something that is T6 or 7 with a 3+ or 4+ save? Also, how about at BS 3+ while rerolling 1's?

Yes on the first two. 3+ and Re-rolling 1's is mutually exclusive, because the TC can't order other TC's, but here:

They actually aren't mutually exclusive as you can either use Pask to give 2 Tank Commanders orders or just sit them next to Yarrick.

jaxor1983 wrote:


They actually aren't mutually exclusive as you can either use Pask to give 2 Tank Commanders orders or just sit them next to Yarrick.

Here you go then. 3+, re-roll 1's.
1: 1260 12.6%
2: 1440 14.4%
3: 1761 17.61%
4: 850 8.5%
5: 690 6.9%
6: 549 5.49%
7: 248 2.48%
8: 161 1.61%
9: 90 0.9%
10: 45 0.45%
11: 15 0.15%
12: 7 0.07%
13: 3 0.03%
14: 4 0.04%
15: 1 0.01%
16: 0 0.0%
17: 0 0.0%
18: 0 0.0%

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


That was done with a python script.

I've done most of them so far with excel because it makes pretty graphs, but excel makes my computer cry and python is faster.

I model a shooting attack and record the number of wounds inflicted. Then, I have it do that a couple thousand times and total up the results.

I generate a new set of numbers every time, as well.

It's an interesting idea. I know python has an R module, so you could probably build the visualization with that and render entirely without excel, if you cared enough about the graph to begin with anyway. I might try to set up something similar.

What's your OS? I ask because I'm wondering about the randomness issue. I ask because Windows RNG typically is remarkably bad at pulling off random properly, and it kicks in earlier than you'd think it does.

Well that's pretty good. With a lascannon and 2 plasma cannons, a bs3+ rerolling 1's should shut down a transport or kill a carnifex each turn.

Of course, if you've got the ability to reroll 1's (and a gakload of CP as IG should have) there's no reason to take a battle cannon over an executioner except for range.

Yep.

Speaking of plasma-russes, I've noticed a small detail about them and the 'Emergency Plasma Vents'.

Basically, they will only activate if you fail a roll to hit of one for the plasma cannon sponsons.

The Executioner plasma cannon will simply do D6 mortal wounds on a roll of a 1 to hit.
While this can still be painful, it is nowhere nearly as bad as the 6 mortal wounds + permanently destroyed plasma cannons.

 daedalus wrote:


It's an interesting idea. I know python has an R module, so you could probably build the visualization with that and render entirely without excel, if you cared enough about the graph to begin with anyway. I might try to set up something similar.

What's your OS? I ask because I'm wondering about the randomness issue. I ask because Windows RNG typically is remarkably bad at pulling off random properly, and it kicks in earlier than you'd think it does.

Windows. I just have a crappy laptop. I have an even crappier one that runs Linux, but I'd probably melt it if I tried to do anything more complex than browse the internet.

Doctoralex wrote:
Yep.

Speaking of plasma-russes, I've noticed a small detail about them and the 'Emergency Plasma Vents'.

Basically, they will only activate if you fail a roll to hit of one for the plasma cannon sponsons.

The Executioner plasma cannon will simply do D6 mortal wounds on a roll of a 1 to hit.
While this can still be painful, it is nowhere nearly as bad as the 6 mortal wounds + permanently destroyed plasma cannons.

That's a good point - it makes the executioner turrets much less scary.

For those who haven't seen it. there's a rumour that IG will get some nerfs in a day-1 faq:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/728560.page

 vipoid wrote:
For those who haven't seen it. there's a rumour that IG will get some nerfs in a day-1 faq:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/728560.page

I suppose anything's possible, but I'll believe it when I see it. I do not believe they will increase the price of conscripts.

 daedalus wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
For those who haven't seen it. there's a rumour that IG will get some nerfs in a day-1 faq:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/728560.page

I suppose anything's possible, but I'll believe it when I see it. I do not believe they will increase the price of conscripts.

I really do not want to believe this, but knowing GW's track record with us....


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 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
...
Chimeras?
There was ONE chimera on the entire battlefield, and I assume it contained a command section.
Your 'Mech guard' army may or may not have done well, but that is not the point people are debating. People are looking at the damage output of our tanks, and finding them woefully lacking. And of certain units (like Ogryns) and finding them lacking for the cost.
The artillery? The Manticore CARRIED the Basilisk in terms of effectiveness.

That is what people are debating, not that one or two aspects are good, but the fact that the vast majority of the army (barring those bits people did not usually have) stink.

There were 3 Chimeras and they all had veterans in them. Maybe the problem is we are talking about different batreps.

I will take your word for it, but I only saw one Chimera and a pair of Hellhounds. That said I did just skip through most of it as I dont have two and a half hours to dedicate to a battlereport against a Necron player whom seemed to be trying to lose.

They can't really up the price of conscripts whithout making them cost the same as an infantry squad. Unless of course we're doing fractions of points now.

 Blacksails wrote:
They can't really up the price of conscripts whithout making them cost the same as an infantry squad. Unless of course we're doing fractions of points now.

They did it in Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition. Which is also the edition in which they decided to make Light Cavalry untouchable, and give all the popular/marysue (looking at you elves) armies cheap shooting units in their core slots. In a game which was based around the late medieval/early renaissance period.
And then they wondered why the game tanked.
Well that and they massively upped the number of models needed, to the point that 'elite' armies like Chaos Warriors started needing triple digits worth of figures.

HWTs are well priced for their firepower, but they're more than just fragile, they're made of glass. 6 wounds at T3 and a 5+ save won't last through turn 2 with even trivial firepower thrown at it. Cover barely helps.

Durability does matter. A HTW that fires for 1 turn is less useful than a Russ that fires for 4. A Russ in cover is an absolute bugger to kill.


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 Blacksails wrote:
They can't really up the price of conscripts whithout making them cost the same as an infantry squad. Unless of course we're doing fractions of points now.

I think the only thing out of whack with conscripts is the efficiency of orders on them compared to normal squads. Changing the conscript max unit size to say 30 would solve most issues IMO.

My general policy for independent HWS is going to be to use them for mortars, or heavy bolters at the most. That way it's not a big loss when they die, and if they're mortars they can extend their lifespan by hiding out of LoS.

Expensive stuff is going to be embedded in an infantry squad so they can have 8 ablative wounds, or mounted on a vehicle.

With regard to heavy weapons, which do you think are best - lascannons, missile launchers or autocannons?

MaxT wrote:
I think the only thing out of whack with conscripts is the efficiency of orders on them compared to normal squads. Changing the conscript max unit size to say 30 would solve most issues IMO.

I could also see an added rule to the effect of: "Whenever this unit receives an order, roll a dice. On a 4+ the order is received and acted upon as normal; on a 1-3, the order is received but has no effect."

Reflects their poor discipline compared to regular troops, and keeps them from being reliable order buff targets.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to heavy weapons, which do you think are best - lascannons, missile launchers or autocannons?

For guard? Lascannons or GTFO. Space marines? Not sure yet.

LET'S DO SOME MATH!

First off, let's do vs Guard and equivalent (T3 W1 5+).
Lascannon 0.42 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.78 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.42 wounds
Autocannon 0.69 wounds

Next let's do vs Marines and equivalent (T4 W1 3+)
Lascannon 0.35 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.29 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.28 wounds
Autocannon 0.33 wounds

Vs Ork Boyz (T4 W1 6+)
Lascannon 0.42 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.73 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.42 wounds
Autocannon 0.66 wounds

Vs Terminators (T4 W2 2+ 5++)
Lascannon 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.15 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.73 wounds
Autocannon 0.44 wounds

Vs Rhinos (T7 W10 3+)
Lascannon 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.19 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.78 wounds
Autocannon 0.5 wounds

Vs Leman Russes (T8 W12 3+)
Lascannon 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.10 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.58 wounds
Autocannon 0.17 wounds

Vs SM Bikes (T5 W2 3+)
Lascannon 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.19 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.78 wounds
Autocannon 0.66 wounds

Vs Warbikers (T5 W2 4+)
Lascannon 1.17 wounds
Missile Launcher (frag) 0.29 wounds
Missile Launcher (krak) 0.97 wounds
Autocannon 0.88 wounds


CONCLUSIONS:

Missile Launchers are pretty good general purpose weapons, but are less good at anti-big stuff than Lascannons. Also pretty bad against basic Marines.

Lascannons are good at shooting big stuff.

Autocannons are fairly general purpose, but are strictly worse than Missile Launchers against most targets. They are actually more points efficient than missile launchers against everything but the vehicles and Terminators, though.

Min maxing is a thing. Scions with plasmaguns (45+14), HWT with mortars (12+15). Add conscripts (150) and commisars (31) if your meta flows that way. Take as many as you want of each.

Waaargh wrote:
Min maxing is a thing. Scions with plasmaguns (45+14), HWT with mortars (12+15). Add conscripts (150) and commisars (31) if your meta flows that way. Take as many as you want of each.

Scion command squads get you more plasma.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Scion command squads get you more plasma.

But troop choices can get you more command points.

I suppose that's a question that's less amenable to mathhammering an answer to: is points efficient shooting more valuable than command points?

Feel free to optimize it.

IG players of 8th - what do you feel are the weakness' of your faction?

What should an opposing player try to capitalize on if they want to win a battle against you?

Between Conscripts (with orders), Scions, HWT, and all the quality vehicles running around - it's hard to try and deal with everything.

If you manage to make it to melee - the IG just fall back, and shoot your face in.

Just trying to figure out what to be doing as an Ork player, when the IG can field more models and more firepower at the same points cost; can't outshoot them, and horde armies just get decimated by Manticore/Wyvern/HWT, and Conscripts (50-200 shots is no joke).

Even if you kill a lot of them, morale kill isn't an option since the Commissar turns it into 1d3 dead, at most.

Lack of snipers makes it that much harder to take out the crucial backline characters as well.

fe40k wrote:
IG players of 8th - what do you feel are the weakness' of your faction?

What should an opposing player try to capitalize on if they want to win a battle against you?

Between Conscripts (with orders), Scions, HWT, and all the quality vehicles running around - it's hard to try and deal with everything.

If you manage to make it to melee - the IG just fall back, and shoot your face in.

Just trying to figure out what to be doing as an Ork player, when the IG can field more models and more firepower at the same points cost; can't outshoot them, and horde armies just get decimated by Manticore/Wyvern/HWT, and Conscripts (50-200 shots is no joke).

Even if you kill a lot of them, morale kill isn't an option since the Commissar turns it into 1d3 dead, at most.

Lack of snipers makes it that much harder to take out the crucial backline characters as well.

My brother is an ork player. Here is the advice I have given him:

You have no other option but to rush. IG excel at range & our artillery decimates. The faster you get into melee, the better.

If your opponent is using tanks he will be wasting most of his points on them. Bring some cheap transports/warbuggies etc & just charge & smash into them. If they have a screen of conscripts, just use weird boy jump & shoot open a pocket to get your vehicles through. They will be forced to keep falling back, unable to shoot. Meanwhile the rest of your boyz advance & tear them apart.

If he has mostly infantry you need to think of your opponent like an M&M. Hard outer shell, soft inside. If you break through their initial conscript outer line you can push in & wipe out HWT's etc. How? Use several weird boyz that teleport in lots of shootas etc. Use splitfire, choose your targets wisely & you will catch many out of cover meaning you will likely kill them. Your remaining boyz need to be close behind ready to charge shortly after.

Pure infantry armies don't seem to be easy to build anymore given the lack of infantry platoons and limited troop choices with battleforged armies. Platoon commanders being an elite choice doesn't help matters either.

Pseudomonas wrote:
Pure infantry armies don't seem to be easy to build anymore given the lack of infantry platoons and limited troop choices with battleforged armies. Platoon commanders being an elite choice doesn't help matters either.

If the rumors are true, we'll be seeing changes this weekend in the FAQ. I expect we will see a limit or some sort of restriction on company commanders & instead platoon commanders will become HQ choices.

I got about 50-60 pewter karskins all unpainted lying around.


So ya'll telling me they 100% worth painting up? Because Their stats look hella good and they seem to be able to bring a lot of firepower to the table, especially for deepstrike plama force or dropping out a valk, moving up and just removing from existence a big thing eith 4 meltaguns.

Please tell me i can finally make a full karskin army and be viable.