Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.

Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.

AHHH yes you are 100% correct. In my haste and naivety I concluded something better than existed.. man what a shame that could have been something cool

 Karhedron wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.

Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.

This man is correct.

Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster. For one extra point you get Shadow Specters who are arguably ten times better but thematically the same.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster.

So basically Spiders, WKs and Windriders went from must-take to "must take to the trash bin"?
Good job GW.

They went from "make an army just of those" to "take a few as fire support and use your brain".

Spiders definitely need shooting after FB though, and windriders and Wraithknight deserve a point drop due to jetbikes being overpriced for what they do (S6 weapon and new rules for cover made them less effective against infantry by far and point-to-point + overall fragility) and WK is just overpriced for his amount of wounds.

An option to take dual Wraithcannons with 5++ would change a lot for me too.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.

Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.

This man is correct.

Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster. For one extra point you get Shadow Specters who are arguably ten times better but thematically the same.

This is quite arguable.

The Jump Generators give Fly until end of the phase, but the Fall Back rule states: "If the unit Falls Back, it cannot advance or charge later that turn. The unit also cannot shoot later that turn unless it has Fly".
It seems like the rule gets checked in the movement phase and allows the model to shoot "later that turn", even if it loses Fly.

Also, RAI, it will be very-very weird if Warp Spiders cannot Fall Back and Shoot, since they had Hit&Run in the last edition. Waiting for this to be FAQ'd.

 Galef wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster.

So basically Spiders, WKs and Windriders went from must-take to "must take to the trash bin"?
Good job GW.

I've made up a fast attack slot using a three-man unit of Scatbikes, not amazing, but OK if you're looking for some long-range heavy shots.

Hey guys, couple questions for you. Thinking about getting into Eldar, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around all the stuff they have (been a long time since I played anything that wasn't Imperium). Made up a list to potentially towards and wanted to know what people opinions on it were.



I mainly wanted this to be for fun, so as long as something like this could put up a decent fight I'm happy. But, the questions I had after reading through this thread (at different times, so may have missed or forgotten some of it in here).

-I read that the Eldar named characters are a bit overpriced. So even though I really want to use them, how badly am I gimping myself?
-Striking Scorpions looked pretty good, are they worth it?
-It looks like Rangers aren't providing much killing power, is sniping overrated, and is there much value for them in objective games?
-Was thinking of swapping out Maugan Ra for Karandras, since the Dark Reapers Exarchs provide a similar benefit and it brings me to 1,995.
-Personally, I don't care for any of the Wraith units or models, how bad am I hurting the staying power of this army without any of them?

Shuricannon bikes seem pretty good this edition, especially when combined with Doom. They do not get the -1 to Hit from moving and can even fire after Advancing. AP-3 on a 6 to wound is nice against anything with armour. Small units are just a nuisance but used in quantities they can chew through Marines with frightening speed.

aspsnake wrote:

This is quite arguable.

The Jump Generators give Fly until end of the phase, but the Fall Back rule states: "If the unit Falls Back, it cannot advance or charge later that turn. The unit also cannot shoot later that turn unless it has Fly".
It seems like the rule gets checked in the movement phase and allows the model to shoot "later that turn", even if it loses Fly.

Hrmmm... that is an interesting thing to point out.

 Karhedron wrote:
Shuricannon bikes seem pretty good this edition, especially when combined with Doom. They do not get the -1 to Hit from moving and can even fire after Advancing. AP-3 on a 6 to wound is nice against anything with armour. Small units are just a nuisance but used in quantities they can chew through Marines with frightening speed.

The issue I am facing is that there are very few cost effective units that go well with those bikes that can actually open up all the metal boxes on the first turn and allow the bikes to get all those massed shots on the Marines.

Wave Serpents with dual Brightlances and Wraithguard cargo should do the trick.

You could try a Wraithcannon Knight as it can also keep up with the bikes but I have been underwhelmed by them in 8th edition.

Dark Reapers are solid but might get left on their own if the rest of your army is mobile.

Both the hemlock and crimson hunters are good anti tank and will start it up first turn.
Also shining spears are made for anti tank, tho their short range makes them iffy about first turn. Depends on deployment.
Then as mentioned wraithguard or fire dragons out of wave serpents, tho once again not on first turn.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Hey guys, couple questions for you. Thinking about getting into Eldar, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around all the stuff they have (been a long time since I played anything that wasn't Imperium). Made up a list to potentially towards and wanted to know what people opinions on it were.

Spoiler:

HQ
-Eldred
-Asurman
-Maugan Ra

TROOPS
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Rangers

ELITE
-10x Striking Scorpions w/ Biting Blade Exarch

HEAVY SUPPORT
-6x Dark Reapers w/ Reaper Launcher Exarch
-6x Dark Reapers w/ Reaper Launcher Exarch

TRANSPORTS
-Wave Serpent w/ Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
-Wave Serpent w/ Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines

1986 Points

I mainly wanted this to be for fun, so as long as something like this could put up a decent fight I'm happy. But, the questions I had after reading through this thread (at different times, so may have missed or forgotten some of it in here).

-I read that the Eldar named characters are a bit overpriced. So even though I really want to use them, how badly am I gimping myself?
-Striking Scorpions looked pretty good, are they worth it?
-It looks like Rangers aren't providing much killing power, is sniping overrated, and is there much value for them in objective games?
-Was thinking of swapping out Maugan Ra for Karandras, since the Dark Reapers Exarchs provide a similar benefit and it brings me to 1,995.
-Personally, I don't care for any of the Wraith units or models, how bad am I hurting the staying power of this army without any of them?

I personally don't see the benefit that Dire Avenges provide over just Guardians honestly, not for the points. I'm having a lot of success with running 3 units of Guardians in 3 Wave Serpents. With Ynnari, the Soul burst is brutal against infantry. You can swap Yvraine for one of the named characters.

I love Wraith units, but if you don't care for them Fire Dragons do the trick as well. Get a 4th Wave serpent with Fire Dragons and you have some anti-tank punch.

Rangers seem like a waste of points, but if you are going to take that many Rangers and two units of Dark Reapers, a cheap Autarch will have them all re-rolling 1s which could be a nice, if cramped, firebase to shoot from.

Not sure about Striking Scorpions, I have to build mine still, but sometimes the rule of cool wins out and I love those models.

Striking Scorpions are great because they can deploy 9" away and can do so into cover getting them a 2+ save which is really nice as a distraction. 105pts for 5 with a Biting Blade.

If you take a Dire Avenger squad of 5 you can take another squad in the same wave Serpent and characters too, Warlocks for conceal and enhance are always good.

well I put my striking scorpions away for this edition and am using all my howling banshees in every game. My opponent hates that his charge units gets interrupted during the fight phase. Between my Autarch and twin Banshee units. I get to deal some damage on my opponents during their turn and they turn everything on the Banshees.

A nice distraction for 2 units of 80 points each.

I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play

 Korlandril wrote:
I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play

That is ALL I play. Dark reapers, banshees and fire dragons teamed with dire avengers to jump out and do a nice job of surgical strikes. So far I have lost most games on objectives, but clearly won the war of attrition as my assault forces have been able to clear away Guard, marines and nids fairly nicely. If I could ever get a 6 turn game in I may even win one lol

 admironheart wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play

That is ALL I play. Dark reapers, banshees and fire dragons teamed with dire avengers to jump out and do a nice job of surgical strikes. So far I have lost most games on objectives, but clearly won the war of attrition as my assault forces have been able to clear away Guard, marines and nids fairly nicely. If I could ever get a 6 turn game in I may even win one lol

Do you run everything in a Wave Serpent?

 Korlandril wrote:

Do you run everything in a Wave Serpent?

Everything except other Wave Serpents.

But in all seriousness, given the number of units that are underpowered in the codex, mechanised Eldar is one of the relatively few competitive builds around at the moment. Wave Serpents are good and also provide an effective way of getting the effective units we do have close to the enemy where they can do some damage.

Running a new list that I have really liked so far. Initially it was a gimmick.. just wanted to try out a few units but it has performed very well.

Battalion:
Yvraine
Prince Yriel
Farseer Skyrunner
2x 10 Dire Avengers (Exarch)
2x 9 Warp Spiders (Exarch)
10 Harliquin Troupe (3 Caress')
2 Ravagers (3 lance)
2 Wave Serpants (2 CTM, 2 Missle Launchers, 1 Shur cannon)

I am going to work points around a little bit to try and get 1 more caress on the harliquins. They have been phenominal so far in my games. Put out a ton of wounds. The warp spiders I am still feeling out. First game, they flopped (partially my fault for forgetting flickerfield). Second game, was maelstrom and they were monsters of repositioning. The s6 is decent and the -4 is handy. Working with Yvraine, they can essentially get an 8d6" move which if that doesn't get you an objective.. idk what will.

Yriel has been the all-star. Do not underestimate him this edition. He is an under the radar extraordinaire. hits on 2s, WOUNDS on 2s, and d3 damage is brutal. in two good combats he did the majority of damage to bring down a land raider, has fought demon princes, and many guardsman have died by his hands.

What are people's thoughts about Command Points in 8th edition?

Our Troop units seem somewhat mediocre. Guardians make an adequate filling for Wave Serpents but that is about it. Dire Avengers and Rangers both seem overpriced. Is it worth paying the tax for the extra CPs or are we better off running Vanguards etc for our Detachments?

I have been running Harlequin Troupes as my troops choices.

A troupe of 5 all with fusion pistols in a starweaver is more point efficient than Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

I am running CWE only.

I don't think we will have an incentive to take more troops until we get a codex to give us obsec and good stratagems. I also think that the Craftworld specific stratagems and chapter tactics equivalent rules will give us a good reason to not run Ynnari. Strength from death vs battle focus is no contest, but when craftworld tactics is added to battle focus and Ynnari still just have SfD it might be more of a choice.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think we will have an incentive to take more troops until we get a codex to give us obsec and good stratagems. I also think that the Craftworld specific stratagems and chapter tactics equivalent rules will give us a good reason to not run Ynnari. Strength from death vs battle focus is no contest, but when craftworld tactics is added to battle focus and Ynnari still just have SfD it might be more of a choice.

Hopefully we get some way to get more CP too. Having a bunch of fragile, short-ranged infantry makes it very hard to fill out detachments -- Eldar infantry are designed to require transports. It's pretty hard to come up with a decent Eldar army that gets more than 7 CP. That's really not enough to get much out of the kinds of stratagems we've seen in the new codices.

Think so? The big +9 units seem doable ... 3 HQ (Aurach and two Warlocks, or Farseer, Aurach, and Warlock) is easy, 3 elites and fast attack are simple, 3 heavy ... okay, that, I confess, is harder ... and then 6 troops. Get the cost of Dire Avengers down to 12 like they're supposed to be and it should be workable.

That heavy support's the only trip-up.

Heavy Support is no problem as Reapers are really good. Able to take on everything from MEQs to aircraft and can fire on the move if you wish. A 3-man squad is only a bit over 100 points. Or 2 squads and a Wraithlord to babysit them.

Anyway, it is not so much the feasibility of building a Brigade, I'm sure it can be done. The question is whether the amount of chaff required to field one is worth the extra CPs you get from it. I doubt I will be playing anything bigger than 2000 points so a Brigade at that level would be lots of MSUs and very few transports. Yes it can be done but it is not really playing to our strengths. I would say our top units in the Index list are Wave Serpents, Wraithguard/blades, Hemlocks, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. I could run Vanguard which hits very hard but only gives 1CP or I could chuck in some Troops for a Brigade that nets me 3CPs but contains 3 underperforming units that are mainly there for the CPs rather than their combat performance.

Our cheapest Troop choice is 64 points and you need 3 in a Brigade. Is it worth spending 192 points for 2 extra CPs? In practice I would probably run Guardian Defenders at 80 points and put them in Serpents but you get the gist.

Wakshaani wrote:
Think so? The big +9 units seem doable ... 3 HQ (Aurach and two Warlocks, or Farseer, Aurach, and Warlock) is easy, 3 elites and fast attack are simple, 3 heavy ... okay, that, I confess, is harder ... and then 6 troops. Get the cost of Dire Avengers down to 12 like they're supposed to be and it should be workable.

That heavy support's the only trip-up.

I mean, what does this list look like?

You've got a bunch of footslogging Troops that look like a bad version of Sisters, costing about 360 points total. Without transports you're pretty restricted to Wraithguard for Elites, unless you want to take Striking Scorpions (which are really just slower and easier to kill and more expensive versions of Assault Marines). I guess you could go to FW for Spectres although you're going to have a hard time supporting them with anything. A minimum squad is cheap, at least. So let's call that 400 points of Elites. I really have no idea what you have your eye on in Fast Attack. Shining Spears are maybe decent, although again it's going to be really awkward trying to use them when so much of the rest of your army is slow. Regardless, we're looking at about 300 points no matter what you pick. Heavy Support is going to be Dark Reapers or War Walkers or maybe Wraithlords. Dark Reapers seem like the best choice given how much other footslogging infantry we're looking at, for another ~300 points. And then another 300 for a Farseer, an Autarch (probably a Skyrunner), and a Warlock to sit in the middle of all the DAs or a Warlock Skyrunner to go along with Spectres or Spears. That's 1700 points, so that's basically the army. You could afford to bring in some Fire Dragons in a Serpent or buy Serpents for some Wraithguard, although this will still be a bit awkward since you'll leave all your Avengers behind. Your best bet may be to take fast, min units everywhere except Troops and HS and then get 2 Serpents for 4 squads of Avengers, probably starting the game with the Dark Reapers in the Serpents and swapping out on turn 1.

I don't think this would be terrible. But it's obviously very constrained, and it's not like it's looking particularly great. Things really don't get much better if we bring in Dark Eldar and Harlequins, although Trueborn, Scourges, and Ravagers are tempting.

Meanwhile, what are other factions doing?

Space Marines are taking Guilliman and a Battalion for well under 1000 points. They've already got 9 CP and a Warlord Trait that's effectively +50% CP. Ultramarines do it best but lots of other Chapters have ways to generate extra CP, and they also lend themselves better to transport-less armies that fill out detachments.

Guard can similarly take 6 infantry squads as Troops, except theirs have lascannons and are more durable. Scion/Elysian Command Squads are no-brainer Elite choices, and Ratlings are also excellent. Mortar Squads are cheap and very good Heavy Support. Aside from Fast Attack, they've got a Brigade full of units they're very happy to take for maybe 800 points. Fast Attack can be Rough Riders or Sentinels or Hellhounds, which are all perfectly good units depending on the rest of the list. And of course things like Conscripts and Manticores are pretty good too.

If Imperial Soup is allowed then this just gets silly. You can fill out a Brigade very cheaply while using only very powerful units. But even without creating mixed detachments you can take a pure Guard detachment as above in order to feed CP to a Battalion of something else. My typical Guard and Sisters lists have 14 or 15 CP, and I really never feel like I'm having to make significant sacrifices to get there.

I'm not sure what overall shape Chaos is in but many Legions are clearly encouraged to take cult Troops, and Abaddon now gives bonus CP (and appears to be a very appealing pick). As with Imperium armies, you could also put together cheap Daemon detachments to generate CP for CSM stratagems.

It's true that some other Xenos are also in pretty bad shape here. Necrons in particular really struggle to have more than 7 CP, and will often just have a single Battalion.

Welp it looks like GW is closely following NOVA this year and my bet is ... we will see Mag+Knights and Guard in the top lists. And shortly after GW will put out an FAQ that nerfs them both somehow. We have seen it done to the Raven spam, they can do it again.

My typical lists are 4-6 CPs. Depending on what I am running. I don't see how you could break out a brigade without really dropping the size of your units to min squads. Which is a balance between filling out your required slots and making your limited psychic buffs the most effective.

Without a codex we have ZERO incentive to bring more than a Battalions worth of command dice.

I am also super curious if Ynnari will gain any benefit like tactic. The last FAQ that required a Triumverate HQ choice makes it impossible to take Ynnari and have all units fall into the <craftworld> etc, because they HQs will not.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Welp it looks like GW is closely following NOVA this year and my bet is ... we will see Mag+Knights and Guard in the top lists. And shortly after GW will put out an FAQ that nerfs them both somehow. We have seen it done to the Raven spam, they can do it again.

My typical lists are 4-6 CPs. Depending on what I am running. I don't see how you could break out a brigade without really dropping the size of your units to min squads. Which is a balance between filling out your required slots and making your limited psychic buffs the most effective.

Without a codex we have ZERO incentive to bring more than a Battalions worth of command dice.

I am also super curious if Ynnari will gain any benefit like tactic. The last FAQ that required a Triumverate HQ choice makes it impossible to take Ynnari and have all units fall into the <craftworld> etc, because they HQs will not.

I hope Ynnari will get access to a few Stratagems, even if they are fewer or more limited than for pure Aeldari. I understand CWE and Drukkari need some incentives to be played as pure armies. But it can be done without leaving Ynnari as a bland, tool-less army compared to the test of the 8th forces.