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So over in the wraiths are bad thread I was informed that a 3++/4++ is statistically identical to a 2+ armour save. Made me think what happens if you put Orikan in a unit of board and sword Praetorians?

Does that mean in effect the Praetorians will have a 2++ armour save (3++ re-rolling ones) followed by a 4++ ?

Don's suppose anyone knows what % of wounds saved that would be? my (bad) maths tells me they end up being an 85.5% chance to save every wound compared to a 2+ armour save of 83.3%?

Also.. functionally it would be significantly better than a standard 2+ save considering you get it with AP2?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
So based on points the decurion is limited to only a few detachments of use. I'm focusing on the judicator, destroyer cult, and canoptek. In no real scenario can I fit more than two with the reclamation legion. So my list building is essentially permeatations of those.

My question then is which two would be best in the decurion? I'm liking judicator with destroyer cult but conoptek with destroyer cult seems great too. Thoughts?

It's possible to fit all three in 1850 or higher. Depends how many points your playing.

Judicator Minimum - 405

Destroyer Minimum - 470

Wraith Minimum - 230

Reclamation Minimum - 479

Total : 1584


If you were playing 2k it would be a almost easy thing to do.

bodazoka wrote:
So over in the wraiths are bad thread I was informed that a 3++/4++ is statistically identical to a 2+ armour save. Made me think what happens if you put Orikan in a unit of board and sword Praetorians?

Does that mean in effect the Praetorians will have a 2++ armour save (3++ re-rolling ones) followed by a 4++ ?

Don's suppose anyone knows what % of wounds saved that would be? my (bad) maths tells me they end up being an 85.5% chance to save every wound compared to a 2+ armour save of 83.3%?

Also.. functionally it would be significantly better than a standard 2+ save considering you get it with AP2?

Yes, Lychguard with Dispersion shields take 1 unsaved wound out of 6, same as a 2+ save would give. (83.3...% saved)
With Orikan, you're going to take 1 unsaved wound out of 18. (94.4....% saved) [corrected]

[Assuming you're getting a 4+ RP, of course]

It's actually higher than that I think.

caelim wrote:
With Orikan, you're going to take 1 unsaved wound out of 18. (94.4....% saved) [corrected]

[Assuming you're getting a 4+ RP, of course]

Holy crap! the unit has a 94.4% chance to save a wound! and it's an invulnerable save! geez... aanndd they are T5 as well..

400 points for 10 guys + Orikan

30 x Str5 - AP3 attacks on the charge
Orikan in beast mode - 5 x Str 7 attacks at AP2 with re-rolls to hit

What couldn't this unit smash? I mean.. even against Terminators you still have Orikan who will murder them.

It has serious problems, mainly that it is slow as molasses, you almost have to take either a Night Scythe to transport them or a Deep Striking Monolith.

Having fought that unit personally, I just threw 6 wraiths at it, tying it up all game, then killed the rest of his army.

6 wraiths is 240pts, that unit is considerably more expensive. I was able to use my numerical advantage elsewhere to capture various objectives and win the game 9-3.

Sure you could put it in a night scythe, but even then they'll only move 6" per turn and can't assault when they disembark.

New Royal Court Death Star?

Just throwing around some ideas here, but....

Royal Court Formation + CAD

Zandy
Orikan
3 Lord + WS
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Nightmare Shrod
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Solar Staff
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
7 x Warscythe LG

Night Scythe

1220...lol

A little pricey, yeah, but it's nearly indestructible, can be placed anywhere, twice, and throws out 21 Staff of Light shots and 38 Warscythe (+ Orikan) on the charge. Plenty of slots for extra Res Orbs, if you are feeling worried. 28 T5 wounds, 9 of which have IWND, 2+/4++ rerollable 1 saves (well, 3 of them are just 3+ AS).

Not quite the shenanigans of the old RC, with all the MSS and what not, but you'll deal plenty of death in this setup. You can also afford to slot some of those SoLs with flamers, if you think you will need them.

I thought the Royal Court Formation was the only one necessitating a Decurion. There's a restriction there after all....

Wraiths or Praetorians are a better add to a deathstar because the movement allows them to sling shot the previous characters into close combat and they give the whole thing fearless.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
New Royal Court Death Star?

Just throwing around some ideas here, but....

Royal Court Formation + CAD

Zandy
Orikan
3 Lord + WS
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Nightmare Shrod
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Solar Staff
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
7 x Warscythe LG

Night Scythe

1220...lol

A little pricey, yeah, but it's nearly indestructible, can be placed anywhere, twice, and throws out 21 Staff of Light shots and 38 Warscythe (+ Orikan) on the charge. Plenty of slots for extra Res Orbs, if you are feeling worried. 28 T5 wounds, 9 of which have IWND, 2+/4++ rerollable 1 saves (well, 3 of them are just 3+ AS).

Not quite the shenanigans of the old RC, with all the MSS and what not, but you'll deal plenty of death in this setup. You can also afford to slot some of those SoLs with flamers, if you think you will need them.

That's a bad idea because the opponent wins by just running away from it and killing everything else. I like the smaller Orikan + RC in a GA packing flamers that clocks in at 480 points allowing you to have other big threats running around.

Hollismason wrote:
It has serious problems, mainly that it is slow as molasses, you almost have to take either a Night Scythe to transport them or a Deep Striking Monolith.

So just take a night scythe?

night scythes are still awesome by them selves.. and are very much required. You could also just add a Cryptek in there and give him the Veil of Darkness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Having fought that unit personally, I just threw 6 wraiths at it, tying it up all game, then killed the rest of his army.

6 wraiths is 240pts, that unit is considerably more expensive. I was able to use my numerical advantage elsewhere to capture various objectives and win the game 9-3.

Sure you could put it in a night scythe, but even then they'll only move 6" per turn and can't assault when they disembark.

To be fair the night scythe will disembark them into the enemy lines turn 2, everything should then be in charge range turn 3 (if you dont get charged first) if you put the Cryptek in there with the VoD you could be in there lines on turn 1. If your worried about points just take the 5 + Orikan (245 points)
That unit will absolutely murder marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Wraiths or Praetorians are a better add to a deathstar because the movement allows them to sling shot the previous characters into close combat and they give the whole thing fearless.

Wraith's wont get the benefit from Orikan as they don't have RP but the maths is the same with Praetorians (except they hit harder with the AP2 and shooting attack) the only drama is Praetorians don't get the invul save so AP3 weapons are a problem.

Just give the Cryptek or one of them a Cronometron

Hello
You said 21 light staff shots i don't see how you do this so you loose the light staff for the scythes,
Then a little tactic question about : Lychguard,
Most say take Lychguard with shield or either scyths, why don't if you have a unit of five take 2 shields and 3 scythes so the first could take damage and the other kill isn't that possible?

col_impact wrote:



That's a bad idea because the opponent wins by just running away from it and killing everything else. I like the smaller Orikan + RC in a GA packing flamers that clocks in at 480 points allowing you to have other big threats running around.

Yeah, fair point.

Thought about swapping the LG for Immortals. Gives the dudes some more range, you could effectively keep T5 if you wanted too, and save a bit in the process. So... just throwing points around, you could swap the non Nightmare Shroud Olord with Imo, and swap down to Immortals. Keep the Solar Staff and Res Orb on a different Lord.That gives you three straight up 2+/4++ guys with reroll 1 to saves an RP 4+ with rerolls. With three guys you could spread them out to cover most of the front arcs. Nasty nasty nasty.

Topped off with 7 Gauss Immortals you end up with 1189, I think.

Then you go heavy MSU with the rest of your fixens. 6 x Heavy Destroyers. Groups of 10, 10, and 7 Flayed Ones, and your other requisite Immortal squad bring you to 1925. So, despite the deathstar you still end up with 12 units.


The death star itself trades a bunch of WS attacks for some ranged S5 Gauss. You still have 13 WS attacks on the charge, but now you also have a 12 inch blast of 14 S5 AP4 Gauss 6 BS 5 S 6 AP 3 Blind/2 and 18 S5 AP3 shots. pewpewpew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fun fact. If a Necron Overlor is protected with the combination of a 2+ Armor Save, is in a unit with Orikan, and uses both a Solar Staff and Res Orb, it takes 2600 Bolter Shots, on average, to wound him.

Or, 7800 Bolter Shots to kill him

I still can't decide if I should spend points to give my single group of 3 Tomb Blades Shield Vanes and Nebuloscope. Is worth the extra points doing that?

Haven't made any full lists, just building them right now. I plan on using a mix fo Immortals and Warrior in a decurion, and Wraiths (possibly the formation).

basically, if an Olord with Orikan and a 2+ save pops next to your and Solar Staffs, don't shoot at him, because its pointless, at least for a turn

yeah, only the Dlord can rock the t6, and getting it on an entire unit is close to impossible, but even at T5 it's a tough cookie

taetrius67 wrote:
Then a little tactic question about : Lychguard,
Most say take Lychguard with shield or either scyths, why don't if you have a unit of five take 2 shields and 3 scythes so the first could take damage and the other kill isn't that possible?

Because the entire unit needs to have the same weapons.

The more I think about it, the more Night Scythe deployment seems risky.

Turn three arrival on average, right? But you equally risk turn four deployment to turn two, and have to loiter for a turn.

A turn 5 assault is really bad, and 4 isn't much better. You're pretty much hinging on turn 2 arrival to get any benefit out of it.

The only absolute benefit is a Solar Pulse keeping you from attracting all the fire on the arrival turn and undoing the benefit of not getting shot up whilst running up the board.

With Shieldguard at any rate, getting shot up whilst you have a 4+++ reanimation on the go is a minor victory just for wasting so much enemy ammo.

The more I think about it, the more Night Scythe deployment seems risky.

With the Hyperlogical strategist Warlord trait, the chances go up substantially (Imo gets this automatically, and Zandy can choose it).

But, yeah, its something to consider.

changemod wrote:
The more I think about it, the more Night Scythe deployment seems risky.

Turn three arrival on average, right? But you equally risk turn four deployment to turn two, and have to loiter for a turn.

A turn 5 assault is really bad, and 4 isn't much better. You're pretty much hinging on turn 2 arrival to get any benefit out of it.

The only absolute benefit is a Solar Pulse keeping you from attracting all the fire on the arrival turn and undoing the benefit of not getting shot up whilst running up the board.

With Shieldguard at any rate, getting shot up whilst you have a 4+++ reanimation on the go is a minor victory just for wasting so much enemy ammo.

Well if one wants to make a deathstar that arrives from reserve work, reserve manipulation is crucial.

3 Tomb Blades sitting behind an ADL with a quadgun has already been proposed as decent AA, so why not add a comms relay to that if you want to run a ShieldGuard star?

Probably not the best thing 'Crons can do, but I do love me a CC deathstar.

All the deathstar talk does make me wonder though: In a codex with so many independently solid options, why try to run a deathstar at all? The weaknesses of deathstars are being exploited further and further in 7th edition, and rarely do you see them win tournaments anymore. I know its fun exercise, but it seems like 'Crons have so many better ways to go about list building.

Noctem wrote:
I still can't decide if I should spend points to give my single group of 3 Tomb Blades Shield Vanes and Nebuloscope. Is worth the extra points doing that?

Haven't made any full lists, just building them right now. I plan on using a mix fo Immortals and Warrior in a decurion, and Wraiths (possibly the formation).

Ignore cover HYMP.

DECURION

Reclamation Legion:
Zahndrekh
5 Immortals in Night Scythe
10 Warriors in Ghost Ark
20 Warriors on foot (+Zandrekh, Veil Cryptek)
5 Tomb Blades + all the upgrades
5 Lychguard + Shields (rest of the Royal Court goes here)

Royal Court:
Overlord + Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Orikan
Cryptek + Chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Varguard Obyron
2 Lords + Warscythes

1780pts

Either walk or deepstrike (Veil) the 4+/5++/4+++ blob with Zahndrekh onto an objective in safe midfield, then use Obyron's Ghost Mantle to teleport the Lychguard Deathstar anywhere within 12" of Zahndrekh without scatter, into charge range of the main enemy threat: 3+/3++/4+++ (reroll 1s, 1 res orb, jinx in challenges between Overlord's 4++ and Obyron's 2+ save) with 10 WS attacks + Orikan empowered.

I wouldn't call 5 Shieldguard with Orikan a Deathstar, honestly. It's cheaper than a Terminator Squad with character.

It's a very solid base to build into a Deathstar of course.

Orikan is swiftly becoming pretty standard in my lists though. Even just in 5 immortals in a small points game you have a more durable unit that can drop a mini C'tan on your foes by the endgame.

so guys
what do you all bring for a 500 points game?
I plan to bring

1 overlord

2x 5man immortals

5x tomb blades with shield vanes

3x heavy destroyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so guys
what do you all bring for a 500 points game?
I plan to bring

1 overlord

2x 5man immortals

5x tomb blades with shield vanes

3x heavy destroyers

What do people think of the C'Tan formation in exterminatus, also the destroyer cult. I have tried a few times and they always seem to work wonders for me.

How have they worked for others.

oz of the north wrote:
What do people think of the C'Tan formation in exterminatus, also the destroyer cult. I have tried a few times and they always seem to work wonders for me.

How have they worked for others.

I don't rate C'Tan, but T8 FnP could be promising. I can't see myself taking that formation.

Destroyer Cult works well with a Stalker, essentially giving you BS5 with re-rolls to hit and wound

Someone proposed an interesting combo a few pages back for that C'tan formation that buffed up a Cryptek pretty substantially. It's probably how I would field them (and I shall, as the Nightbringer is too cool not to field, regardless of how competitive he is)

It went something like:

C'tan
Cryptek w/Solar Thermastite, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter
Cryptek w/God Shackle, Veil of Darkness, Chronometron

Clocks in at a ton of points but is stupidly durable, especially with Nightbringer's ability to get a wound back. The one cryptek has a re-rollable 2+ as well as a 4++ re-rolling 1's. Sadly you sacrifice the Solar Staff to get the Veil, but turn one you are in their backfield begging to be shot at. And if they don't, well....

The only real downside is that you suffer from lack of mobility after the turn 1 deep strike; however that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can choose where you go and therefore what target you will threaten (barring horrendous scatter)

Clearly not top-tier tournament worthy, but sounds like a fun way to play a beer and pretzels game

As far as I know you can't mix and match relics from Mephrit and Codex Necrons.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
As far as I know you can't mix and match relics from Mephrit and Codex Necrons.

If you are in a Mephrit detachment or formation you can use relics from Mephrit or codex:Necrons.