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Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus

If they don't give BA something to cut through screening units with reasonable efficiency, I don't see what else matters. And before others lose their mind, DC and tac marines do not have reasonable efficiency.

There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.

senor_flojo wrote:
There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.

That kind of list is the SM-based list to run right now, unfortunately there's no real reason to run it as BA. He has Dante but he would probably be better off with a JP captain and the chapter master stratagem. Any chapter tactic is better than none. I guess that player had models painted up as BA and couldn't/didn't want to run them as red marines.

senor_flojo wrote:
There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.

And this is why FLG claim BA are powerful. :(

That list is still far inferior to a Bobby G list.

p5freak wrote:
Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus

And we deliver presents.

 Melissia wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus

And we deliver presents.

And those presents are easy wins for our opponents.

Martel732 wrote:
That list is still far inferior to a Bobby G list.

I’ll bite... what’s a Bobby G list?

senor_flojo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is still far inferior to a Bobby G list.

I’ll bite... what’s a Bobby G list?

Roboutte Guilliman.

Martel732 wrote:
If they don't give BA something to cut through screening units with reasonable efficiency, I don't see what else matters. And before others lose their mind, DC and tac marines do not have reasonable efficiency.

5 model unit company veterans, JP, stormbolters, chainswords. 20 S4 AP0 ranged attacks, 16 S4 AP0 CC attacks, 105 pts.

Not enough shots/swings.

I'd actually favor death company with boltguns and chainswords more than that, but the storm bolters do have more firepower before the charge, thus lessening the impact of overwatch.

Agreed Melissia.

I'm actually planning on working on a 10 man death company squad without Jump Packs, armed with Bolters and Chainswords (With a Powerfist and a power sword or axe) mixed in that will deploy out of a Drop Pod. They hit the table and deploy out of the pod, next to a 10 man Jump Pack Death Company, led by Lemartes, sporting mostly pistols and Chainswords, arriving from Deep Strike at the same time. In addition, I'll have a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Sanguinary Priest I'll use to help offer buffs and try to bring models that die back from the dead.

I'll be using a Vanguard Detachment for this force, and it clocks in at 852 points, including the Drop Pod, for 20 Death Company Marines (10 with Jump Packs), the Jump Pack Sanguinary High Priest, Sanguinary Novitiate, and Lemartes.
No special pistols on here, it's just bolt guns on the drop pod Death Company, with an extra 2x Axes and 2x Powerfists. The Jump Pack Death Company squad (led by Lemartes) will have 2x Power Swords & Bolt Pistols, 1x Power Fist (+ Bolt Gun), and 1x Thunder Hammer.

I would take the remaining points, and build out something to go with them as an allied force, be it my Vostroyan Guard, or more Blood Angels in a Battalion Detachment.

I feel like dropping that over on a weak flank, especially with additional psychic support being available, would be able to overwhelm and put good damage on a target with the combination of a lot of ST:4 shooting followed up by a healthy dose of ST:5+ re-rolling to-hit attacks from the Death Company that are able to (hopefully) reliably get into combat with a target or two with the charge re-rolls Lemartes gives.

It's a concept I'm going to be working on soonish I hope. Fingers crossed I'll get it painted up at some point in the future.

We'll see. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

A drop pod ? You are kidding right ?? The pod is 105 pts. Giving the 10 model DC unit JP is only 30 pts. You are wasting 75 pts. A novitiate ? He is 55 pts. You can get three more DC models for that. Why would you want to bring back one model in the next turn (only on a 4+, if you fail the novi does nothing), when you can start with three more from the beginning ??

If you really want to play DC without jump packs, embark them onto a rhino and that's it. What's the reason to play a drop pod? You have to place it 9" from the enemy and if you disembark you still have to place all your models 9" away. Blood angels already suck and if you waste your points on useless units you won't end up in a good spot.

And then I don't really understand why in general one wants to shoot the unit one aims to charge: if one kills a couple of guys of that unit one might not be able to charge since the enemy can remove casualties as he wishes.

p5freak wrote:
A drop pod ? You are kidding right ?? The pod is 105 pts. Giving the 10 model DC unit JP is only 30 pts. You are wasting 75 pts. A novitiate ? He is 55 pts. You can get three more DC models for that. Why would you want to bring back one model in the next turn (only on a 4+, if you fail the novi does nothing), when you can start with three more from the beginning ??

You don't have to agree with my choices [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].

You're also entitled to your opinion, and just because you don't agree with mine doesn't make my observations and experiences running the army how I like any less successful or valid.

I've had very good success with running a Novitiate, and it fills the third (mandatory) elite slot I have in the Vanguard detachment nicely without having to run even more Death Company. I know he's 55 points. I can read, and do math, as you may be aware. Also, yes, I know the pod is 105 points. It also puts them right where I want them along with the Jump Pack squad and provides a nice multi-wound vehicle that can sit on an objective on the turn it lands that my opponent then has to deal with or try to kill while having to contend with 20 Death Company + support characters.

Lastly, kindly step down off your high horse. You're not the god of 40k, and your opinion isn't worth -all more than mine or anyone elses.

If you want to compare notes, or offer some insight into how I'm doing things, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spado wrote:
If you really want to play DC without jump packs, embark them onto a rhino and that's it. What's the reason to play a drop pod? You have to place it 9" from the enemy and if you disembark you still have to place all your models 9" away. Blood angels already suck and if you waste your points on useless units you won't end up in a good spot.

And then I don't really understand why in general one wants to shoot the unit one aims to charge: if one kills a couple of guys of that unit one might not be able to charge since the enemy can remove casualties as he wishes.

Valid points, but as I said in my previous reply, I play with a lot of objectives, and a Pod is actually pretty excellent at claiming/holding an objective that my opponent may be shooting/gunning for or defending one of my own. Being able to land near or next to an objective in the middle of the board and force my opponent to come to me is excellent. You don't have to ALWAYS get the charge off with Death Company as they're really good at area denial if you position them correctly.

You don't typically shoot the units you want to charge, at least I don't (I can't speak for you or anyone else). That said, being able to land near a soft target and drop 20 bolter shots into it does typically result in something dying and taking the heat off of the charging DC unit that lands with them.

It's all a matter of trying to see where you can use the unit and what options available to that unit can change their role up a bit and make them useful beyond one dimension of use.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

@ Red_Thirst: I, by no means, want to be rude or behave like I know a lot about this game. I simply don't understand the usefulness of a drop pod at all and I apologize if you interpreted my suggestion in the wrong way. In my opinion, that set-up cannot punch a giant hole into the enemy lines and I expect them to quickly die the turn after since the opponent will disengage and shoot at them. But then again, I don't know whom you play against and the meta of your LGS. However, if you'll have the occasion to play such list I'll be interested if you'll have time to post your impressions.

Spado

Spado wrote:
@ Red_Thirst: I, by no means, want to be rude or behave like I know a lot about this game. I simply don't understand the usefulness of a drop pod at all and I apologize if you interpreted my suggestion in the wrong way. In my opinion, that set-up cannot punch a giant hole into the enemy lines and I expect them to quickly die the turn after since the opponent will disengage and shoot at them. But then again, I don't know whom you play against and the meta of your LGS. However, if you'll have the occasion to play such list I'll be interested if you'll have time to post your impressions.

Spado

No harm, no foul at all sir!

Rest assured, your reply was a well thought out question and I was happy to reply to it. If I came off as rude to you, please know that wasn't my intention in the slightest. The poster before you, however, well let's just say I didn't care if I sounded rude.

You are correct, the enemy can disengage from them if they wish, and if they do, I'll just pursue, rapid fire and hopefully charge them with the foot-slogging DC squad.

This drop pod squad isn't so much designed to punch a hole as much as it's a support to the other jump pack Death Company squad that can land with, or nearby, them. The bolters can chew at something else, taking pressure off of the Jump Pack DC hopefully. The overarching goal is to put a lot of bodies near an enemy flank or critical objective and be able to be aggressive with part of it and then follow them with even more aggressive play, or hang back and still have a respectable amount of bodies ready to jump in as a second wave to reinforce the first.

Once I get the squads all built and can do a playtest, I'll happily post up my opinions and findings on it, also. If you ever care to compare notes, please don't hesitate to ask. I'm all about finding out about new & interesting ways to field my Blood Angels.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I really think it's a better idea to build a Dante-based quasi-Girlyman list and try to take out IG toys at range. I think podding in DC, jumping DC, jumping vets, or any attempt at CC at this juncture is futile. We simply can't withstand multiple turns of multiple wyverns/manticores/Russes. We have to hope we have LoS on the artillery and use lascannons. That's it. Only lascannons because they are the sweet spot for anti-MC/tank. S9 48" is simply unbeatable right now for range weapons. I currently am going to try a 2K list with 16 lascannons, and yes, 6 tactical squads. Maybe if I buy myself 6 turns to beat up conscripts I can do it with tac marines. Maybe. It's humiliating and stupid, but I don't think we can punch our way out of a paper bag this edition.

I saw a CSM list use 30 infiltrating berzerkers to kill 123 models in one turn. The next turn, he had 4 berzerkers left after beta strike and was behind in points badly. And we can't even get close that kind of efficiency. And the guy still ended up getting tabled. It doesn't matter how many screening units we chop. That's what list with screening units want. We have to take out their models that do damage. Period. They're not going to let us deep strike, and they're not going to let us assault them. There's only one choice left. That's just the way it is.

I've had far more success with my assault terminators against tanks than any shooting against tanks.

I played a BT guy with 15 assault terminators and smoked him with predators badly. Assault terminators are bad. Really bad. They lose in the movement phase of the game. I'm never going to let you assault my good units.

And I've had them tear apart predators and land raiders with ease. Frankly, given your perpetual and tiresome doomsaying, I'm going to trust my experience more than your anecdote.

I won't let you do that, though. Against assault terminators, even tac marines are good.

Assault terminators are only scary if they get where they are going and that's 100% preventable in 8th.

Pfft, let me? Hahah, oh wow. I don't need to take you saying bullgak like how you're not gonna "let" me do anything. You have no authority to tell me what I can and cannot do on this forum, nor do you have any authority as a supposed expert on gameplay balance. Red Thirst was right.

I think you intentionally misunderstand posts so you can post angry replies.

I won't let your assault terminators assault my tanks. If we played, I guarantee you'd assault zero tanks and lose because assault terminators are terrible. I don't need to be an authority to know that.

Melissia,

Yeah I think you mistook his post a bit. I see where he is coming from though. My Combi-Plasma/Plasma Tac Squads shred Terminators, they really don't have much of a chance unless they kill all of my 5 man squads at the same time and make their 9" charges, half of them even longer than that since not all of my squads are just lined up.

But, I will happily sacrifice a couple 5 man Tac squads placed 4-5" away from my vehicles, Devastators and Dreadnoughts to keep them from hitting anything important. Terminators have even less of a chance to hit anything important when I am running my Guard as allies or by themselves.

I learned my lesson early on about leaving gaps for deep striking units to long bomb their 9" charges into something I don't want them too. It isn't too hard to prevent after a bit of practice now. The Terminator heavy lists at my store are in a rough spot this edition (still).

True, overcharged plasma is a thing to worry about. Problem is, most people just don't seem to like taking a lot of tactical squads, and thus they don't have enough plasma firepower to deal with a primarily terminator list. If they did take more dual plas tac squads I'd probably be doing a lot worse, but they'd rather be taking tanks instead while taking bare minimum numbers of tacticals.

 Melissia wrote:
Pfft, let me? Hahah, oh wow. I don't need to take you saying bullgak like how you're not gonna "let" me do anything. You have no authority to tell me what I can and cannot do on this forum, nor do you have any authority as a supposed expert on gameplay balance. Red Thirst was right.

Uhhhhhh

I agree, terminators are overpriced for what they bring. Between plasma, cyclic ion blasters, earthshaker cannons, blastmasters, malefic lords and so on, terminators are in big trouble once exposed. Good opponents have enough wit and tools to allow them to block off any feasible deepstrike options. Even if the termies get into a desirable melee their damage output is nothing special. I have tried to use terminators in competitive settings and tournaments, with and without transports. They have not been competitive for me or any other SM player that I have seen at tournaments.