Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hi folks
after taking some of those veiws and ideas that have been posted here and elswhere on this list in to account ive decided to have another go at the list working heavily towards a city fight army but ive hopefully created an alround IG force as well. this list is using all the models i currently have (not nessecarily built) and hopefully making the best use of them.
all storm troopers and vets are using kasrkin models to represent inquisitional troopers leading the inducted guard even though for this army list they arent inquisitonal troops, once its all painted you'll see why.
so heres the list:

DOCTRINES
Grenadiers
Iron discipline
Close order drill
Drop troops

HQ
Junior officer
bionics
Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
Storm bolter + power weapon
Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + medi-pac*
Unit total 116

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
3 sentinals
1 lascannon
2 flamer 40
armoured crew comps
Unit total 180

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power fist + las pistol
2 meltas
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 135

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
Storm bolter + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 136

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + power weapon
Iron discipline
2 melta gun
2 flamer*
Unit total 83

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 grenade launcher
7 lasguns
Unit total 78

 

FAST ATTACK

Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

Basilisk*
Indirect fire
Unit total 125

Tarantula battery
3 heavy bolter tarantulas

ARMY TOTAL 1496

a few points under but im unsure as what to keep or lose and add to alter the cost, mind you once people have had a look other ideas might arise.

again Items marked with * can be removed for the ability to field extra units. These Extras include:
Standard for command squad ? same points - not doing yet a no decent kasrkin based models about
Lascannon for platoon HQ (remove the flamers) ? HQ now costs 116
2 russes with hull HBs (can be either standard or exterminators) ?russes 165 each, exterminators 145 each
chimera for the vet squad 100pts
might drop meltas in HQ for normal troopers

 

in addition to this lot I will also need to model the following armoured fist squads for my armoured company im currently building, these are shown below and are to be worked on at a later date, but in addition to this I will also be modelling a second platoon command squad so the models can be used as a second platoon if I drop their chimeras to bolster the army up to 2000pts.

Here ate the Armoured fist of the squads I intend to model:
*****Squad 1 - rapid response*****
vet serg - plasma pistol + close combat weapon
1 melta gun
8 lasguns
chimera - auto cannon, hull HB, HK and smoke

*****Squad 2 - holding force*****
vet serg - storm bolter and close combat weapons
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
chimera - autocannon, hull HB, HK and smoke

any veiws on these two squads as well? and a potential command squad to lead them
im considering dropping my force commander and going for one with a powerfist from FW but thats a minor choice. everything else look ok?

cheers
millest

My definite suggestions: (guaranteed these are good changes to make)
Give the Honorifica Imperialis to the Platoon Officer and take Close Order Drill as your fifth doctrine. Cut the Commanding Officer's remaining gear and change the medic for a standard bearer. Use the points to upgrade your missile launchers in the infantry to lascannon. Run the lascannon and flamer sentinels in squadrons of one, using your remaining Fast Attack slots. Trade one of the Platoon Command Squad's meltas for a flamer and use the remaining points to upgrade the Infantry Grenade launcher to a plasma gun.

Other suggestions: (if allies are allowed, also depends if it fits how you see your army fighting)
You might consider cutting the Grenadier Sergeant upgrades for a single elite-slot Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with the Emperor's Tarot. You could cut some flamers/melta from the Platoon Command Squad to give him a Psycannon - 65 points for an untargettable heavy weapon plus an improved chance of getting the first turn. You can make other changes to your list using allies, but you'd have to change your doctrines a little. (ie DS Stormtroopers, a fourth Infantry Squad and a third Jr. Officer instead of Grenadiers)

HQ
Junior officer
bionics
Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
Storm bolter + power weapon
Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + medi-pac*
Unit total 116

This unit is a mess.

The Power Weapon will never be used. The Stormbolter shouldn't ever be used, as you should be hiding. The Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter don't match, not to mention that this 5-man unit should be hiding and providing leadership, not sitting in LOS and dying. You have no Standard Bearer.

This unit should cost you 81 points. 92 if you insist on the Medic.

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
3 sentinals
1 lascannon
2 flamer 40
armoured crew comps
Unit total 180

Jesus H. Christ on a pogo-stick.

You're not really taking a squad of 3 Sentinels and then mixing Lascannons and Heavy Flamers are you? And you're not actually wasting 45 points on Armoured Crew Compartments are you?

Firstly - weapons should be mixed if the compliment one another. The 48" S9 AP2 Lascannon does not compliment the R8" S5 AP4 Heavy Flamer. Furthermore they are AV10 walkers. Spending 15 points a piece on Armoured Crew Compartments doesn't make them harder to kill. All it does is make them worth 15 more VPs when they are killed.

If the CHQ was a mess, then this Sentinel Squadron is a disaster.

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
Storm bolter + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 136

This unit is almost the cost of a basic platoon. Why the Storm Bolter and Power Weapon? Or, to make the question more easily understandable - why a Two-Handed Weapon and a One-Handed Weapon? He either shoots or fights (feebly) in HTH. He cannot do both.

And if you want HTH Stormtroopers, take Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. They're better than Grenadiers because the Vet Sergeant can get a Thunderhammer.

That said, these units are huge, cost way to many points, and have absolutely no utility. 2 Plasma Guns and a Power Weapon, and no transport. The second unit is worse, with 2 Meltas.

Remember, these guys don't get Drop Troops or Infiltrate. They're footslogging into range with Meltaguns.

Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power fist + las pistol
2 meltas
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 135

That's a whole lot of points for 3 S6 I1 attacks. Complete waste of time.

Combined these squads are 407 points. You can almost afford a 45-man Platoon with 4 Lascannon and 4 Plasma Guns with that amount of points.

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + power weapon
Iron discipline
2 melta gun
2 flamer*
Unit total 83

Power Weapon on an I3 model with W1. He is never going to swing. And mixing Meltaguns with Flamers? WTF???

How long have you been playing 40K? No this is a serious question. How long?

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Missile Launchers are a waste of time. Autocannons kill things AV12 and below far more effectivley for the same points cost and Lascannons kill AV13 and AV14 better for +5 points more, and they hit just as often as ML's.

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Ditto.

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 grenade launcher
7 lasguns
Unit total 78

Grenade Launchers are junk. Take a Flamer and make the squad cheaper.

Tarantula battery
3 heavy bolter tarantulas

*blinks*

Umm... ok. Don't really know what sort of effect you think these BS2 guns are going to have, but anyway.

Overall this list is, quite frankly, a bloated mess. You've got 30 infantry, which is less than my Mechanised Force has. You have 3 super-overpriced squads of Really Expensive Guardsmen (Grenadiers and H-Vets) that will do nothing because they're footslogging (in the case of the Grenadiers), or they're too confused (Meltas... Power Fist... Shotgun... you hunting tanks, infantry or trying to get into HTH?). You've got power weapons and stormbolters galore, which makes no sense as the Stormbolters aren't that great and Guard don't fight in HTH.

And then there are those sentinels. A 1 Lascannon/2 Heavy Flamer squad. I never thought I'd see someone try and mix Flamers and Lascannons in the same squad - but you have done it. The Hellhound and Demolisher aren't so bad, but you need a second AV14 vehicle because right now your tanks are just targets.

On the bright side though, you didn't take Voxes.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/23/2006 10:39 PM

HQ
Junior officer
bionics
Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
Storm bolter + power weapon
Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + medi-pac*
Unit total 116

This unit is a mess.

The Power Weapon will never be used. The Stormbolter shouldn't ever be used, as you should be hiding. The Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter don't match, not to mention that this 5-man unit should be hiding and providing leadership, not sitting in LOS and dying. You have no Standard Bearer.

This unit should cost you 81 points. 92 if you insist on the Medic.

 

ok then, so after tearing the unit apart any actual suggestions? what weapons would work togther or for the commander? lots of hacking apart but no constructive info

they arent getting a standrard for 2 reasons. 1 gw dont make a nice kasrkin one, though may convert one later, 2 why would the inquisition want a sodding great flag waving at the front to advertise themselves?

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
3 sentinals
1 lascannon
2 flamer 40
armoured crew comps
Unit total 180

Jesus H. Christ on a pogo-stick.

You're not really taking a squad of 3 Sentinels and then mixing Lascannons and Heavy Flamers are you? And you're not actually wasting 45 points on Armoured Crew Compartments are you?

Firstly - weapons should be mixed if the compliment one another. The 48" S9 AP2 Lascannon does not compliment the R8" S5 AP4 Heavy Flamer. Furthermore they are AV10 walkers. Spending 15 points a piece on Armoured Crew Compartments doesn't make them harder to kill. All it does is make them worth 15 more VPs when they are killed.

If the CHQ was a mess, then this Sentinel Squadron is a disaster.

surely hiding the lascannon in with the flamers (which add support in city fight is a good thing?) helps take the heat off it. as this is a city fight the flamers should be useful? failing that autocannons a better option? again plenty of criticism but not ber constructive!

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
Storm bolter + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 136

This unit is almost the cost of a basic platoon. Why the Storm Bolter and Power Weapon? Or, to make the question more easily understandable - why a Two-Handed Weapon and a One-Handed Weapon? He either shoots or fights (feebly) in HTH. He cannot do both.

And if you want HTH Stormtroopers, take Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. They're better than Grenadiers because the Vet Sergeant can get a Thunderhammer.

That said, these units are huge, cost way to many points, and have absolutely no utility. 2 Plasma Guns and a Power Weapon, and no transport. The second unit is worse, with 2 Meltas.

Remember, these guys don't get Drop Troops or Infiltrate. They're footslogging into range with Meltaguns.

their using models i have and would like to use, at a later date i might upgrade them to =I= stormies but at present i dont have enough standard ig to make 2 troops choices

Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power fist + las pistol
2 meltas
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 135

That's a whole lot of points for 3 S6 I1 attacks. Complete waste of time.

Combined these squads are 407 points. You can almost afford a 45-man Platoon with 4 Lascannon and 4 Plasma Guns with that amount of points.

might be a waste of time but with drop troops in to the middle of a tau army  quite nasty. not to mention kasrkin models with shotguns look sweet.

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + power weapon
Iron discipline
2 melta gun
2 flamer*
Unit total 83

Power Weapon on an I3 model with W1. He is never going to swing. And mixing Meltaguns with Flamers? WTF???

apart from slagging it off why not offer an alternative? i had the idea of covering both antitank with it and the flamers for close defence in ruins etc

How long have you been playing 40K? No this is a serious question. How long?

how long have you been dealing with people? no serious question? talking to people this way even over the anonimity of the internet is amazingly rude and slightly disgusting!

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Missile Launchers are a waste of time. Autocannons kill things AV12 and below far more effectivley for the same points cost and Lascannons kill AV13 and AV14 better for +5 points more, and they hit just as often as ML's.

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Ditto.

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 grenade launcher
7 lasguns
Unit total 78

Grenade Launchers are junk. Take a Flamer and make the squad cheaper.

actually something i probably agree with! and amazingly some actual advice not ust harsh critisism! im impressed. still undecided as whether to go with 2 las cannons or 1 las and 1 auto. im guessing as you havent slated it you have no problems with the plasma guns?

Tarantula battery
3 heavy bolter tarantulas

*blinks*

Umm... ok. Don't really know what sort of effect you think these BS2 guns are going to have, but anyway.

their there to fill some decent anti infantry and also to fill some points using models i have, and im sure and inquisitor has the ability to drop a few in via valks before the troops to soften up the enemy!

Overall this list is, quite frankly, a bloated mess. You've got 30 infantry, which is less than my Mechanised Force has. You have 3 super-overpriced squads of Really Expensive Guardsmen (Grenadiers and H-Vets) that will do nothing because they're footslogging (in the case of the Grenadiers), or they're too confused (Meltas... Power Fist... Shotgun... you hunting tanks, infantry or trying to get into HTH?). You've got power weapons and stormbolters galore, which makes no sense as the Stormbolters aren't that great and Guard don't fight in HTH.

And then there are those sentinels. A 1 Lascannon/2 Heavy Flamer squad. I never thought I'd see someone try and mix Flamers and Lascannons in the same squad - but you have done it.

so ok then how do i improve it? i arent dropping the greniders and vets as i have the models and dont have enough ig figures at the moment.

The Hellhound and Demolisher aren't so bad, but you need a second AV14 vehicle because right now your tanks are just targets.

this seems like overly harsh critisism that is really over the top! so far youve been the only person to not like the list for what it is, a fluff based list, and by god have you let me know!!! i appreciate the list has issues but could some manners have been used in expressing those thoughts on it?

millest

Millest,

What ya wanna do is to playtest the lists you like, then go with them. If a particular heavy/special or special/special combo makes you happy, then go with it. With any units or characters the only question is post battle, "did they earn their points?"

If you remember this, play some friendlies then start working on more serious lists. Trial and error, the ONLY way to write a list.

The same goes too with either units or models you like. When you put them in your list, ask about effect and can you justify to YOURSELF to incluse the units again. Who are your main opponants armies? Can you kill them before the close too quickly and begin chomping through your forces?

IIRC guard are the "OMG they're charging us - Fire!!" type army, which most other armies try to close with on their terms. Have you thought about basically swamping your opponant before they get a chance to get their own combat elements into the mix.

Also, as you stated in your post above, take any constructive advice, ignore anything else as pointess.

Maybe new to Dakka, but am a vet 40Ker, mainly marines though

Cheers

It seems the suggestions given so far turn your fluff based guard army into a boring, overplayed guard army. Every guard list posted here gets ripped apart because it doesn't follow a rigid, competitive design.

I agree w/ gregor, take your guard and test it out. You may find that you want to split sentinels up, reassign weapons, etc. etc. All of the decisions are yours to make.

cheers for the consturctive feedback guys, my bigest problems are pretty simple:

#1 - i play for fluff and fun, i dont play to be over competative and power game

#2 - i plan lists to model and build my fluff based armies too - though i hope to use units in other forces too

#3 - i dont have much cash to buy models so i make do with what i have.

#4 - i like to make use of the models i have - eg the vets and grens, thier all exsisting kasrkin models i have that are ready or convertd, same with the HQ choice, so rather then for get them i like to use them

now ive been looking through the recent white dwarf uk318 and came across the IG list in the bat rep in this, now this army is somewhat similar to mine with a few odd differences, now this army is only 1500 points like mine and is somewhat similar, has three tanks some sentinals and some unites. the thing i find intersting is HMBC moans i dont have enough troops, well this army only has 67 where as my planned force has 70! therefore in theroy surely my force is already superior?
the WD army has 3 tanks, mines the same. the WD army has 2 sentinals, mine has 3 (rejiggered as below) so again surely mine is superior? now below is a re hashed list taking some of the points mentioned above and lets see what the concensus on this FLUFF BASED non power gamer army:

DOCTRINES
Grenadiers
Iron discipline
Close order drill
Drop troops

HQ
Junior officer
*Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
*bolt pistol + power weapon
*Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + medi-pac*
Frag grenades
Unit total 117

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
1 lascannon sentinal
Unit total 55

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power fist + las pistol
2 meltas
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 135

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
Storm bolter + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 136 - inc free frag and krak nades

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131 - inc free frag and krak nades

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + power weapon
Iron discipline
las guns
2 flamer*
Unit total 63

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 meltagun
7 lasguns
Unit total 78

FAST ATTACK
Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50


HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

Basilisk*
Indirect fire
Unit total 125

AMRY TOTAL 1400

 

so there we have a slightly rehashed army saving myself 100pts and been in my eyes more competative then the WD army that does rather well! with this extra 100pts i could include things like the tarantulas to rep slaved or predropped weapons (and to add extra punch), sanctioned psykers (seems as its an =I= based force fluff wise), a second vets squad or even a specials weapon squad attached to the HQ. options for these 100pts are appreciated. mind you the FW commander is tempting to include, yes i know it means paying for a never use power fist but for the look its worth it.

other options availible are to increase the list to 1750 and include 3 chimeras for my vets and greniders - bugger only have 2 models though, mind you deep strike the vets and give the grens the ride!!!!! the ideas there!
so any more thoughts on this redesigned weapons fit list?

millest

If you play for fluff, don't post your list here. Post it somewhere else, because frankly, no one cares what you put together unless you want it improved for competetive play. The self-aggrandizement of posting your for fun list and then snapping at anyone who actually tells you how to make it better.
Hell, I have a 1500 point, completely fluffy guard heavy weapon regiment list that will literally fire more heavy weapon shots per turn than you have models. It is perfectly fluffy, metagame dependent competitively, but I don't bother posting it, because it is entirely for fun.

Millest...

I respect your desire to create a fluffy "different" sort of list. Sometimes it's fun to take the "path less taken" and do something different to see how it works out on the table. If that's your goal, then go for it, and don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.

However, the purpose of this forum, as I have observed, is to help hone tournament-capable armies. HBMC, in his own way, did his best to help you do that. If you want advice on how to build a stronger IG army, he's a good resource. So are many others here. If you don't like what they tell you, then try to accept it, and just make the changes you want to make.

In order to survive here, and learn, you need to grow a thick skin. Get started, because it's worth it.

Sorry to butt in here, but I thought the purpose of a forum was to help people with what they needed? Millest.... Maybe you should have explained what you were after a bit clearer, and included that your regular opponants are Tau With Kroot, and Marines.

You want a fluff driven, usable army that can take these two opponants, right?

If people don't want to or can't help, then maybe they should leave your threads clear of stuff that really rude and inflamatory.

You said in your previous post that you play cityfight a lot? Maybe you should stick with flamer as IIRC they are fairly powerful over "standard" 40K games.

The one thing I will advise to change is a vetran sargeant with stormbolter. If you can swar the weapon out for something like a hellpistol you'll gain more in attacks, and with guard especially, the attacks you make, the more likely you are to kill things.

Hope this helps

#1 - i play for fluff and fun, i dont play to be over competative and power game

Implying that 'fluff/fun' and 'competative' are mutuality exclusive and that 'competative'and 'power gaming' are the same thing. This is, of course, a load of nonsense.

You can have a fluffy list without sacrificing efficiency and 'power'. You don't have to powergame to have a good list.

#3 - i dont have much cash to buy models so i make do with what i have.

Whilst this is fair enough, don't try to blame bad wargear choices and general list 'bloat' on models. There are some things that aren't always model-dependant, and those things you can fix.

now ive been looking through the recent white dwarf uk318 and came across the IG list in the bat rep in this, now this army is somewhat similar to mine with a few odd differences, now this army is only 1500 points like mine and is somewhat similar, has three tanks some sentinals and some unites.

White Dwarf is a bad yard stick to compare yourself to. The lists they show in BatReps, assuming they aren't illegal, are often a random collection units with no cohesion to link them together into a complete army. 

the thing i find intersting is HMBC moans i dont have enough troops, well this army only has 67 where as my planned force has 70! therefore in theroy surely my force is already

Case in point. A Guard army at 1500 with less than 100 models is not a Guard army. You play Guard. Guard are a horde army, much like Orks and 'Nids, except unlike those to your job is to shoot rather than swam into HTH. Just barley equally the numbers of an Eldar army when your troops are 6 points each is bad.

HQ
Junior officer
*Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
*bolt pistol + power weapon
*Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + medi-pac*
Frag grenades
Unit total 117

Frags? What? Why are you charging enemy troops in cover with this unit? This unit is the centre of your force - the glue that holds the (low numbered) battle line together. Putting a HB into the unit tempts you onto putting them into LOS of the enemy, and if your opponent is half-way clever he'll annihilate this 117 point 5-model unit in a single shooting phase, robbing you of your 12" Ld9 Iron Discipline radius.

As far as a Standard Bearer goes, stop being so narrow minded. It doesn't have to be a bloody great flag. You can make it something Inquisitorial, an Inquisitorial Icon, a giant rubber ducky - I don't care. My point is that giving your (few) troops a re-roll at Ld9 when they're within 12" of this unit will stop your (small amoutn of) men from running away.

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
1 lascannon sentinal
Unit total 55

Good. You lost the bload (armoured crew compartment) and didn't mix it with guns that do completely the opposite.

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power fist + las pistol
2 meltas
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 135

This unit still doesn't know what it's doing. Is it hunting tanks, fighting infantry, or trying to get its power fist into HTH? Contrary to what you might think, units that attempt to do anti-tank, anti-infantry and assault at the same time are neither 'flexible' nor 'useful'. All they are is 'confused'. You have 6 turns to make a difference, and there are very few units in the game that can do a bit of everything effectivley - H-Vets are not one of these units. Pick a single role and stick with it.

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
Storm bolter + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 136 - inc free frag and krak nades

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131 - inc free frag and krak nades

The problems with these units should be readily apparent.

1. Stormbolter + Power Weapon = silly config. Why rob your Sergeant of +1 by taking a glorified bolter? Why take a HTH weapon on a unit that shoots? Why take Grenadiers at all when Inquisi Stormies are better...
2. How are these squads getting into range? I don't see how they're going to do anything besides lose half their (expensive) number on the way there.

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + power weapon
Iron discipline
las guns
2 flamer*
Unit total 63

Not terrible. Power Weapon is a waste of course, as S3 power weapons on T3 I3 W1 IC's just means that it'll never swing.

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Both fine. Good use of points. Heavy 2 offsets the BS3 of Guardsmen. 3 S7 shots at 24", 4 at 12".

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 meltagun
7 lasguns
Unit total 78

In the last list your Command Squad had 2 Meltas and 2 Flamers. My suggestion would be to put the Meltas into the Command Section and give this squad a flamer. The reasons are simple:

1. Heavy Bolter/Melta is a really bad config. It's a 36" range anti-infantry gun paired with a 6" range anti-tank gun. Not good. The Flamer doesn't have much more of a range, but it makes the squad cheap and can be used as a throwaway unit if possible.
2. The Command section is 5 wounds. 5 wounds tied to 2 Meltas Deep Striking means that you don't lose much when they die. The single Melta surrounded by 10 men is not as good as that, so put the Meltas in the CS and the Flamer in the squad.

FAST ATTACK
Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

Heh. Nice. Hellhounds are distracting, and Autocannons on Sentinels are threatening enough to take some heat away from elsehwere, but not as obvious as Lascannon Sentinels.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

I still fear for the survivability of this single AV14 target.

I'll say more when I'm home.

BYE

I was hoping to see a 15,400 point list - that is a lot of wargear

i do find the veiw that this list isnt for fluff and the spirit of the game, i know the two things arent mutually exclusive but it just seems that people arent interested in people reasons behine creating a slightly underpowered army!
any way after taking HBMCs much more constructive critisism on board ive come up with the following:

DOCTRINES
Grenadiers
Iron discipline
Close order drill
Drop troops

HQ
Junior officer
*Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
*bolt pistol + power weapon
*Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + standard
Unit total 112

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
1 lascannon sentinal
Unit total 55

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power weapon + las pistol
2 flamers
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 112

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
bolt pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 132 - inc free frag and krak nades

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131 - inc free frag and krak nades

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + chainsword
Iron discipline
las guns
2 meltas*
Unit total 67

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 flamer
7 lasguns
Unit total 74

FAST ATTACK
Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50


HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

Basilisk*
Indirect fire
Unit total 125

Leman russ exterminator

Sponson bolter
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

AMRY TOTAL 1508

ok so working on more solutions, using models i have etc and including the extra armour im now 8 points over! an ideas on trimming it? i thought of dropping squad c down to 5 men and buying both russ varients a heavy stubber each!

any more suggestions?

millest

drop 1 power weapon?

i'd personally drop both of the H.Vet sgt's power weapons.

but that's me.

I do not know what happened to my text in that last message. I really hate this message board software. Why can't we all use the simple and elegant VBulletin Board...

Anyway.

HQ
Junior officer
*Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
*bolt pistol + power weapon
*Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + standard
Unit total 112

This unit is still 25 points more than it needs to be. You an insist on keeping the Power Weapon if you like, but, again, that Heavy Bolter is a problem.

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
1 lascannon sentinal
Unit total 55

Fine. It'll draw attention to itself, but use your Scout move properly and you could get some nice side armour shots. Could even Deep Strike it!

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power weapon + las pistol
2 flamers
7 shotguns
Frag grenades
Unit total 112

This unit still has a lot of problems. Firstly, Frag Grenades. It's another 10 points of bloat that can be better put to use elsewhere. Secondly, the Flamers are a major error.

I'm of the Guard 'School of Thought' that will always take more men over expensive toys. Any T3 W1 model that costs you more than 6 points better have a good reason for being there. H-Vets have BS4, so if I'm going to pay +2 points per model to get that BS4 then it should be put to work. Giving the unit Flamers goes against this. You've geared this unit more towards anti-infantry now, which is fine, so the Frags, Flamers and Power Weapon are letting the squad down. Ditching them to get a couple of Plasma Guns gives you better anti-infantry fire that uses the BS4 that you're paying for, and leaves you 7 points spare.

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
bolt pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 132 - inc free frag and krak nades

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131 - inc free frag and krak nades

I still don't know what these units are going to do with no transports. They're as manoeuvrable as dirt, have no range, and are very pricey. You can buy 3 Autocannon/Plasma Squads for the cost of these two units and still have 8 points to spare - and an extra 30 men and 3 Autocannons will make a difference. I'd really like to know how you intend to use these two squads as they just don't fit.

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + chainsword
Iron discipline
las guns
2 meltas*
Unit total 67

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 flamer
7 lasguns
Unit total 74

All fine.

FAST ATTACK
Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

Autocannon Sentinels are overpriced, but that's not your fault. Otherwise fine.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

Basilisk*
Indirect fire
Unit total 125

Leman russ exterminator
Sponson bolter
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 170

Exterminator? Heh. Nice. Lots of Anti-Infantry power.

Not including the two Storm Trooper squads, this list has about 64 points (nearly 5% of your army) tied up in stuff that really won't be of much use. Plus I think your maths is a bit off. A Demolisher with HB/Plasma/RTMs = 180 points, not 170. On the other hand, an Exterminator with HB/2HB/RTMs costs 140, not 170. In fact, when I run the list through Army Builder I get 1519 points.

I have a revision that I'll post later when I get the chance.

BYE

ok another rehash:

HQ
Junior officer
*Honorific imperialis (=I= orders)
*bolt pistol
*Iron discipline
1 plasma gun
1 heavy bolter team
1 vet + standard
Unit total 107

ASSIGEND SUPPORT
1 lascannon sentinal
Unit total 55

ELITES
Hardened Vets
Vet serg
Power weapon + las pistol
2 flamers
7 shotguns
Unit total 110

TROOPS
Grenadier squad 1
Vet serg
bolt pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 plasma
Unit total 132 - inc free frag and krak nades

Grenadier squad 2
Vet serg
Hell pistol + power weapon
7 storm troopers
2 melta
Unit total 131 - inc free frag and krak nades

Platoon Alpha
Junior officer
Bolt pistol + chainsword
Iron discipline
las guns
2 meltas*
Unit total 67

Squad 1
Serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 2
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 autocannon
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
Unit total 85

Squad 3
serg ? las pistol + cc
1 heavy bolter
1 flamer
7 lasguns
Unit total 74

FAST ATTACK
Hellhound*
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 120

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50

1 autocannon Sentinel
unit total 50


HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Demolisher*
Sponson plasma
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 180

Basilisk*
Indirect fire
Unit total 125

Leman russ exterminator

Sponson bolter
Hull HB
Rough terrain mod
Unit total 140


AMRY TOTAL 1511


ok then so thats another rehash - im quite likeing the look of it now. any ideas on the 11pts over though?
the reason im still sticking with the grenediers is at the moment i have the models and i cant afford to buy another 2 boxes of cads to fill out a troops choice so i plan on using the greniders as it gives me minimum troops choices and an excuse to get the models painted so i will be able to field them as deep striking inquisitional storm troopers later when i have been able to afford the extra choices.
if i play a 1750 game, which we used to do quite often (so considering alterning this to 1750pts instead of 1500 though that can wait) i can afford to stick them in chimeras and use that option, but other then those 2 anomalous squads of out-of-place-inquisitional-death is it all looking a bit better now?

on a side note when i build my next platoon i intend having it avalible for my armoured company as armoured fist squads (minus the platoon hq of course) and intend to model it as best as i can to fit this role so in addition to this list here are the Armoured fist of the squads I intend to model:

*****Squad 1 - rapid response*****
vet serg - plasma pistol + close combat weapon
1 melta gun
8 lasguns
chimera - auto cannon, hull HB, HK and smoke

*****Squad 2 - holding force*****
vet serg - storm bolter and close combat weapons
1 missile launcher
1 plasma gun
7 lasguns
chimera - autocannon, hull HB, HK and smoke

squad 1 to go in and tie up assualters, squad 2 to sit on an objective and shoot at anything stupid enough to come near!
any good or as bad as my initial list?

cheers
millest

Here is the army I made using yours as a frame:

Doctrines
     Regimental Organisation: Drop Troops
     Regimental Organisation: Grenadiers
     Skills and Drills: Close Order Drill
     Skills and Drills: Iron Discipline

Command Platoon (HQ) @ 136 Pts
     Command Squad @ 81 Pts
          Lasguns (x3); Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline
          Junior Officer @ 65 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol
               Honorifica Imperialis 25
          Veteran @ 11 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol; Standard Bearer

     1 Sentinel @ 55 Pts
          Lascannon

Hardened Veterans (Elites) @ 99 Pts
     Shotguns (x4); Plasma Guns (x3); Drop Trooper
     Hardened Veteran Sergeant @ 13 Pts
          Shotgun

Grenadiers @ 80 Pts
     Hellguns (x3); Plasma Gun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
     Grenadier Sergeant @ 10 Pts
          Close combat Weapon; HellPistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Grenadiers @ 80 Pts
     Hellguns (x3); Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
     Grenadier Sergeant @ 10 Pts
          Close combat Weapon; HellPistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 408 Pts
     Command Squad @ 86 Pts
          Meltagun (x4); Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline
          Junior Officer @ 41 Pts
               Bolt Pistol; Close combat Weapon

     Infantry Squad #1 @ 85 Pts
          Autocannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad #2 @ 85 Pts
          Autocannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Lasgun

     Infantry Squad @ 76 Pts
          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad @ 76 Pts
          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 51 Pts
     Autocannon
     Searchlight 1

Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 51 Pts
     Autocannon
     Searchlight 1

Hellhound (Fast Attack) @ 128 Pts
     Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
     Smoke Launchers 3
     Extra Armour 5
     Rough Terrain Modification 5

Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
     Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Demolisher (Heavy Support) @ 185 Pts
     Demolisher Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Plasma Cannon Sponsons
     Rough Terrain Modification 5
     Extra Armour 5

Leman Russ Exterminator (Heavy Support) @ 157 Pts
     Hull Heavy Bolter; Linked Autocannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons
     Rough Terrain Modification 5
     Extra Armour 5
     Pintle Heavy Stubber 12

Models in Army: 77
Total Army Cost: 1500

Still a very low model count and I don't know what the Grenadiers are actually going to do given how short ranged and slow they are, but that's the list as I would take it if I had to use that framework.

BYE

i actually like your list, the only issue i have is model count (been adding up and im about 10 models short for the 4th squad and a kasrkin with plasma for the vets) i think what i will do is build the list as my list, but using your command sqauds for now. then as i get some cash get another box of cadians then move over to your list. that way i get some games in and some experience to see what works and i get to build the models too!

it is looking like we're going to be playing 1750pt forces later so when that time comes i can increase vets and grens in your list to 10 man squads and give the grens chimeras, that way i can move them about a bit more.

so i think after the initial issues this has been productive its given me a:
1 - list for inital use,
2 - a HMBC special to work towards
3 - a potential 1750 list as well using my chimeras and left out vets and grens.

mind you i still think evntually when i get the models for the 4th guard squad and the two armoured fist squads i should scrape the models together for a cheap hq, make them a termpory platoon to fill up my requiered troops choices and then upgrade the grens to deepstricking inquisitional stormies!
that all sound like a good plan?
cheers
millest

p.s. any views on those armoured fist squads - from the angle of an armoured company?
cheers

the only issue i have is model count (been adding up and im about 10 models short for the 4th squad and a kasrkin with plasma for the vets)

I was aware that it had a larger model count to the original list, but I think that it would benefit from having that extra squad. It's another 10 men to put between the enemy and your more fragile and expensive units.

mind you i still think evntually when i get the models for the 4th guard squad and the two armoured fist squads i should scrape the models together for a cheap hq, make them a termpory platoon to fill up my requiered troops choices and then upgrade the grens to deepstricking inquisitional stormies!

Unfortunately, Inquisitorial Stormies cannot Deep Strike. The reason I say they are better than Grenadiers however is because Grenadiers take the price of a Stormtrooper, but none of the utility.

Stormies can Deep Strike, Infiltrate, or take a Transport. Inquisitorial Stormies cannot DS or Infiltrate, but they can get an alternate cheaper transport for 50 points, plus their Vet Sergeant has greater access to more interesting pieces of wargear (the aforementioned Thunder Hammer). Grenadiers can't do any of that - all they can get is a Chimera. That's why I don't like them.

p.s. any views on those armoured fist squads - from the angle of an armoured company?

For an armoured company? No. ACs are all about AV14 hulls. For a normal army, a couple of them riding along side your Hellhounds would be very nice.

BYE

good point bout the =I= troopers forgot that. so due to cost issues i think its gonna be the following list:

Doctrines
Regimental Organisation: Drop Troops
Regimental Organisation: Grenadiers
Skills and Drills: Close Order Drill
Skills and Drills: Iron Discipline

Command Platoon (HQ) @ 136 Pts
Command Squad @ 81 Pts
Lasguns (x3); Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline
Junior Officer @ 65 Pts
Close combat Weapon; Laspistol
Honorifica Imperialis 25
Veteran @ 11 Pts
Close combat Weapon; Laspistol; Standard Bearer

1 Sentinel @ 55 Pts
Lascannon

Hardened Veterans (Elites) @ 110 Pts
Shotguns (x7); Plasma Guns (x2); Drop Trooper
Hardened Veteran Sergeant
power weapons + bolt pistol

Grenadiers @ 112 Pts
Hellguns (x7); Plasma Gun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
Grenadier Sergeant @ 10 Pts
Close combat Weapon; HellPistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Grenadiers @ 112 Pts
Hellguns (x7); Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
Grenadier Sergeant @ 10 Pts
Close combat Weapon; HellPistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 408 Pts
Command Squad @ 86 Pts
Meltagun (x4); Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline
Junior Officer @ 41 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close combat Weapon

Infantry Squad #1 @ 85 Pts
Autocannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
Sergeant @ 6 Pts
Laspistol and CCW

Infantry Squad #2 @ 85 Pts
Autocannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
Sergeant @ 6 Pts
Lasgun

Infantry Squad @ 76 Pts
Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
Sergeant @ 6 Pts
Laspistol and CCW


Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 51 Pts
Autocannon
Searchlight 1

Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 51 Pts
Autocannon
Searchlight 1

Hellhound (Fast Attack) @ 128 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers 3
Extra Armour 5
Rough Terrain Modification 5

Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Demolisher (Heavy Support) @ 185 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Plasma Cannon Sponsons
Rough Terrain Modification 5
Extra Armour 5

Leman Russ Exterminator (Heavy Support) @ 157 Pts
Hull Heavy Bolter; Linked Autocannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Rough Terrain Modification 5
Extra Armour 5
Pintle Heavy Stubber 12

Models in Army: 77 - still
Total Army Cost: 1499

 

that way we combine the best bits (well mostly your best bits and my stubborn bits) and get a list with the same model count with out me having to buy some more models at the moment  - which some people who have posted in this thread will know is impossible, its also 1pt cheaper (like thats a big deal! lol) and gives me the option at a later date to upgrade when i can afford the models for a 4th squad or even a whole second platoon using my armoured fist models when i can save up to buy them, which in turn means i get =I= stomies in cheapass rhinos! su-flaming-purb! - if we're going 1750/2000pts.

i was also asked about the validity of the exterminator and the option been a FW option now! would it be too beardy of me if worst comes to worse to say that its a troops choice, an allied unit from the armoured company list? ruleswise i cant see any problem with that but i might be wrong! any veiws.

point taken on AF squads, speed hump will probably remain the same but the other unit will get an AC instead of the missle launcher and might have to rethink my vet sergs.

all i can say is im now glad i posted my list on dakka again!

cheers

millest

any one got any more views or improvements on this?
would it be worth swapping the bassie for a second hellhound?
cheers
millest

I would say test it with the Basilisk first. It's a good utility weapon and gives you a lot of options as far as targets go. However, if you find that your Hellhound is drawing too much attention to itself by being alone, and you can live without the indirect fire, then get another Hellhound.

BYE